AlexHoops 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Playing against a Fish... his river bet scared meParty Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is MP1 with [Ad], [Kd]. 2 folds, UTG+2 calls.Flop: (5.50 SB) [Tc], [3c], [Ks] (2 players)UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 calls.Turn: (3.75 BB) [As] (2 players)UTG+2 bets, UTG+2 calls.River: (7.75 BB) [5s] (2 players)UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.Final Pot: 9.75 BBDid I miss a bet on the river? Link to post Share on other sites
wrto4556 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Raise. He has a worse A or worse 2 pair most of the time. Link to post Share on other sites
TJ_Eckleburg 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Yeah... I agree. The number of times it's a backdoor flush (or broadway) is far outweighed by the times it's a worse two pair.Him not three-betting the turn tells you a lot. There's not a lot of purpose to stop 'n go the turn/river because the bets are the same. So I'd say it's a hand you're ahead of 90% of the time, a flush 9%, and a set or broadway 1% of the time.Big difference between untoppable top two pair and any two pair. Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 He backdoored a flush most of the time.Just call it. If the river wasn't a spade it's an easy raise/cap the three bet. Link to post Share on other sites
Blink20 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 So I'd say it's a hand you're ahead of 90% of the time, a flush 9%, and a set or broadway 1% of the time.Just out of curiosity, how did you come up with these numbers, or is it just completely arbitrary? Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Just out of curiosity, how did you come up with these numbers, or is it just completely arbitrary?That second one.Fish wake up and bet when they hit flushes because they're worried you'll check behind. they chech two pair and call in case YOU hit the flush.they're fish. That's what they do. Link to post Share on other sites
TJ_Eckleburg 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Completely arbitrary, and skewed to make a point.You really think it's a backdoor flush most of the time? I can see a lot of junk aces, or Ac5c.If I were a bettin' man that's what I'd put him on.But I could be giving him too much credit. It'll be QsTs more than 9% of the time... but I still think it oughta be a river raise. Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 You really think it's a backdoor flush most of the time?I really do.Fish might hang on with A5, but they don't bet into runner runner runner flushes because they worry you might have it.They think "oh nos, a flush!!!!" Link to post Share on other sites
TJ_Eckleburg 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 You really think it's a backdoor flush most of the time? I really do.Fair nuff. Good to have you back and posting frequently. Each time I walk past those scuzzy romance novels in Barnes and Noble I picture a 30 something bearded guy that looks like a French philosopher fiendishly 4-tabling 3/6. Whatever that looks like. But it makes sense in my head. Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Each time I walk past those scuzzy romance novels in Barnes and Noble I picture a 30 something bearded guy that looks like a French philosopher fiendishly 4-tabling 3/6Picture a long haired clean shaven guy.I'd say a fat long haired one but I can't eat with my wife sick so I've lost like 30 pounds. Link to post Share on other sites
TJ_Eckleburg 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 The long hair plays.Hope your wife is ok. Possibly morning sickness? Maybe lots of baby smashes running around someday? Tell her some complete random stranger in Atlanta wishes her the best. Link to post Share on other sites
NickTheKid 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 lol I can just imagine the baby smash. "Slasheroo" By the way, I don't figure Backdoor flush whatsoever. Link to post Share on other sites
Absolute 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 He backdoored a flush most of the time.Just call it. If the river wasn't a spade it's an easy raise/cap the three bet.I read that and pretended it was a joke.That's horrible weak/tight advice.Raise the river and call a 3-bet if you like money.I'm sure Smash will argue, but this isn't even a very tough line. I guess hes fallen a few steps. That or they were never there. Link to post Share on other sites
wrto4556 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 He backdoored a flush most of the time.Just call it. If the river wasn't a spade it's an easy raise/cap the three bet.im guessing you missed the turn bet. Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Let's see what he actually had. Out of curiosity sake. Should almost certainly be two pair, right? Link to post Share on other sites
Smiff85 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 As much as i hate to diasgree with Smash this river is a raise everytime barring some sort of incredible read. Link to post Share on other sites
NickTheKid 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 It doesn't really matter what the results are, what matters is that raising top two pair on a board like that is so standard it's not even worth some big discussion. Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 K, keep raising it for value against bad players. Link to post Share on other sites
cdddc75 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Why are so many obsessing about the third flush card on the river when it's quite apparent that the fish is much more likely to be holding a made straight (QJ) than two spades? There are enough hands that beat you here to justify calling on the river instead of raising.I don't think a fish (LPP) leads that river after calling the turn raise with two pair. It seems to me that he's as likely to have a straight (QJ, 42) or a flush as he is to just have two pair.Would laugh myself silly if he had QJ Link to post Share on other sites
AlexHoops 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Author Share Posted June 6, 2005 I just looked it up... I can honestly say that I never put him on 5 q after I won the pot. Link to post Share on other sites
Kendren 1 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Okay, then this isn't a fish, it's a moron for betting the river. Link to post Share on other sites
cdddc75 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Okay, then this isn't a fish, it's a moron for betting the river.If I'd known we were talking about a maniac instead of a fish, I would have advocated jamming that river as hard as possible. Link to post Share on other sites
Rocketwadster 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 I'm torn on this one. Is our river raise a value raise? Is it a bluff? Is it raising with a medium weak hand?It seems like there have been a ton of postings about these situations lately, and every time I see it I recall Ferguson's article about betting a medium weak hand on the river (The worst play in poker).Sure, we have trips here with top kicker, but with a straight and a flush possible (and based on the betting, highly likely), I don't think this is a value bet. You can't use the results from this one hand as justification. I think it is a call... :wink: Link to post Share on other sites
cdddc75 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 I'm torn on this one. Â Is our river raise a value raise? Â Is it a bluff? Â Is it raising with a medium weak hand?It seems like there have been a ton of postings about these situations lately, and every time I see it I recall Ferguson's article about betting a medium weak hand on the river (The worst play in poker).Sure, we have trips here with top kicker, but with a straight and a flush possible (and based on the betting, highly likely), I don't think this is a value bet. Â You can't use the results from this one hand as justification. Â I think it is a call... :wink:It's a value raise against a maniac and a chip spew against a competent opponent. Link to post Share on other sites
Rocketwadster 0 Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 It's a value raise against a maniac and a chip spew against a competent opponent.A lot of times when playing though (whether online or in a B&M), you may not know the type of player you are against (maybe you just sat down in a B&M and this is your third hand or so). Therefore, you need to generalize your thoughts on whether to just call here, or to raise. IMO, its a calling scenario. :wink: Link to post Share on other sites
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