Rock Beyond Belief

[Roll the Bones 74]

I agree 100% that many "Christians", sadly maybe even the majority, also don't understand the gospel, which starts at the beginning of the OT and stretches to the end of the NT.

The idea that I see casually thrown about when it comes to religon is just what you did. "Oh, they don't understand or they are the ones "distorting" christianity, they aren't showing what it's "really" about. It's the standard apology for Christians who act bigoted against homosexuals or other races and religons, or even further preachers like Terry Brown or the Westboro Babtist crowd. They are "distorting" God's mesage. It goes the same way for muslims. I see them claiming that the extremists aren't the true "face" of Islam.I don't buy it.I don't buy this idea of a "distorted" Islam that stones the infidel and a "true" Islam that respects human rights, any more than I buy the idea of a "distorted" Christianity that justifies racism and a "true" Christianity that fights it. Since I don't believe in any revealed religious truth, a religion simply is what it does. All actions in its name are equally its "true" face.

[brvheart 1,752]

The idea that I see casually thrown about when it comes to religon is just what you did. "Oh, they don't understand or they are the ones "distorting" christianity, they aren't showing what it's "really" about. It's the standard apology for Christians who act bigoted against homosexuals or other races and religons, or even further preachers like Terry Brown or the Westboro Babtist crowd. They are "distorting" God's mesage. It goes the same way for muslims. I see them claiming that the extremists aren't the true "face" of Islam.I don't buy it.I don't buy this idea of a "distorted" Islam that stones the infidel and a "true" Islam that respects human rights, any more than I buy the idea of a "distorted" Christianity that justifies racism and a "true" Christianity that fights it. Since I don't believe in any revealed religious truth, a religion simply is what it does. All actions in its name are equally its "true" face.

You can hold up individuals as a straw man all day long, but you really must attack the source that the religion is based on. So you need to show where Christ, who happens to be the basis for Christianity, says to hate homosexuals or to hang coloreds in trees.The reality of the matter is that many many people that would claim to be Christians know nothing of the Bible or of how Jesus said to live. They also wouldn't care, even if they did. How then can they be the face of Christianity?

[Roll the Bones 74]

You can hold up individuals as a straw man all day long, but you really must attack the source that the religion is based on. So you need to show where Christ, who happens to be the basis for Christianity, says to hate homosexuals or to hang coloreds in trees.The reality of the matter is that many many people that would claim to be Christians know nothing of the Bible or of how Jesus said to live. They also wouldn't care, even if they did. How then can they be the face of Christianity?

Since I don't believe in any revealed religious truth, a religion simply is what it does. All actions in its name are equally its "true" face.You are saying there is some "religous truth" that others don't get. They say the same about you. All religons say it about each others. I am saying the actions that the religon brings about are all apart of that religon. What the religon does, is what it is.Fro example, many Christians are bigoted against homosexuals and muslims. You are implying that they should be ignored because they don't understand the bible or that they aren't representative a true christianity based on your understanding of scripture. I am saying their actions are all that really matter. They are representing Christianity.

[brvheart 1,752]

Since I don't believe in any revealed religious truth, a religion simply is what it does. All actions in its name are equally its "true" face.You are saying there is some "religous truth" that others don't get. They say the same about you. All religons say it about each others. I am saying the actions that the religon brings about are all apart of that religon. What the religon does, is what it is.Fro example, many Christians are bigoted against homosexuals and muslims. You are implying that they should be ignored because they don't understand the bible or that they aren't representative a true christianity based on your understanding of scripture. I am saying their actions are all that really matter. They are representing Christianity.

I'm really not. Hypothetically, I don't care if the Bible is true or not, or has religious truth or not. If people claim to be followers of Christ and don't know anything about what he said nor follow him with their lives, then they aren't the face of anything except stupidity.Those people aren't doing anything in the name of Christianity. It is their own made up religion based on their feelings.

[Roll the Bones 74]

I'm really not. Hypothetically, I don't care if the Bible is true or not, or has religious truth or not. If people claim to be followers of Christ and don't know anything about what he said nor follow him with their lives, then they aren't the face of anything except stupidity.Those people aren't doing anything in the name of Christianity. It is their own made up religion based on their feelings.

Don't get me wrong, I and alot of others appreciate it when the version you arrive at believing is at least moderate. Alot of athiests would still bash it, but I figure we should encourage the good behavior.

[timwakefield 68]

I totally agree. Probably 1% of atheists think this way, which makes them a fraction of a percent of the population. But at least those people are unreasonably certain and correct.

I don't understand why you think that's an unreasonable belief, and I think you vastly underestimate it at 1%. To me when we talk about atheism we're talking about Yahweh. The one true God. If we redefine God in some Einsteinian way where He is no longer a distinct entity who exerts His will on people and, "Is but a reflection of human frailty," then I think we should find a different word to use than "God." When an atheist rejects theism, he's rejecting the theism that exists around him, in his life and his society. Rejecting God means rejecting the God of the Bible, or the Koran, or the Torah, along with Zeus and voodoo gods and whatever other nonsense. At least that's how it seems to me. If one believes that God is the intricacy and beauty and complexity of the universe and has no will or motive, that's not really "God" with a capital G. I think Sam Harris kept saying the same thing to Deepak in that video. So do you think it's unreasonable to believe with absolute certainty that an anthropomorphic God doesn't exist? Because again, if we're not talking about that God and the other recognized gods of religion, then we're really not talking about God anymore.

[vbnautilus 48]

So do you think it's unreasonable to believe with absolute certainty that an anthropomorphic God doesn't exist? Because again, if we're not talking about that God and the other recognized gods of religion, then we're really not talking about God anymore.

I think it's unreasonable to have absolute certainty about that, yes. This statement might even apply to any belief, because there is always some chance that evidence was wrong, or that we are mistaken in some way we can't see, etc. In the case of one of these gods, there is the possibility that the world was created with craploads of counterevidence just to test us all and make sure Balloon Guy goes to heaven. The probability of this appears exceedingly small, but I don't see how we can say it is absolute zero. I think its reasonable to have very high certainty that those gods don't exist, but I'm taking the word absolute here very seriously.I estimate the number of atheists who think that way as very small because atheists tend to have a scientific point of view. Science always leaves the door open for new evidence to change our minds.

[timwakefield 68]

The probability of this appears exceedingly small, but I don't see how we can say it is absolute zero. I think its reasonable to have very high certainty that those gods don't exist, but I'm taking the word absolute here very seriously.

But I imagine that most atheists believe the number to be so exceedingly small as to be irrelevant. If I ask you point-blank whether or not you believe that Santa Claus actually exists, do you really have to qualify your "no?"

[vbnautilus 48]

But I imagine that most atheists believe the number to be so exceedingly small as to be irrelevant. If I ask you point-blank whether or not you believe that Santa Claus actually exists, do you really have to qualify your "no?"

I agree with you.I don't have to qualify my answer to the santa claus question nor to the god question in casual conversation. For all practical purposes, I do not believe either of them exist.But I also think there is an important logical difference between "I think the chance is so exceedingly small as to be irrelevant" and "I know that the chance is zero". This difference I think is the key to rationality, and its one of the things that distinguishes is us from faith-based religious believers.

[timwakefield 68]

You had me at, "I agree with you."

[SweetDee 0]

The funniest thing about this is that rape and pedophilia don't rate high enough to sniff the 10 commandments. Way more important to make multiple commandments about God being as jealous and needy as most teenage girls and how you shouldn't want to **** your neighbours wife or drive his car. Raping 12 year olds is fine as long as your not doing it at work on a Sunday or if you do it while married.

My thoughts on this is that it doesn't rate high enough because it's fairly well known that rape or pedophilia is bad. The vast majority people will never rape or fondle a child, no need to make a big stink about it. But, the two you referred to are not as much about coveting your neighbors wife or his things as much as it is about the mastery of how your mind works. If you are a person who can manage to not **** your neighbors wife, or more importantly not even realize the desire too, most likely you are a person who will not be raping. Same goes for pedophilia. No need to even address it when the building block concepts presented, if followed, will create a person incapable of even dreaming of what you are so worried about.

[Spademan 94]

My thoughts on this is that it doesn't rate high enough because it's fairly well known that rape or pedophilia is bad. The vast majority people will never rape or fondle a child, no need to make a big stink about it. But, the two you referred to are not as much about coveting your neighbors wife or his things as much as it is about the mastery of how your mind works. If you are a person who can manage to not **** your neighbors wife, or more importantly not even realize the desire too, most likely you are a person who will not be raping. Same goes for pedophilia. No need to even address it when the building block concepts presented, if followed, will create a person incapable of even dreaming of what you are so worried about.

I'm not sure you wrote a single thing that wasn't incredibly stupid and/or uninformed. I'd read it again to verify, but the stupid... it burns.

[SweetDee 0]

I'm not sure you wrote a single thing that wasn't incredibly stupid and/or uninformed. I'd read it again to verify, but the stupid... it burns.

I will bite. What's so stupid about the idea that starting with certain concepts helps build better people?

[Balloon guy 158]

I will bite. What's so stupid about the idea that starting with certain concepts helps build better people?

You must understand, their world view demands that better people developed over long periods of time with random chance kick starting the process.If they accept that a Higher Power started the ball rolling, they would deny who they are.So it's not personal, it's political.

[Skeleton Jelly 2]

My thoughts on this is that it doesn't rate high enough because it's fairly well known that rape or pedophilia is bad. The vast majority people will never rape or fondle a child, no need to make a big stink about it.

Apparently little known idea: murder is bad.

[Spademan 94]

My thoughts on this is that it doesn't rate high enough because it's fairly well known that rape or pedophilia is bad.

Stupid. Murder is pretty much all that needs to be said to point out why.

The vast majority people will never rape or fondle a child, no need to make a big stink about it.

Disgusting.

But, the two you referred to are not as much about coveting your neighbors wife or his things as much as it is about the mastery of how your mind works.

Vapid, apologetic, unsupported, armchair psycho-babble.

If you are a person who can manage to not **** your neighbors wife, or more importantly not even realize the desire too, most likely you are a person who will not be raping.

Uninformed tripe. Implying that rape is about lust, rather than violence and power.

Same goes for pedophilia.

Implying that someone who wouldn't cultivate the desire to have sex with an adult woman and act upon it consensually has any fucking relevance when talking about a pedophile. You fucking moron.

No need to even address it when the building block concepts presented, if followed, will create a person incapable of even dreaming of what you are so worried about.

More vapid, fallacious, bald assertion. Every line of your post was idiotic.

You must understand, their world view demands that better people developed over long periods of time with random chance kick starting the process.If they accept that a Higher Power started the ball rolling, they would deny who they are.So it's not personal, it's political.

Caveat: As is often the case, BG's post can be ignored without losing anything of relevance.For the reader: A typical theme for those who hold irrational beliefs is, unsuprisingly since they are irrational in their belief, to straw man a "world-view" for an atheist. You can usually spot that activity when words like "came from nothing", "Nazi's and communism", "eugenics", or "objective morality" are included. Atheism can no more constitute a "world view" than "a-astrology" can constitute a world view.A "world-view" is a broad conceptual construct. Two "atheists" can have vastly different world views. If you come across this type of activity, simply point it out to anyone observing the conversation how this is fallacious.

[Balloon guy 158]

It is best to deflect when you are unable to accept your world view's flaws.Also; generalize and marginalize, two more useful tools in the atheist debate arsenal.Then pointing out spelling errors and grammar mistakes are the norm.Before pretending that you are right by virtue of being right.

[vbnautilus 48]

It is best to deflect when you are unable to accept your world view's flaws.Also; generalize and marginalize, two more useful tools in the atheist debate arsenal.Then pointing out spelling errors and grammar mistakes are the norm.Before pretending that you are right by virtue of being right.

Not your best work.

[Balloon guy 158]

Not your best work.

Tired, finishing the move to new shop.

[SweetDee 0]

Stupid. Murder is pretty much all that needs to be said to point out why.Disgusting. Vapid, apologetic, unsupported, armchair psycho-babble.Uninformed tripe. Implying that rape is about lust, rather than violence and power. Implying that someone who wouldn't cultivate the desire to have sex with an adult woman and act upon it consensually has any fucking relevance when talking about a pedophile. You fucking moron. More vapid, fallacious, bald assertion. Every line of your post was idiotic. Caveat: As is often the case, BG's post can be ignored without losing anything of relevance.For the reader: A typical theme for those who hold irrational beliefs is, unsuprisingly since they are irrational in their belief, to straw man a "world-view" for an atheist. You can usually spot that activity when words like "came from nothing", "Nazi's and communism", "eugenics", or "objective morality" are included. Atheism can no more constitute a "world view" than "a-astrology" can constitute a world view.A "world-view" is a broad conceptual construct. Two "atheists" can have vastly different world views. If you come across this type of activity, simply point it out to anyone observing the conversation how this is fallacious.

Where did you get that following these two commandments and these two ALONE would prevent someone from being a rapist or pedophile? That's not what I was saying, the point was that a person who could pay attention to these "little" things (and many more, it's not like there are only two biblical concepts in that big ass book) would never need to be told "Hey, man, don't have sex with kids." I never said it was only these two things. As far as murder warranting a commandment, well, at the time, murder was an issue, even for Gods people. God would send them to war to kill, but a line needed to be drawn. As far as rape being about power and violence rather than lust, sure, but it doesn't start that way. Lust is one of many first steps, anger, violence, power, they come later. It's a progression for the person over time where eventually they become capable of rape. Same for a pedophile, it's not like one day you wake up and you want to **** kids, it's a progression. No one just wakes up one day pissed off looking to rape a chick, and no one just wakes up one day looking to **** kids.

[BaseJester 1]

I never said it was only these two things. As far as murder warranting a commandment, well, at the time, murder was an issue, even for Gods people. God would send them to war to kill, but a line needed to be drawn.

It's important to keep in mind the cultural context of the 10 commandments. Since murder was part of the society, the question is not whether or not murder is good, but how to be a good murderer or murder victim. For instance, murderers should not make their victims suffer unnecessarily and murder victims should die stoically to make a good example for their children.No, you should not take this post literally.

[vbnautilus 48]

Pedophilia not much of an issue when people are marrying 12 year olds and don't have the Internet.

[brvheart 1,752]

Oops. This has been discussed already.

[brvheart 1,752]

Where did you get that following these two commandments and these two ALONE would prevent someone from being a rapist or pedophile? That's not what I was saying, the point was that a person who could pay attention to these "little" things (and many more, it's not like there are only two biblical concepts in that big ass book) would never need to be told "Hey, man, don't have sex with kids." I never said it was only these two things. As far as murder warranting a commandment, well, at the time, murder was an issue, even for Gods people. God would send them to war to kill, but a line needed to be drawn. As far as rape being about power and violence rather than lust, sure, but it doesn't start that way. Lust is one of many first steps, anger, violence, power, they come later. It's a progression for the person over time where eventually they become capable of rape. Same for a pedophile, it's not like one day you wake up and you want to **** kids, it's a progression. No one just wakes up one day pissed off looking to rape a chick, and no one just wakes up one day looking to **** kids.

Oh no.

[SilentSnow 1]

It is best to deflect when you are unable to accept your world view's flaws.

Can you list the flaws of Atheism?I think the bible discussion is played out and this might be a different angle than the usual atheist offense/christian defense talk.