brvheart 1,747 Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 I didn't know where to post this, and wanted to get your thoughts. It's long:http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/the_boo...n_culture_.html Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 I tried reading it, I really did. I made it through about four pages, two from each.It helped me make up my mind. I can now officially say that talking about religion is sooper boring.Edit: But really, is there any one point that you'd like to discuss? They ramble a ton. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Going to hear Dinesh D'Souza tomorrow speak at a private event in Palm Springs.I was hired to do some lighting and did the pre-light tonight for levels and found out he was the speaker, so I will stay to 'run' the lights.Looking forward to it. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 I didn't know where to post this, and wanted to get your thoughts. It's long:http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/the_boo...n_culture_.html First, it's a pretty annoying format. There's really no discussion in it; half the time RD barely responds to the substance of the issue, and when he makes really horrible arguments they just move on to the next subject instead of holding each other to task. I find this Douthat guy to be super arrogant and dense. He's dousing his dogma with the scent of intellectualism by pretty language, but at the core all he seems to want is that you not pry christian ideology from his cold, dead hands. As to the message of his book, surely christianity is off the rails, but going back to orthodoxy is thankfully no longer an option now that we know what we know. The solution is to embrace a secular morality, which is hindered at this point by both "bad religion" and "good religion". Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,747 Posted April 25, 2012 Author Share Posted April 25, 2012 First, it's a pretty annoying format. There's really no discussion in it; half the time RD barely responds to the substance of the issue, and when he makes really horrible arguments they just move on to the next subject instead of holding each other to task. I find this Douthat guy to be super arrogant and dense. He's dousing his dogma with the scent of intellectualism by pretty language, but at the core all he seems to want is that you not pry christian ideology from his cold, dead hands. As to the message of his book, surely christianity is off the rails, but going back to orthodoxy is thankfully no longer an option now that we know what we know. The solution is to embrace a secular morality, which is hindered at this point by both "bad religion" and "good religion".What do you mean? What do we know? Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 What do you mean? What do we know?That to consider the books of the bible to be literally true is ridiculous. Although, he does argue that an orthodox reading allows for allegory, so I guess I'm not sure what VB means either. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Going to hear Dinesh D'Souza tomorrow speak at a private event in Palm Springs.I was hired to do some lighting and did the pre-light tonight for levels and found out he was the speaker, so I will stay to 'run' the lights.Looking forward to it.He was pushing his new movie coming out in August. I am luke warm to the speech and the movie.But it will be fun to see the left go nuts calling him a racist for it. Link to post Share on other sites
fighter 4 Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2174...ief-in-god.html Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted May 20, 2012 Share Posted May 20, 2012 Richard Dawkins has some skeletons... He has railed against the evils of religion, and lectured the world on the virtues of atheism.Now Richard Dawkins, the secularist campaigner against "intolerance and suffering", must face an awkward revelation: he is descended from slave owners and his family estate was bought with a fortune partly created by forced labour.One of his direct ancestors, Henry Dawkins, amassed such wealth that his family owned 1,013 slaves in Jamaica by the time of his death in 1744.The Dawkins family estate, consisting of 400 acres near Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire, was bought at least in part with wealth amassed through sugar plantation and slave ownership. Poor Dickie Dawkins...no wonder he is so angry all the time Link to post Share on other sites
timwakefield 68 Posted May 20, 2012 Share Posted May 20, 2012 Richard Dawkins has some skeletons...Uh, like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and all of those guys? Except they actually owned the slaves personally. Link to post Share on other sites
BaseJester 1 Posted May 20, 2012 Share Posted May 20, 2012 Richard Dawkins has some skeletons...Was Henry Dawkins an atheist? Link to post Share on other sites
fighter 4 Posted May 20, 2012 Share Posted May 20, 2012 Richard Dawkins has some skeletons...Poor Dickie Dawkins...no wonder he is so angry all the time Numbers 14:18The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation "Henry Dawkins was my great great great great great grandfather, so approximately one in 128 of my genes are inherited from him."http://richarddawkin...-also-in-polishThe bible says to let it go. It was 7 generations ago.However the bible also says that owning slaves is fine. So if you choose not to use the bible for moral guidance, It's understandable. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,747 Posted May 20, 2012 Author Share Posted May 20, 2012 However the bible also says that owning slaves is fine. I'll wait with bated-breath until you provide the reference that tells Christians that slavery is fine. I can hardly wait. Link to post Share on other sites
fighter 4 Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 I'll wait with bated-breath until you provide the reference that tells Christians that slavery is fine. I can hardly wait. I can show you all the passages where they condemn slavery "..... ".Since Exodus could basically be renamed "how to morally beat your slaves", The next step should be obvious.How can you list rules on how to own a slave if owning a slave is bad?Apparently, I was allowed to beat my slaves with a rod and if they don't die until 2-3 days after the event, I shouldn't be punished. Exodus 21:20-21How is that not implied consent? Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,747 Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 I can show you all the passages where they condemn slavery "..... ".Since Exodus could basically be renamed "how to morally beat your slaves", The next step should be obvious.How can you list rules on how to own a slave if owning a slave is bad?Apparently, I was allowed to beat my slaves with a rod and if they don't die until 2-3 days after the event, I shouldn't be punished. Exodus 21:20-21How is that not implied consent? The OT has pretty clear rules on treatment of slaves and a whole bunch of other things that were going on when it was written in like 1500 BC. What's even crazier is that people still bought and sold humans like 150 years ago, which is more than 3000 years after Exodus was written.However, the NEW testament is very specific on slavery, and has many sections, including the entire book of Philemon, written on how to treat slaves with gentleness, love, and forgiveness. Link to post Share on other sites
fighter 4 Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 However, the NEW testament is very specific on slavery, and has many sections, including the entire book of Philemon, written on how to treat slaves with gentleness, love, and forgiveness.Fantastic news.. Show me the passage where they say it is wrong to own a person. Also It still doesn't change the fact that for a period in history, the all loving and merciful god decided that beating a slave to death was an acceptable activity. Provided that it took the slave 3 days for the slave to succumb to the injuries. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,747 Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 Fantastic news..Show me the passage where they say it is wrong to own a person.Also It still doesn't change the fact that for a period in history, the all loving and merciful god decided that beating a slave to death was an acceptable activity. Provided that it took the slave 3 days for the slave to succumb to the injuries.The Bible doesn't say anything about a ton of stuff that is against the law or morally wrong. It's not exhaustive. It's meant to teach you how to fish, not provide the fish.As for the beating of the slaves, God makes the rules. Who am I to question the creator of the universe on some of his minor policies and ordinances? It's not like everyone wanted to kill their slaves, since then they wouldn't have a slave anymore. This happened like twice, and I'm in no position to comment on the state of the Jewish culture from 2000 BC to 1500 BC. Link to post Share on other sites
fighter 4 Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 The Bible doesn't say anything about a ton of stuff that is against the law or morally wrong. It's not exhaustive. It's meant to teach you how to fish, not provide the fish.That is fantastic deflection when talking about dinosaurs or other subjects that are completely void in the bible. However this subject is discussed in at least two different book in both new and old testament. Lets use your analogy of teaching a man to fish. If I tell you what sort of fishing rod you should use, the type of bait, where you should fish and what sort of fish you should catch. How would you be able to argue that I am anti fishing? If you asked me what sort of bait you should use , I would answer "you shouldn't fish". As to the second part, If god thought it fit for us to own slaves as long as you treated them with gentleness, love, and forgiveness, why are you questioning it? Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,747 Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 That is fantastic deflection when talking about dinosaurs or other subjects that are completely void in the bible.What the hell are you talking about?I didn't say anything about dinosaurs and I'm doing the exact opposite of "questioning it". You should probably want me to start questioning it, since that's what most of "your kind" would say in that spot. Link to post Share on other sites
fighter 4 Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 What the hell are you talking about?I didn't say anything about dinosaurs and I'm doing the exact opposite of "questioning it". You should probably want me to start questioning it, since that's what most of "your kind" would say in that spot.Your right, you never mentioned T-rex, I was noting the technique of saying something along the line of "Just because the bible doesn't mention the dinosaurs, doesn't mean that the bible isn't accurate". Specifically the 'It's not exhaustive' mention. I'll wait with bated-breath until you provide the reference that tells Christians that slavery is fine. I can hardly wait.So you object to me saying that slavery is fine.However you don't object to me saying 'god thought it fit for us to own slaves as long as you treated them with gentleness, love, and forgiveness'.So the problem with my first post is that it brushed too wide of a stroke? That only certain types of slavery are moral? Link to post Share on other sites
BaseJester 1 Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 The Bible doesn't say anything about a ton of stuff that is against the law or morally wrong. It's not exhaustive. It's meant to teach you how to fish, not provide the fish.The Bible is extremely detailed on a lot of issues. I find it incredible that "Don't own people," is intentionally left as an exercise for the reader to work out.As for the beating of the slaves, God makes the rules. Who am I to question the creator of the universe on some of his minor policies and ordinances? It's not like everyone wanted to kill their slaves, since then they wouldn't have a slave anymore. This happened like twice, and I'm in no position to comment on the state of the Jewish culture from 2000 BC to 1500 BC.Obviously, once you accept that a religious text from thousands of years ago is the unquestionable word of God, it carries weight. The point is that it's absurd to believe this, given "God's" position on slavery in the religious text. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,747 Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 The Bible is extremely detailed on a lot of issues. I find it incredible that "Don't own people," is intentionally left as an exercise for the reader to work out.Maybe it's because it wasn't as big of a deal then as it is now. Many people sold themselves or family members into slavery in order to provide food for themselves or others. There wasn't social security. Individual freedoms are not guaranteed by the Bible.Also, I disagree with your conclusion based on the little information given to us. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,747 Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 So you object to me saying that slavery is fine.However you don't object to me saying 'god thought it fit for us to own slaves as long as you treated them with gentleness, love, and forgiveness'.So the problem with my first post is that it brushed too wide of a stroke? That only certain types of slavery are moral? The Bible doesn't talk about the morality of slavery. It talks about heart issues in relation to the ongoing practice of slavery. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 The OT has pretty clear rules on treatment of slaves and a whole bunch of other things that were going on when it was written in like 1500 BC. What's even crazier is that people still bought and sold humans like 150 years ago, which is more than 3000 years after Exodus was written.However, the NEW testament is very specific on slavery, and has many sections, including the entire book of Philemon, written on how to treat slaves with gentleness, love, and forgiveness.Cannot decide between facepalm and spit-take. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,747 Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 Cannot decide between facepalm and spit-take.Sorry. Link to post Share on other sites
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