big discussion hand

[SapphireTiger 0]

$25 cash game .10/.25 NLHEWe all have deep stacks as people kept buying in. All players involve have about $40-$50 in front of themHero in SB with (As, Qs)3 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.50, BB folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.Pot size: 6.25Flop: Jh, 5c, 6cHero bets $3.00, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO callsPot Size: $15.25Turn: 2sHero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets $5.00, Hero raises to $12.00, MP3 folds CO callsPot Size: $39.25River: KsHero checks, CO checks------------------------------------------------------------------------Discuss

[gobears 0]

Why are you re-raising the turn with A high and no draw?CO might not have anything but you don't either - I think that I fold at this point.

[LuckyMcCatcher 0]

I dont think its bad at all. You have a decent chance to pick up this pot uncontested. I think the CO's bet on turn means 1 of 2 things.1. He has a decent draw.2. He has a hand like 88 or top pair (QJs), or even (KJ). Assuming you have a good read you eithera) Get him to fold. (He might fold 88 or maybe even top pair weak kicker in this spot thinking you have an over pair) or;B) You will prevent a large bet bluff on the river if he misses his draw. If he is on a draw he will be less likely to put a substantial bet on the river even if you check.

[SapphireTiger 0]

Why are you re-raising the turn with A high and no draw?CO might not have anything but you don't either - I think that I fold at this point.

that's what the discussion is about. folding is not a good option. i raised the turn for 2 reasons.Think about what the CO could have.

[....Ian.... 0]

why check the river?

[speedz99 145]

I think you have to bet the river here. Otherwise you are just conceding the pot, which I guess is fine but would not be my first choice.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

My two cents:I don't like the turn c/r - He's not folding a draw or a pair in position for 7 more bucks. I'd probably check-fold, but if I'm raising I'd raise more, probably to $20 or so.

[SapphireTiger 0]

i checked the river because he would fold to a bet anyway.

[speedz99 145]

i checked the river because he would fold to a bet anyway.

Isn't that what you want with just A high?

[SapphireTiger 0]

i checked the river because he would fold to a bet anyway.

Isn't that what you want with just A high?

does it matter if you're going to win anyway? if you do this same play over and over again...the vast majority of the time the CO has a draw in this situation. Granted, there's a very small chance that i'm beaten, but if i make the same play over and over again...it's still +EV

[LuckyMcCatcher 0]

I think you have to bet the river here. Otherwise you are just conceding the pot, which I guess is fine but would not be my first choice.

I was thinking about this too. But, I think his call on the turn either means hes going to showdown (you cant risk your stack w/ A high, and he will call a small bet) or he is bluffing and won't call a bet. This being said you could stick a defensive bet in, but that was what the cr was supposed to accomplish. It will be hard for him to bluff after a cr even if you check the river

[Hold_Em 0]

donkey.

[rivercardbandit 0]

My guess is he was on a flush draw and tried to push you out with the turn bet and called your raise to see if he completes the flush on the river. I say you have to bet river. If he raises you, then fold?I'm not a NL player so I'm just guessing.

[GodOfEntropy 0]

If you are looking for a discussion on making a strong bluff, I would like to hear some thoughts on this as I have recently opened up my game to the agressive side and inevitably I face a turn situation like this with no strong draws and have to decide how much heat to put on my opponents. Here, I think the 1st mistake is not betting the pot on the flop if you want to represent a made hand. If you are called, you are at best drawing to top pair and should probably concede with a check/fold unless your table image will let you get away with a another large bet on the turn - but we all know table image does not exist at $25 MAX! The CO was concerned by your check-raise given his check on the river, but you are giving him almost 5:1 by only raising $7 - a typical $25 MAX player will almost always call that with TP even if they don't have the slightest idea about pot odds.If you put him on a draw here, A J seems probable to me given the call of the 6xBB raise preflop...

[SapphireTiger 0]

If you are looking for a discussion on making a strong bluff, I would like to hear some thoughts on this as I have recently opened up my game to the agressive side and inevitably I face a turn situation like this with no strong draws and have to decide how much heat to put on my opponents. Here, I think the 1st mistake is not betting the pot on the flop if you want to represent a made hand. If you are called, you are at best drawing to top pair and should probably concede with a check/fold unless your table image will let you get away with a another large bet on the turn - but we all know table image does not exist at $25 MAX! The CO was concerned by your check-raise given his check on the river, but you are giving him almost 5:1 by only raising $7 - a typical $25 MAX player will almost always call that with TP even if they don't have the slightest idea about pot odds.If you put him on a draw here, A J seems probable to me given the call of the 6xBB raise preflop...

i really believe that my only mistake here is not check-raising more on the turn.okay. here's my thinking.The only person i'm worried about is MP3. There's very much a chance that he has me beaten. But all his actions indicate that he's weak. i raise the turn to push him out more than anything else. The CO is very much on a draw many many times in this situation. I raise the turn to isolate...and then all of a sudden i have the best hand in a huge pot. Knowing that the river is a blank...i mean...he's not going to call anything. but if i put a big bet in there...and i get raised, then i'm just losing more money.

[GodOfEntropy 0]

...and then all of a sudden i have the best hand in a huge pot. Knowing that the river is a blank...i mean...he's not going to call anything. but if i put a big bet in there...and i get raised, then i'm just losing more money.

I absolutely agree with this - you've bought a cheap showdown with the c/r. So how much do you raise his $5 bet if you are still worried about MP3 and want to push out the CO?

[Actuary 3]

Sapphire,why do you fear mp+3 more than CO ?why are you so sure CO is on a draw ?I'm lousy at reads, so this will help me.

[gobears 0]

that's what the discussion is about. folding is not a good option. i raised the turn for 2 reasons.Think about what the CO could have.

I think that a weak J is possible along with a middle PP as well as the broken flush draw.If you're going to bluff him off of the pot - then it's going to take more than $12; pot size bet would be better on the turn.

[SapphireTiger 0]

that's what the discussion is about. folding is not a good option. i raised the turn for 2 reasons.Think about what the CO could have.

I think that a weak J is possible along with a middle PP as well as the broken flush draw.If you're going to bluff him off of the pot - then it's going to take more than $12; pot size bet would be better on the turn.

i agree. my mistake was not re-raising more on the turn...but the vast majority of the time the CO is on a draw, so the re-raising functions more as getting MP3 out of the pot rather than manipulating the pot odds so the CO is making a -EV call.

[SapphireTiger 0]

i left out an important detail. This was a live game, where we take the game seriously, but don't have a lot of dough to spend. Try to look at it where the opponents have some idea what they are doing

[SapphireTiger 0]

Sapphire,why do you fear mp+3 more than CO ?why are you so sure CO is on a draw ?I'm lousy at reads, so this will help me.

MP3 could very well be on a draw as well...but CO is much more likely to have one judging from his plays.And i'm not SO sure that he's on a draw. I'm just pretty sure. i do'nt really need to be 100% right every time for this to be a profitable play.by the by...this is why you check for your free card on the turn.[/b]

[akishore 0]

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...&fpart=all&vc=1this works better in limit than NL.*shrug*aseem

[SapphireTiger 0]

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rt=all&vc=1this works better in limit than NL.*shrug*aseem

but it still works in NL.good link

[GodOfEntropy 0]

Real interesting link and discussion - thanks Sapphire for bringing this up.

[Actuary 3]

I like to read the diff discussion since this is also posted in General...