akoff 0 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 We are still broke and we are going to have to help pay for this...i realize many of you think if we just tax the rich all of our problems will go away - but they won't. Every single person, every single child both alive today and coming for the next generation or two is going to pay.The Public unions can protest all they want, the private Unions can bus all the goons to Wis or where ever is next to protest but they are goin to pay and the public sector Unions are problably going to pay the most in terms of percentage. That seems fair to me since they skimmed the most over the last couple of decades. Link to post Share on other sites
85suited 0 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 The point! I've missed it!That's obvious Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 We are still broke and we are going to have to help pay for this...i realize many of you think if we just tax the rich all of our problems will go away - but they won't. Every single person, every single child both alive today and coming for the next generation or two is going to pay.The Public unions can protest all they want, the private Unions can bus all the goons to Wis or where ever is next to protest but they are goin to pay and the public sector Unions are problably going to pay the most in terms of percentage. That seems fair to me since they skimmed the most over the last couple of decades.except Walker is not asking "everyone" to pay. He is cutting from public unions to help pay for 67 million in tax cuts for businesses. If GOP politicians were actually asking "everyone" to pay, I think this might have some merit.Florida is no different, Rick Scott is trying to pass giant business tax cuts while cutting the education budget to the bone.When big business is actually asked to contribute, let me know. At this point, it seems they were asked to bear zero responsibility for a financial crisis they created AND now they are getting a wave of sweetheart tax deals while the GOP makes a scapegoat of teachers.MBN. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 except Walker is not asking "everyone" to pay. He is cutting from public unions to help pay for 67 million in tax cuts for businesses. If GOP politicians were actually asking "everyone" to pay, I think this might have some merit.Florida is no different, Rick Scott is trying to pass giant business tax cuts while cutting the education budget to the bone.When big business is actually asked to contribute, let me know. At this point, it seems they were asked to bear zero responsibility for a financial crisis they created AND now they are getting a wave of sweetheart tax deals while the GOP makes a scapegoat of teachers.MBN. Government unions in Wisconsin perfectly match the definition of "special interests," a term Obama often invokes. Four of the top six Wisconsin contributors to the 2010 elections were labor unions, with the state's teachers union giving $119,342 and the Wisconsin chapter of the American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees spending $83,888. The teachers union gave 96 percent of its money to Democrats, while Wisconsin AFSCME gave Democrats every penny.Government unions spent $573,868 on Wisconsin's 2010 elections -- almost all of it going to Democrats -- while government employees spent another half million, with most going to Democrats.The total compensation of a West Bloomfield teacher grew 173 percent over an 11-year period, going from $47,346 to $129,637, according to information that was presented at a school board meeting in December.The teacher’s salary started at $31,881 in 1999-00 and grew to $85,836 in 2010-11. Meanwhile, insurance payments climbed from $9,309 to $19,304 per year, and retirement contributions jumped from $3,717 to $16,854 per year. Here's Pennsylvania:Currently, some educators retire with pensions of $7,000 per month. In 2012, their retirement entitlement will be increased substantially. These are people whose work schedule amounted to 40 weeks per year, and according to a Gannett newspaper study were instructionally involved less than four hours a day. Presently, taxpayers are required to pay 8 percent of educator payroll to supplement their pension fund. In 2012, the taxpayer contribution will rise to a shocking 29.22 percent and is expected to remain at that rate indefinitelyAnd what was the last time the WI teachers unions were upset?Don't take away my Viagra! Link to post Share on other sites
Skeleton Jelly 2 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I'm glad nobody is going to address hblask's comments on the actual bill; I didn't want to actually think about opposing arguments. Link to post Share on other sites
Canary3 1 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 National Academic Achievement Stats don't apply equally to the US, since the whole "race/intelligence" thing is totally real and a full 12% of our population is extracted from Africa with another 13% or so from the Latin countries... Comparing Hong Kong, Finland or Japan to the ethnic trash-can that is the US is completely dishonest. If you want to compare the US to Finland, then use white kids in Michigan as the control group... What you see there is the unfortunate side of the melting pot in action but since we're supposed to toe the 'all people are equal' line/delusion, we can't mention that if you broke those stats down by race, you would soon learn that 1) Unlike pretty much everyplace else, the US is intensely diverse place2) The most relevant modifier of academic achievement isn't nationality. It's race. I agree with both #1 and #2 if you broke it down by statistics. If you take it one step further, economic class is the most relevant modifier of academic achievement Link to post Share on other sites
Skeleton Jelly 2 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Uh-oh. Link to post Share on other sites
Canary3 1 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Quote from hblaskThe first sentence seems fine, the second makes no sense at all. Why would they be able to stay in the club if they don't pay the membership?Not requring members to pay dues weakens unions. People will stop paying if they can be a member without doing so. Link to post Share on other sites
akoff 0 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 except Walker is not asking "everyone" to pay. He is cutting from public unions to help pay for 67 million in tax cuts for businesses. If GOP politicians were actually asking "everyone" to pay, I think this might have some merit.Florida is no different, Rick Scott is trying to pass giant business tax cuts while cutting the education budget to the bone.When big business is actually asked to contribute, let me know. At this point, it seems they were asked to bear zero responsibility for a financial crisis they created AND now they are getting a wave of sweetheart tax deals while the GOP makes a scapegoat of teachers.MBN.our business pay huge amounts, the fact you could begin to think otherwise is delusional at best...it is a different part of the problem but i am not here saying they should be given a break right now...all i am saying is time for the unions start paying their own way. not that they would know anything about that. Link to post Share on other sites
custom36 4 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 our business pay huge amounts, the fact you could begin to think otherwise is delusional at best...it is a different part of the problem but i am not here saying they should be given a break right now...all i am saying is time for the unions start paying their own way. not that they would know anything about that.....but they agreed to pay. They agreed to pay weeks ago. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,752 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 except Walker is not asking "everyone" to pay. He is cutting from public unions to help pay for 67 million in tax cuts for businesses. If GOP politicians were actually asking "everyone" to pay, I think this might have some merit.Florida is no different, Rick Scott is trying to pass giant business tax cuts while cutting the education budget to the bone.When big business is actually asked to contribute, let me know. At this point, it seems they were asked to bear zero responsibility for a financial crisis they created AND now they are getting a wave of sweetheart tax deals while the GOP makes a scapegoat of teachers.MBN.... Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,752 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Not requring members to pay dues weakens unions. People will stop paying if they can be a member without doing so.I think SJ wanted someone to respond to Hblask's post by saying something meaningful. Link to post Share on other sites
85suited 0 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 ....but they agreed to pay. They agreed to pay weeks ago.Wisconsin teachers and other public employees pay virtually nothing (1%) for their pension. Walkers proposal is for them to pay 5.8% (below the national avg btw)they pay 6% for their healthcare and they are asking they go to 12% (less than natl avg)He’s taking away the right to collectively bargain on pensions and benefits, but not on wages. though wage increases will be capped at the rate of inflationIn Illinois our governor just borrowed 3.7 BILLION dollars to pay for pensions...He just kicked the can down the road to the next elected politician Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Wisconsin teachers and other public employees pay virtually nothing (1%) for their pension. Walkers proposal is for them to pay 5.8% (below the national avg btw)they pay 6% for their healthcare and they are asking they go to 12% (less than natl avg)average wisconsin teachers salary for a 180 day school year is 78,000In Illinois our governor just borrowed 3.7 BILLION dollars to pay for pensions...He just kicked the can down the road to the next elected politicianI'd be stunned if the bolded is true.(and....it's not: http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/wisconsin.html Only off by 26 thousand dollars though, juuuuuust a bit outside.And again, they agreed to all this. They just don't agree that ending CB rights is a "fiscal issue" as Walker claimed today. And I agree with them. He got his cuts; the rest of it is just ****ing with the union. Link to post Share on other sites
85suited 0 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 i was editing that when u replied... actively looking for multiple sources...but that 78k is wrong Link to post Share on other sites
85suited 0 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 And again, they agreed to all this. They just don't agree that ending CB rights is a "fiscal issue" as Walker claimed today. And I agree with them. He got his cuts; the rest of it is just ****ing with the union.it is too a fiscal issue - i like the way it was put belowpublic-sector unions will become more expensive the more political power they have — they, like everybody else, seek greater pay and benefits using the means available to them. So restricting public-sector unions’ political and bargaining power is obviously a component of restoring sanity to the budget in the long term matthew schafer Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 They could just negotiate better and convince voters and legislators that they are correct. Just cutting off their bargaining rights is an admission that they have no faith in their own argument and fear the union and want to cut it down to size. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,752 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Cane, why do you think people should be forced to join unions? Link to post Share on other sites
85suited 0 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 They could just negotiate better and convince voters and legislators that they are correct. Just cutting off their bargaining rights is an admission that they have no faith in their own argument and fear the union and want to cut it down to size.voters in wisconsin voted for this & elected legislators to enact thisWalker was explicit about his intention to cut wages and benefits and generally take on the public sector. He ran on it. He had a reputation for anti-public-sector action as county executive in Milwaukee. During his campaign, the unions themselves issued flyers warning that he would take away collective-bargaining rights if elected. He never denied that he would take on collective-bargaining privilegesWalker won 52/46...I believe it was Obama who said when to a group of Republican Leaders when elected "I won" and that the people had spoken..btw he won 53/46 Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 i was editing that when u replied... actively looking for multiple sources...but that 78k is wrongI think the 78K is with benefits, the actual number is somewhere in the mid-50s. I'm too lazy to look it up.But mid-50's is still pretty good for 3/4th of a year in an air-conditioned white collar job.I'm still waiting for someone to explain why "members get to vote on whether they want in or out" is weakening the unions. Are the unions that terrible that everyone will leave if given a choice? If so, how can anyone justify forcing people to stay? If not, why is this even a concern? Again, it seems the unions are trying to have it both ways.One other point: education spending has gone up 20% per year for the last decade. Teachers' salaries have gone up 2%. What the hell are the unions doing? Aiming for administrative bloat? Link to post Share on other sites
custom36 4 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Interesting find from Forbes: Taxpayers contribute $0 to state employee pensions Link to post Share on other sites
custom36 4 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Republicans created a rule that would force protesters out of the building by 6pm and Gov. Walker told the police to enforce it. The head of the police union in Wisconsin sent Walker a letter that essentially said that not only will they allow protesters to continue sleeping in the capitol building, but that they will be sleeping with the protesters this weekend (this explains the parade of 100's of protesting police officers into the building tonight, to a 20 minute standing ovation). This might be my favorite story yet. Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 ....as he continues to evade discussing what is actually in the bill..... Link to post Share on other sites
FCP Bob 1,312 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Republicans created a rule that would force protesters out of the building by 6pm and Gov. Walker told the police to enforce it. The head of the police union in Wisconsin sent Walker a letter that essentially said that not only will they allow protesters to continue sleeping in the capitol building, but that they will be sleeping with the protesters this weekend (this explains the parade of 100's of protesting police officers into the building tonight, to a 20 minute standing ovation). This might be my favorite story yet.This one I have a problem with.The police are a para-military organization and correct me if I'm wrong but the Governor is commander in chief for the State. Police Officers like military personnel have no right to refuse an order from above. Link to post Share on other sites
custom36 4 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 This one I have a problem with.The police are a para-military organization and correct me if I'm wrong but the Governor is commander in chief for the State. Police Officers like military personnel have no right to refuse an order from above.You are correct. And I completely see why you (and others will) have a problem with it. After this, I wouldn't be surprised to see some National Guard coming out. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now