folding kings pre-flop?

[sjm20 0]

I haven't read the entire topic yet but something crossed my mind about the way the hand played out.Preflop UTG moves all in for 400 on top of the blind, the chip leader makes a pretty basic call for <10% of his stack to knock someone out and pick up another 10 BBs. Here's my question to you. What were your chances of calling with the Kings and having him check it down the whole way??I think in this situation you're almost guaranteed to get called with any Ace as with 900 already in the pot, you're adding another 1300 and the Chip Leader is calling 1300 to win 2100 early in a SnG. Effectively he is down to 4000 if he loses the pot which is still more than double the average. So you are running into a must call which might not be a good thing for you as he very well might have been sitting on a baby Ace. I think if this was my play I would have just called the all - in and pushed on the flop as I assume he probably would have checked to you as long as an Ace did not hit. I don't know about the rest of you, but unless I flop the nuts in a multi-way all-in pot, there's no way I'm gonna bluff out a hand that might eliminate someone.So in essence, stop and go might have been the way to go. Just my two cents tho-sm

[Fnava621 0]

What were your chances of calling with the Kings and having him check it down the whole way?? slim to none...he had overplayed AK, AQ a couple times and i was certain he would lead out...plus why would i want to check it down?This is my problem with callin.. if an ace hits, do i check? he will mostlikely bet out with JJ or QQ at this spot and if i throw out a feeler bet and he re-raises i? is folding automatic to a reraise? because i blindly put him on an ace. is it not possible for him to have other possible callin hand- 1010,JJ,QQ,etc

[kapsig08 0]

this hand happen in a tournament buy in (50+5) i have a little above average(avg-1700) i have 1900 in chips. blinds at this point 25-50. Utg+1 raises all in to about 450 the chip leader has who has 5500 calls in the cutoof seat. What is my play here? i think there is only two here move in or fold... what do u guys think? can u fold here?

Not a chance you can lay this down, jesus christ

[lboarts 0]

This is a smooth call situation if ever I've seen one, and I'm sticking by that.  Any other move here is foolish, IMHO.OP, I hope this thread has helped you.  The one thing everyone seems to agree with is that folding pf here is NOT an option.For those last couple posters that advocating pushing all in, please read this entire thread, especially OP's last post.

Read your own signature.

Scared money never wins, but stupid money always loses.

[bdams19 0]

You guys keep saying stop and go, but it doesn't make sense to me. How is this the best play? If the chip leader has TT-QQ here, flop comes Axx, how is this helping you? The A on the flop will either make you outplay yourself, or kill your action if he decides to check to you. The chipleader ended up having QQ as the OP said, and this makes absolutely no sense to call and see if an ace flops in a spot where you can get a huge amount of chips.

[bdams19 0]

Scared money never wins, but stupid money always loses.

Ok, then keep folding KK in every SNG spot where someone has you covered.

[lboarts 0]

You guys keep saying stop and go, but it doesn't make sense to me.  How is this the best play?  If the chip leader has TT-QQ here, flop comes Axx, how is this helping you?  The A on the flop will either make you outplay yourself, or kill your action if he decides to check to you.  The chipleader ended up having QQ as the OP said, and this makes absolutely no sense to call and see if an ace flops in a spot where you can get a huge amount of chips.

The MAIN purpose for calling is to ensure you're not risking you're entire trny life without the best hand. With the large stack in the hand, and given his odds and the size of his stack, he is more than likely going to call. Seeing the flop allows you to get away from your hand if the flop is scary. If the flop is rags, then pushing post flop gives you a much stronger chance that the large stack will fold his hand, having already seen 3/5 of the board. The goal in this hand, in this situation, should be to survive it first, win it second.

[bdams19 0]

As much as I understand what you're saying, I have to respectfully disagree. I just think folding to an A high board here is too weak, if you have the best hand put the pressure on the big stack. The short stack can be pushing with anything here.

[sjm20 0]

It sounds like you're looking for blind advice here. Every suggestion brought up you have had an answer for. I understand as I have been in a lot of spots like this before. Last night in a (50) SnG I'm on the bubble and I picked up KK. I raised about 6x the BB and got called by the chip leader. The flop came K 9 7 all spades. He put me all in, I called, he had A5 spades. Board never paired....Regardless of what he has against me, or the chip leader has against you, all you can do is make a smart decision. The way you've been talking you're changing the value of his hand with every post. (i.e. what if, well then, how about) What if the flop comes KQQ and he has QQ then. You need to put him on a range of hands and narrow down the read throughout the hand. If he fires, you have a decision to make. All I was trying to say earlier was that you are putting your chips into a must call situation. Just calling pre-flop gives you a chance to protect the rest of your chips. Pushing isn't a bad idea either, but you're going to get called 8/10 times in this spot with any ace. You can probably assume the guy UTG moved in with a low pocket pair to attempt to steal the blinds, with a really big hand I think he would have just raised. In response to why would you want to check it down? If you bluff out the best hand, you're letting the small stack get a free 1350 chips by not letting another hand draw out on him. If the short stack raised with A2, and you push out A10 on the flop with your KK, when that Ace hits on the river you let the small stack not only win the pot, but you let him have a bigger stack than you have. I'm a huge fan of checking a pot down unless I really know I have the hand won. Remember, once your money goes in the pot, if there is not a side pot all three of you are competing for the same pot. Just because the UTG guy was all-in doesn't mean he can't benefit from you betting...

[bdams19 0]

You don't want the chip leader to call you with Ax here?

[asorewinner 0]

its early a you say...the chip leader early is usually not the best player...he usually splashed around and caught some cards....given the situation, he is likely still doing that....he might KJ, KQ, 88 etc...if you reraise all-in he will likely fold any hand other than AA.....if he has any ace, your chances improve, especially if utg1 has an acerag as well...this is not even close to an obvious KK v AA situation....push in, if you get beat, so what, no oshame in going broke with KK....you mentioned you are playing to win....NO YOU ARENT..they way you describe, you are playing NOT TO LOSE.....suck it up, go all-in.

[lboarts 0]

As much as I understand what you're saying, I have to respectfully disagree.  I just think folding to an A high board here is too weak, if you have the best hand put the pressure on the big stack.  The short stack can be pushing with anything here.

That's fine. We're all entitled to our own opinions, and I respect yours, while not agreeing with it.I have one question for you, and I hope I am not coming across as a smartass: Do you play cash games more, trnys more, or about the same of both. The only reason I ask is because if this was a cash game, I'd push all in pf here and hope for the best, knowing I can always reload if I lost the hand. That said, in a rebuy trny during the rebuy period I would push all in pf as well.I am strictly a trny player online, I only play cash games live. One of the main differences in my approach is that in a cash game, I'm trying to win every pot I play, whereas in trnys I'm only trying to win the last hand. For me, trnys are all about survival, and I'll lay down KK if an A flops and someone pushes hard. I do it all the time, and it's served me quite well.

[Razor 0]

I think the correct play here boils down to how confident you are in your post flop play. If you think your opponent is a better player than you and that there is a good chance he will out play you after the flop, then push and hope your hand holds up. However, this being said I believe the correct play for an above average player (I'm not talking about myself here) is to smooth call and then play the flop accordingly. My reason for thinking this is because you don't want to let an A hang around to the river giving your opponent five chances to hit an Ace. For instance, say you are up against A,K or A,Q A,J A,10 or any suited ace for that matter, with his deep stack the chip leader is likely going to call you and in doing so he/she is going to get to see 5 cards to try an hit an Ace. If you just smooth call, and push ..... after the flop completely misses him/her, I think you have a much better chance at getting your opponent to fold.Just a lot less risk in smooth calling ... IMO.

[Krafty 0]

This is a smooth call situation if ever I've seen one, and I'm sticking by that.  Any other move here is foolish, IMHO.

This makes absolutely no sense to me.....I think a call might be the worst play of all here.If this hand played out like the OP stated:1) Small stack moves in for 450 2) Huge stack (5000+) only calls for 450, and as stated by OP has been playing looseThen you're absolutely throwing away a golden opportunity to win a decent pot or quite possibly double up and then some.Since the 1st all-in came from a short stack, his range of hands to move in here would be monstrous....anywhere from Ace-small to any pocket pair. In almost every situation here you are at worst a 2:1 favorite up to possibly a 4:1 favorite.Secondly, the big stack probably recognized that the short stack could be pushing with a huge range of hands so i would venture to guess that he would call 450 (less than 10% of his stack) with any hand A-Big through any pair down to 6's (he is loose after all) So again, you can't possibly put this guy on a monster hand here, and quite frankly there is only 1 hand to be afraid of PF. Even if he calls, you are highly likely to be a 2:1 favorite all the way up to a 4:1 favorite again for the side pot. Maybe a few times out of 100 you're a 4:1 dog to Aces here....not enough to even consider particularly with online play and no easy tells to pick up on.More than likely though, if the big stack has a mediocre hand like AJos or small pocket pairs, he will at LEAST have to consider folding and probably will. If you only call here, you give the big stack a great chance to flop a hidden hand that you will bust out on anyways, for instance:Flop comes 5 7 J, he checks and you bet half your remainng stack and he reraises you all in with his 5-5....how can you fold now that you've committed 75% of your chips to this hand? It would have been a lot tougher decision to have to call your additional 1300 pre-flop with a small pair don't you think?So the two scenarios if you move all-in:1) you push in over the top and big stack folds: You invest 450 to win a pot of 975.....2-1 on your money when you're holding KK's sounds good to me.2) you push in over the top and big stack calls: you're in position to double through and be a large stack in the tournament just when the blinds start to get significant. This will give you the leverage to start making some moves and accumulate chips as everyone starts to tighten up and wait for better hands.IMHO, you can't be afraid of losing in this situation, you are WAY the favorite too many times in this scenario to do anything but move in over the top here. Now if you held a hand like J-J....then you have yourself a much more delicate postion....

[bdams19 0]

That's fine.  We're all entitled to our own opinions, and I respect yours, while not agreeing with it.I have one question for you, and I hope I am not coming across as a smartass:  Do you play cash games more, trnys more, or about the same of both.  The only reason I ask is because if this was a cash game, I'd push all in pf here and hope for the best, knowing I can always reload if I lost the hand.  That said, in a rebuy trny during the rebuy period I would push all in pf as well.I am strictly a trny player online, I only play cash games live.  One of the main differences in my approach is that in a cash game, I'm trying to win every pot I play, whereas in trnys I'm only trying to win the last hand.  For me, trnys are all about survival, and I'll lay down KK if an A flops and someone pushes hard.  I do it all the time, and it's served me quite well.

While I am a cash game player, I do play tournies and sngs. However, our styles are different. I know tournaments are about survival, but if i have a chance where i am garaunteed at least 2:1 to more than double up I'm going to take it. I am not putting him on aces, and I wouldn't be surprised if the short stack and the chip leader both shared an ace with their Ax. There aren't many spots where you can amass these kind of chips, and you will become chip leader if you win. The question was legit, I'm not afraid to say I'm mostly a cash game player, but that should not be mistaken for someone who doesn't know how to play tournaments.

[lboarts 0]

Krafty, that may be the most compelling argument I've heard yet for pushing all in pf.One question: If the large stack was sitting on a mediocre hand, wouldn't he raise the all in and try to push out everyone else so he stands a better chance of winning the hand? If I were in his position, with people left to act behind me, I would certainly try to get it to HU if I had a mediocre hand. If I were sitting on a monster, then I would just smooth call, hoping to get some side action going. Just a thought.

[Nutcracker 0]

Calling preflop here is absolutely horrible. By letting him see a flop with his hand, you give him a chance to see if he can beat you before committing many chips to the pot. I'd rather my opponent not know what the first 3 cards are going to be before deciding whether to put an extra 1000 into this pot.

One question: If the large stack was sitting on a mediocre hand, wouldn't he raise the all in and try to push out everyone else so he stands a better chance of winning the hand? If I were in his position, with people left to act behind me, I would certainly try to get it to HU if I had a mediocre hand. If I were sitting on a monster, then I would just smooth call, hoping to get some side action going. Just a thought.

Possibly, or perhaps his hand is so mediocre that he wants to give himself the option of folding in case the blinds or button actually has a decent hand.This also strengthens the idea that you need to push all in preflop, because he could be just calling here with such a wide range of hands that you will have no visibility postflop. You say you'd push the flop if no ace came and the board didn't pair. I hope you realize the most common hand that cracks big pp is 2 pair. He could easily have QJ, JT, almost any suited connector, and almost any pair. The flop comes JT5 and he could have JT or 55 or even JJ or TT. Why give him the opportunity to flop a good hand before deciding how many chips to put in? That's absolutely the worst advice I've seen in a while.

[Elpedro 0]

folding here is terrible because it is quite possible that both of these guys are holding high ace hands like AK or AQ - or any other pocket pair. If they both hold solitary aces then they only have 2 outs (not including flush and straight cards) - if they have an underpair which is also very possible then you're still dominating them. YOU MUST MOVE IN.

[Fnava621 0]

thanks for all the advice guys

[HurricaneKyle 0]

The right play here depends entirely on the big stack and what kind of player he is. If he is a super loose-aggressive player, go ahead and raise because you have the best of it.Chances are with a bunch of chips that he'll want to jump in the water with you. Pocket Kings are completely different than 99-JJ, it is a fine hand that will rarely come into contact with AA preflop. There is a play I like to make on occasion(not often) with KK and AA. This works well against tight players who bet flops aggressively. Lets say his hand range is AK,AQ,AJ,AT,KQ,KJ and QJ in similar situations. Then let the flop come and hope that he pairs his hand(obviously if the ace comes then you have to hit the break and show the hand down.). So if the flop is Q54 for example, and he bets throw in a sizable raise. Few players can get away from top pair on that flop. This can be a dangerous play, so don't do smoothcall much, but you have to mix up your play sometimes. Folding preflop is not a choice in this particular hand.

[SapphireTiger 0]

i'm surprised this is getting so much debate. It's good that you're talking about it and all but i really feel that there is some bad advice given.against a random opponenthands down...you push. it's the most +EV move.

[TwistedEcho 0]

I would call here and see the flop. Barring an A or a pair on the flop, you should be safe to move all in here. If large stack catches an o-e or a flush draw, he may gamble and call you. Pushing all in pf is only asking to get called by AK, AQ, etc. See the flop is what I would do.

This is horrible advice. Why would you want to smooth call here? Say he has TT, JJ, QQ etc and an ace folds, you bet he folds, or you play stupidly weak and let him bluf you. If you move allin preflop, he calls and you nearly triple upi honestly cannot see any reason to suggest any move other than allin here - him calling with AK, AQ is a reason to push, not to call.

[chindi 0]

what's wrong with just calling here? I say call and if the flop is not very scary then move it in. However, if an Ace flops you can fold and still have about 1200 or so left which is still a decent stack at 25-50 blinds.

Cause if you just call and an ace flops the big stacks going to bet at you anyway to make you fold?There is one hand that worries you here: AA. The Big Stack smooth calling there is fairly unlikely to have it. If you raise him all in he may just call you with AQ At etc, but he's not going to do that post flop if everything misses. Sometimes the most profitable hands have the narrowest edges. Which is pretty much the best thing you can ask for there. Is it possible you'll get beat? Sure. But tournament play is all about pushing your edges when you have them.Folding here is weak/tight. Calling here is pretty weak but it's in line with some people's style. I'd rather not give the big stack a chance to hit a monster cheaply.

[Elpedro 0]

what's wrong with just calling here? I say call and if the flop is not very scary then move it in. However, if an Ace flops you can fold and still have about 1200 or so left which is still a decent stack at 25-50 blinds.

Folding here is weak/tight. Calling here is pretty weak but it's in line with some people's style. I'd rather not give the big stack a chance to hit a monster cheaply.

Folding here is not an option.

[UNCpoker 0]

Well I think 99% of us agree that folding is not an option.I can see valid points for calling and pushing if the flop agrees and going all-in pre-flop.I don't think either move is bad depending on your goals in the game, your playing style and of course what you know about the big stack.Very nice debate though, one of the better ones I have seen in a long time on here.Another thing may be to switch up how you play this hand, alternating between the two. I may have missed it, but how many players were left to act after you with KK?