how would you play this river?

[AlexHoops 0]

The post is under SSHE with the same topic name at 2+2

[Absolute 0]

The post is under SSHE with the same topic name at 2+2

and it looks like the overwhelming consensus is raisethey should start listening to smash, clearly

[DCWildcat 0]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em I've been told many times that the level doesn't matter (even though I firmly believe that there are less maniacs at the higher levels than at 2/4).

No offense to whoever told you that as I'm sure this was said with good intentions...but that's one of the worst pieces of poker advice I've ever heard. Do not heed that. You can (and should) adjust your play considerably depending on the stakes.

[cdddc75 0]

holy cow, why is this being argued. What does the turn bet tell us? That he picked up something...Most of the time, it's a pair of aces. I would say 70%. Other times he picks up a draw with a straight or flush and there are still other times he has mid pair and is representing the ace.First, if he is aggressive enough to bet a draw, he is aggressive enough to stop and go with a worse hand than ours over 75% of the time.Raise the river, and it's not even close.

Some draws hit on that river though.Do you think there are twice as many hands that will call while beaten compared to those that will three bet when they beat us though? That's the sole determining factor of whether or not this is a good value raise. Absolute gave 8-10 hands that will three bet us when we're beaten. Nine two pair hands will theoretically all call our raise. We still need another nine hands or so to make this raise +EV. To make this raise +EV, you need every pair of Aces or lower two pair to call the raise, or you need to be able to convince opponents to fold sets or straights for one more big bet.The range of hands beating us compared to the range of hands we beat and will call don't justify a river raise. Maybe I need to count each two pair holding as being twice as likely to be held by our opponent as any set/straight/flush holding...the math doesn't work otherwise.

[wrto4556 0]

We are getting called with worse hands more than enough.

[Absolute 0]

We are getting called with worse hands more than enough.

ive been saying this over and over again, and the response i get is "you are not giving good reason to raise the river"i thought this was exactly the right reason to raise the river

[wrto4556 0]

I think what they were trying to say is that you have to have the best hand atleast 2/3 of the time to raise the river. You gain 2 when you're ahead but lose 3 when you're behind and 3-bet. What makes this such an easy raise is:1) The way the hand played out (i.e. the turn bet).2) Not all better hands 3-bet the river.3) We have the best hand ~80% of the time(if not more, because of #1).

[Absolute 0]

I think what they were trying to say is that you have to have the best hand atleast 2/3 of the time to raise the river. You gain 2 when you're ahead but lose 3 when you're behind and 3-bet. What makes this such an easy raise is:1) The way the hand played out (i.e. the turn bet).2) Not all better hands 3-bet the river.3) We have the best hand ~80% of the time(if not more, because of #1).

i agree.goin back i think i said this too.theres just not enough flush hands that play this hand this way, although someone said he could find 20.i think its a pretty clear cut +ev situation with the raise.

[cdddc75 0]

We are getting called with worse hands more than enough.

That's a fantastic generalization. Pardon me for be a picky jerk that likes to see evidence to back it up though. I like value raises as much as anyone, but I hate spewing when I could show down cheap with a hand that's easily crushed too.What's the standard wa/wb line at this point?

[wrto4556 0]

It's card disribution and general hand reading skills.

[Absolute 0]

It's card disribution and general hand reading skills.

boo yahsomehow cdcc jumped on the wagonwe can pull him right off though

[cdddc75 0]

I think what they were trying to say is that you have to have the best hand atleast 2/3 of the time to raise the river. You gain 2 when you're ahead but lose 3 when you're behind and 3-bet. What makes this such an easy raise is:1) The way the hand played out (i.e. the turn bet).2) Not all better hands 3-bet the river.3) We have the best hand ~80% of the time(if not more, because of #1).

I just don't trust the stop and go. Guess I haven't seen enough players try that move with only a pair of aces. Point #2 is a compelling one. A straight should have 3 bet us on the turn, unless he was trying some FPS trap. A set of tens...dunno. Think that would have been check/raised on the flop.Point #3: You've seen more hands than I have. I know a lower holding is more likely (card distribution and all). I can't argue this beyond the meager math I've thrown at it.As I said a million posts ago, this still feels like a lot of debate over no more than .5 BB (at most) of EV.

[Absolute 0]

We are getting called with worse hands more than enough.

That's a fantastic generalization. Pardon me for be a picky jerk that likes to see evidence to back it up though. I like value raises as much as anyone, but I hate spewing when I could show down cheap with a hand that's easily crushed too.What's the standard wa/wb line at this point?

how do you factor in a wa/wb line in to this hand?

[cdddc75 0]

It's card disribution and general hand reading skills.

My hand reading skills SUCK.Just ask HoosierAlum. :oops:

[Absolute 0]

I think what they were trying to say is that you have to have the best hand atleast 2/3 of the time to raise the river. You gain 2 when you're ahead but lose 3 when you're behind and 3-bet. What makes this such an easy raise is:1) The way the hand played out (i.e. the turn bet).2) Not all better hands 3-bet the river.3) We have the best hand ~80% of the time(if not more, because of #1).

I just don't trust the stop and go. Guess I haven't seen enough players try that move with only a pair of aces. Point #2 is a compelling one. A straight should have 3 bet us on the turn, unless he was trying some FPS trap. A set of tens...dunno. Think that would have been check/raised on the flop.Point #3: You've seen more hands than I have. I know a lower holding is more likely (card distribution and all). I can't argue this beyond the meager math I've thrown at it.As I said a million posts ago, this still feels like a lot of debate over no more than .5 BB (at most) of EV.

do you realize how important it is to work out a leak when it is worth .5 BB in hands like this?

[cdddc75 0]

do you realize how important it is to work out a leak when it is worth .5 BB in hands like this?

How often is a value raise on the river hard to gauge? Once every 100 hands? Once every 500?

[Absolute 0]

do you realize how important it is to work out a leak when it is worth .5 BB in hands like this?

How often is a value raise on the river hard to gauge? Once every 100 hands? Once every 500?

i dont find this one hard to gauge.but picking up .5 BB leaks is importantand i hope you agree

[econ_tim 0]

i dont find this one hard to gauge.but picking up .5 BB leaks is important

I don't know. It's bigger than the folding flopped royal flushed leak and smaller than the limping with any sooted cards leak.That said, it's not hard to fix, and it probably applies more generally than to value raising on the river.

[Absolute 0]

i dont find this one hard to gauge.but picking up .5 BB leaks is important

I don't know. It's bigger than the folding flopped royal flushed leak and smaller than the limping with any sooted cards leak.That said, it's not hard to fix, and it probably applies more generally than to value raising on the river.

disregarding leaks because they are of "what seems to be" insignificant value is a leak.this is the goal of limit hold'em, to tighten every screw.

[wrto4556 0]

This is what gets you from a 2.0BB/100 to 2.2BB/100 winner. Playing $10/$20, you do the math and find out how much this particular mistake costs you yearly.**Obviously the mistake isn't that big. But finding small ones like this compound and make a "leaky" game.**

[cdddc75 0]

This is what gets you from a 2.0BB/100 to 2.2BB/100 winner. Playing $10/$20, you do the math and find out how much this particular mistake costs you yearly.**Obviously the mistake isn't that big. But finding small ones like this compound and make a "leaky" game.**

Fair enough.I guess the times you get called and win do outweigh the three bet poundings. Can't argue this one any more than I have.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em I've been told many times that the level doesn't matter (even though I firmly believe that there are less maniacs at the higher levels than at 2/4).

No offense to whoever told you that as I'm sure this was said with good intentions...but that's one of the worst pieces of poker advice I've ever heard. Do not heed that. You can (and should) adjust your play considerably depending on the stakes.

So, are you agreeing with me then, or slamming what I wrote? I jsut woke up and haven't finished my first coffee yet, so I can't tell.And I am still not decided on the best course of action here, as Smash and WRTO/Absolute are on different sides, and they are the 3 top posters (IMO) whose advice I would follow the most. :?

[Absolute 0]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em  I've been told many times that the level doesn't matter (even though I firmly believe that there are less maniacs at the higher levels than at 2/4).

No offense to whoever told you that as I'm sure this was said with good intentions...but that's one of the worst pieces of poker advice I've ever heard. Do not heed that. You can (and should) adjust your play considerably depending on the stakes.

So, are you agreeing with me then, or slamming what I wrote? I jsut woke up and haven't finished my first coffee yet, so I can't tell.And I am still not decided on the best course of action here, as Smash and WRTO/Absolute are on different sides, and they are the 3 top posters (IMO) whose advice I would follow the most. :?

here ill tell you the answer*makes sure no one else is looking or listening*its a raise

[Smasharoo 0]

Phew, good thing you were done with this topic 10 times or so.Caling's still better.

[Absolute 0]

Phew, good thing you were done with this topic 10 times or so.Caling's still better.

i was done talkin to you about it 10 times agobut you are quite persistent