tournament play i made

[jogsxyz 0]

It's not a bad play cuz of the results. And it's not a good play cuz of the the results.I've made many poor plays, decisions actions at a table. I don't believe this to be one of them. Sorry.- Jordan

It was a bad play because you decided to risk your tournament life on K6o. Smash's point on his first post on this thread is attack the small stacks. Leave the large stacks alone. You tangle with the big stacks when you have a clear edge, not on your perceived ability to read your opponent.

[Jordan 1]

Maybe you aren't reading all my posts. I did write that this was the first time I've been called down when pulling this play in a while and was frustrated. Espicially because I was in fact so confident he was folding.- Jordan

Maybe you aren't reading everyone else's posts.I'll try to spell it out for you as simply as possible.Mistake no 1 - You put in a bluff on the basis of your read on your opponent. Your read was wrong and therefore you made a bad play. Mistake no 2 - Your all-in bet screamed bluff and therefore your opponent got a read on you and called. Why are those two points so difficult for you to understand?Mistake no 3 - was when you posted on here trying to get people to tell you what a great player you were with your bad play.Mistake no4 - was when you started to take on Smash - many have tried, all have failed :wink: .

I didn't try or want anyone to tell me anything about being a "great" player. I posted probably mainly out of frustration. Don't really remember now as it was last week. My all in bet was the only bet I could have made at the pot, or just checked or folded on the river. I couldn't have bet a lesser amount or I believe I would have been called quicker.My read wasn't wrong. On the flop, I was still ahead. I made a mistake by not raising when I should have (preflop or on the flop).The only thing I agree with smash is that I could have picked a better spot when I actually had a hand to get my money in.The final result of the hand make it look like a bad play, and it obviously was the wrong play at the time because he called. Please stop telling me my read was wrong. I never said I put him on the pair of 4s, I didn't. But the flop bet smelled and it was my mistake of not raising him.I suck at poker.- Jordan

[Jordan 1]

It's not a bad play cuz of the results. And it's not a good play cuz of the the results.I've made many poor plays, decisions actions at a table. I don't believe this to be one of them. Sorry.- Jordan

It was a bad play because you decided to risk your tournament life on K6o. Smash's point on his first post on this thread is attack the small stacks. Leave the large stacks alone. You tangle with the big stacks when you have a clear edge, not on your perceived ability to read your opponent.

I agree somewhat. I will obviously use this as a lesson and be more careful when making a move against a big stack. However, it's not something I won't do when I believe my opponent will fold 90% of the time. And I was that certain he would fold to any bet I put on the turn. Again, call it unlucky, stupid, or a bad play, or a good play. He would not have called me on the turn with Q high, which was all he had when I called him on the flop. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I made the wrong play by not raising the flop, but I don't think the play is always wrong as said before.I actually believe in cardplayer magazine thomas keller wrote something about this type of play...dunno if any of you read that magazine.- Jordan

[Smasharoo 0]

No, this play still sucks.Sorry.Mainly becuase you don't understand that it might be a good play against a small stack and can't see how horrible it is against the big stack.

[Jordan 1]

No, this play still sucks.Sorry.Mainly becuase you don't understand that it might be a good play against a small stack and can't see how horrible it is against the big stack.

No man. I can see how it can be a horrible against a big stack.The big stack can bust you. The big stack can bust you with marginal hands.He busted me with a marginal hand. However, I still stand behind the fact that my main mistake "this" hand was not raising preflop or on the flop and allowing him to hit his third pair on the turn.- Jordan

[Smasharoo 0]

However, I still stand behind the fact that my main mistake "this" hand was not raising preflop or on the flop and allowing him to hit his third pair on the turn. Yeah, that's a much bigger mistake than going all in with K high on the turn and being knowcked out of hte tournament.Your biggest mistake was NOT CHECKING BEHIND ON THE TURN WITH F**KING K HIGHChrist, I know it's a long learning curve for some people, but this is ludicours.

[Jordan 1]

However, I still stand behind the fact that my main mistake "this" hand was not raising preflop or on the flop and allowing him to hit his third pair on the turn. Yeah, that's a much bigger mistake than going all in with K high on the turn and being knowcked out of hte tournament.Your biggest mistake was NOT CHECKING BEHIND ON THE TURN WITH F**KING K HIGHChrist, I know it's a long learning curve for some people, but this is ludicours.

Wow buddy, chill. Why would I call on the flop with nothing, just to check behind him on the turn? So I can bet the river if he checks to me? I certainly can't call a river bet if he puts one in.I made the call to take the pot from him on the turn because I believed he was weak. Which he was, until in his mind, strong with the pair he picked up on the turn.If I check the turn, I shouldn't have even called the flop. Again, and you berated me for saying this earlier. I had a read, a feeling, whatever you want to call it, that on the flop I had him still with King high. YES, King high. I should have raised him then, my fault, he hit his pair on the turn and called me. That's poker. Oh well.You really need to stop attacking this play because a) it's really not that big of a deal. B) we both seem to have different idea's of when to "bluff"...I agreed that it is much more risky to bluff a big stack, which I did, and will try to watch for next time, however, I went with my read and put the bet in on the turn because I thought my king high was good. Again, I will repeat myself. I was right with my read on the flop, but was wrong in not raising him then and allowing him to hit Third pair and call me down. If I check the turn, I am surrendering the pot, and I think I will win the pot 9/10 if I bet the turn here instead of checking it. I say that because I have made this play many, many times before when I have a solid read. This time, I just made a mistake of not re-raising when I should have...or you can look at it as, he got fortunate to catch third pair and he had the balls, guts, and/or his own read to call me.- Jordan

[Smasharoo 0]

Whatever. I'm done with you.Keep losing money to people who can learn to play better for the rest of your playing days.It was a great play. Brilliant.Just bad luck that he called.Happy?

[Jordan 1]

Lol. Be done with me, I never knew you were with me.Darn. I hope I keep loosing money too, so I can proove you right smash.Last thought I have for you: I find it funny you judging my play based on this one result. Wouldn't you be annoyed if I did the same to you? Maybe, maybe not. I don't know.I'll keep going with my reads, and yea they'll let me down some as you can't always be right, but I'll keep playing my game and bluff off all my chips. Cause that's all I do. - JordanBut thanks for trying to help me realize what a horrible play I've made and that I should never do it again and never have confidence in making "questionable" bets. You know where I agree with you, as I have stated, and you know where I disagree with you. You just can't seem to get over the fact that I still disagree, and you don't seem to want to try to understand while I understood some of your argument (bluffing at the big stack, etc) and tried to make that clear for you. Good day sir, try some bars of Xanax.

[Smasharoo 0]

Last thought I have for you: I find it funny you judging my play based on this one result. Wouldn't you be annoyed if I did the same to you?No.If it was a bad long term play and you explained that to me I'd say "Damn, you're right."I don't play poker for my ego, I play to win money.I POST for my ego!Good luck.

[Jordan 1]

That's why I'm letting you have the last word. I know you need it.- Jordan

[Smasharoo 0]

That's why I'm letting you have the last word. I know you need it.That's possibly the most irnoic thing I've ever seen posted here.If it was intentional, it's pretty funny.If it wasn't, you need professional help.

[Jordan 1]

What if we both did and got some together?Hold me.- Jordan

[dominiksdad 0]

Please stop telling me my read was wrong. I never said I put him on the pair of 4s, I didn't. But the flop bet smelled and it was my mistake of not raising him.- Jordan

You've answered it yourself haven't you?You have repeatedly said that your "read" told you that your King high was good and now you admit that you never put him on a paid of 4s - therefore your read was WRONG.The only thing that smelled in this hand was your play.

[offmandh 0]

Forget this post...probably could only comment on it if you were the one playing the hand. No, it's a bad play regardless of who's making it.Trying to talk yourself into thinking it's ever good to make this play against the biggest stack at the table with K high is talking yourself into losing more money long term.

No, it's not a bad play regardless of who's making it.I think I made the right play because of my read. I didn't think a 4 would be able to call me there and I was wrong. I believe I was unlucky he caught a 4, as he could not have called me with Q high which I beat with K high. I don't know how much NO limit you play, but if you can't bluff confidently, even at a big stack, then you can't play no limit. I was playing to win, not blind myself away.I knew I could outplay this guy and he caught a card to beat me. I've made many bad plays in my day and I remember probably every single one. Yes, he made an "amazingy" call but I am certain if one check/calls with third pair consistently, the pot will be going opposite directions.- Jordan

Can I jus say what annoys me alot? If you made that bluff into Phil Ivey and he called, you would think wow, that is one hell of a call. I can't believe he made that good of a play to call me down with third pair. But if Random Joe makes this play, you think "man, he got lucky on me and what a bad call and oh poopy." It is the same play no matter who makes it and it is a good call because HE HAD THE BEST HAND. Now, if he calls with third pair consistantly, you probably would know this (you sound like a good player) and you would never bluff at him. I agree with how you played the hand but maybe you should ask yourself why this guy knew he had the best hand with third pair.

[offmandh 0]

NOT CHECKING BEHIND ON THE TURN WITH F**KING K HIGHHe's right here. Ive watched alot of pros make this play and almost all of them check the turn because a.) they can hit their hand on the river and b.) if the river gets checked to them they can bet out. c). if they miss their hand on the river they can reraise if they question the players stregnth or just fold. (folding isnt evil. sometimes you need to just fold. Jordan, I understand how you play, I make hte same sort of moves but he is chip leader. Sometimes you need to fold pre-flop. If he always raises you can catch him when yoyu have a monster. toodles!

[Jordan 1]

Forget this post...probably could only comment on it if you were the one playing the hand.  No, it's a bad play regardless of who's making it.Trying to talk yourself into thinking it's ever good to make this play against the biggest stack at the table with K high is talking yourself into losing more money long term.

No, it's not a bad play regardless of who's making it.I think I made the right play because of my read. I didn't think a 4 would be able to call me there and I was wrong. I believe I was unlucky he caught a 4, as he could not have called me with Q high which I beat with K high. I don't know how much NO limit you play, but if you can't bluff confidently, even at a big stack, then you can't play no limit. I was playing to win, not blind myself away.I knew I could outplay this guy and he caught a card to beat me. I've made many bad plays in my day and I remember probably every single one. Yes, he made an "amazingy" call but I am certain if one check/calls with third pair consistently, the pot will be going opposite directions.- Jordan

Can I jus say what annoys me alot? If you made that bluff into Phil Ivey and he called, you would think wow, that is one hell of a call. I can't believe he made that good of a play to call me down with third pair. But if Random Joe makes this play, you think "man, he got lucky on me and what a bad call and oh poopy." It is the same play no matter who makes it and it is a good call because HE HAD THE BEST HAND. Now, if he calls with third pair consistantly, you probably would know this (you sound like a good player) and you would never bluff at him. I agree with how you played the hand but maybe you should ask yourself why this guy knew he had the best hand with third pair.

Well, I don't know how often he calls with third pair because I havn't played enough hands with him where I saw a showdown. I don't neccessarily think it was a "bad" call cuz of who made the call. I was just very surprised.Anywho...if I play with him again, I won't be making the same mistake, and hopefully use this against him.- Jordan

[Jordan 1]

NOT CHECKING BEHIND ON THE TURN WITH F**KING K HIGHHe's right here.  Ive watched alot of pros make this play and almost all of them check the turn because a.) they can hit their hand on the river and b.) if the river gets checked to them they can bet out.  c). if they miss their hand on the river they can reraise if they question the players stregnth or just fold.  (folding isnt evil.  sometimes you need to just fold.  Jordan, I understand how you play, I make hte same sort of moves but he is chip leader.  Sometimes you need to fold pre-flop.  If he always raises you can catch him when yoyu have a monster.  toodles!

Again, agreeable. I made a mistake in thinking this would be a spot to bluff, obviously I was wrong. Whether it is wrong because he caught third pair or not, is up for disagreement, but I think that has been discussed long enough.I truly believe that if again I feel I have the best hand preflop, flop, what have you, I need to re-raise. The slow bluff can work, but I do agree that the slow bluff will not work as well when you are not the huge chip leader and allow the chip leader to catch a mediocre hand.I was also thinking about this in the shower yesterday, we weren't very deep stacked in relation to the blinds and speed of them raising. This is normally a move I only make when deep stacks are indeed a reality. Both in tournaments and cash games. With all that being said, late in tournaments I still won't just peddle the nuts, but this experience I think definately will help my game overall.thanks for your thoughts. I'm about finished beating this dead horse - Jordan

[jogsxyz 0]

Yeh I don't think the arguement did anything for the sake of the information you were trying to gather.As for the live aspect of the game and that you had a read on him, I think if you had a read that he didn't have anything, then you did the right thing, but I just don't like risking your whole stack to make this move.I think the same can be achieved by not moving all-in, and probably works better 99% of the time.

This is what both Daniel Negreanu and Layne Flack did to Freddy Deeb in Poker at the Plaza. Freddy is suspicious of all-in bets. He is much more willing to fold against smaller bets.

[Zach6668 513]

This is a good thread.

[Jordan 1]

This is a good thread.

quite. should be stickied.- Jordan

[homnig 0]

indeed... ty for the bump.

[uncooper 1]

The other thing is, when faced with the call, villain was faced with deciding what your cards were. The way you played the hand, I can only think of two things you could possibly have: pocket 4s, or utter trash. With a 4 on the board and one in his pocket, he could only give the other two to you a very very small percentage of the time. Maybe you would have played 2nd pair like this, but in order for his call to be incorrect, you have to have 2nd pair a huge % of the time, to account for the 90%+ that you don't have pocket 4s. This all adds up to him putting together the puzzle.

[Kwest4chipz 0]

I'm too lazy to go back to the beginning, but i'm pretty sure you mentioned this guy being a calling station. So, i'm inclined to say that 1. bluffing a big stack late in a tourney is not so wise. 2. If the guy was known to be a calling station, you have yer answer to the mystery of him calling an all in with 3rd pair. From the sounds of it, it didn't really sound like this guy had a read on ya at all, he just was big stacked and figured wtf, unless he called off 50% of his stack or more for it. If it was only like 1/3 of his stack or something he probably figured he could take the hit if he was wrong. If he called off a significant portion of his stack on 3rd pair, then you gave him some info that told him you had nothing. Just based on what you have written tho, i think he just called cuz he could. Maybe a smaller bet on the river wouldn't have smelled so bad, or a reraise on the flop, but the amounts you were dumpin in there woulda had you committed real fast if he wanted to see cards and the result woulda been the same. I agree with smash, late in a tourney, don't go broke with K6. Pick on the lil stacks and the scared money. If i was the big stack in that tourney and was faced with a similiar play, i probably would have called too. Whoever said that allin bluffs are a bad move, is right. Moreso with a calling station on the other end. They are also used way too much. Then again i'm not much of a bluffer unless i have a solid mark that i know will lay down, or someone that is nursing a small stack and don't wanna go home right away. Bluffs are only effective against good poker players, if you had this guy pegged as a calling station, that doesn't translate into a good poker player, and yer gonna get called down. I used to think that slot machine players were mostly online, but after trying a couple SnGs at the horseshoe for a WSOP circuit event i found out its prevalent live as well. Not really the same kind of play but in one tourney we started 10 seats 300 chips, so i knew that the action was probably gonna be all in, all in, all in. Surprisingly though it was to some extent but not as bad as i thought, except for one guy. He went all in on a hand and as everyone folded to him, he said "what no one had 3,5 beat?" I had folded 63 so i didn't really care that he had bluffed a small pot. A few hands later he goes all in again, i have him covered and wake up to KQ. I know this guy is just buying pots so i just have to figure out if he has A rag, and if i put him on A rag, i won't call. I rewind to his 3 5 play, and decide he's got jack **** and call leaving me with 100 chips. He flips over J3 and i'm relieved cuz i had him pegged. flop comes 3 8 K, big sigh of relief.....turn J, ohhhhh no don't do it dealer......river J. I'm usually not bothered by bad beats, but i really hate a shitty player, and i wanted to come across the table. I guess what i'm saying is even tho you have taken a lil bashing from other posters. I'm not so sure that the play was all that bad, maybe the timing...the stack you played it against....and the player were bad. Thats the perks of a big stack tho, they can afford to be bad. LOL

[Jordan 1]

loool sticky!!!