laying down AA preflop

[penne 0]

i'm sorry but i totally disagree with the laydown. i don't know about anybody else but when i play a tourney i play to win...not just to make the money. if i'm not first its a total failure. you obviously have the best hand pre-flop with those aces, if you do quadrouple up you'll be great shape to make a run at winning the thing, if you lose at least you went out with the best hand possible...no shame in that. the best players always play for first.

[smurdogg 0]

I watched last week's WPT show and they had a segment with everyone talking about their favorite hands, Daniel obviously mentioned 10-7 and then (I think it was him) said the only hand I would NEVER lay down is Aces.

[wastedpawn 0]

I'd like to know what these three other hands that the people were going all in with to make AA only 40% to win.cards win %win As Ac 696699 64.15Ks Kh 111095 10.23 Ad Kd 94630 8.71 Qc Qh 170368 15.69 cards win %win As Ac 670550 61.74 Jh Th 198392 18.27 Ad Kd 107910 9.94 Ks Kh 98027 9.03 cards win %win As Ac 592034 54.51 Jd Jh 147993 13.63 Qc Qh 153196 14.11 Ks Kh 188364 17.34 Most of the time even with multiple callers, your AA is going to be the favorite anyway. Not only that, if the other players are actually calling with premium hands, they might be holding each other's outs (like AK and KK).Only way I'm folding AA preflop is if there is a significant monetary gain by letting the other people knock each other out (i.e. final table and big gaps in payouts). You have to get your chips in at some point and while you may only be a 60 / 40 favorite, the amount you can gain is great. Oh, I found one:cards win %win As Ac 508938 46.86 Jh Th 225600 20.77 Ad Kd 128112 11.80 7c 6c 219346 20.20 Though I'm not sure that you're likely to see those hands all going all in after each other.

[Ebonwoulfe 0]

I don't know if this is covered later on in the thread, but the exact situation was that they were playing PL Hold 'em cash game, he was five off the button, UTG bet the pot, as did the next, and the next. This was the exact amount needed to put him all in. He knew that since he couldn't bet the pot again (the correct play, to be sure) that all three were likely to call. That would put his ENTIRE bankroll at risk. It was early on in the evening, and he figured as long as he had a bankroll, he could beat this game.

[srharris22 0]

One thing no one has mentioned: what if one of the other players held aces??? It is not that much of a stretch as how many times have each of us split a pot with aces, kings or queens. Or actually as I lost with kings to kings yesterday, four card flush on river. I bring this up b/c i have read TJ talking about the times he has laid down kings b/c he KNEW the other guy had aces. Well what if this guy knew the game well enough that one of the other players had to have aces. then how about those odds, that he would only split the pot if aces held up. Well besides my off the wall comment.i read the same article and two main facts that were left out are this: 1. this was a ring game - no-limit hold-em (vs tourney) and 2. the guy sat down with 3000 dollarsThe biggest part is that this guy would have been all-in JUST TO CALL preflop in a ring game. No way to bully anyone off a draw or possibly catching 2 pair on the river. the other players in where stated to have more money, no one else was all in. now we don't get any info as to if this game was fast and loose or tight and aggressive. even with that said, personally, i would lay down aces also b/c either way, if the guy is any kind of player he can probably beat it better than the odds he was being given. The big point here is that he was short stacked probably to about most of the table as it sounds, so why is that? Is he a good player taking a shot at the bigger game with all or a big piece of his bankroll. Or is he a really good player using about 1/3 of his bankroll looking at maybe a 30- 40 percent chance of doubling up to quadrupling up. PS maybe my math is wrong but who is the idiot that said you wil make a set 20 percent of the time. i guess that makes drawing to an outside straight about 80 percent odds since you have 4 times as many outs?

[NUTTYMATT 0]

i think its roughly 1/8 on the flop and 1/5 after all 5 cards r down .i think 20% is right if u see all the cards

[looshle 6]

it is roughly 20 % to hit a set which is why a pair vs an underpair is about 4:1.

[srharris22 0]

i actually meant to include the fact that also with that many people in that someone else would not be holding an ace so that math would go out the window. got derailed and lost my train of thought, oops.

[McBandit 0]

There ARE times when it is correct to lay down AA preflop in tourneys. It is covered in Sklansky's Tournament Poker for Advanced Players. I will say that the number of times you will be faced with such a situation in a lifetime of poker can probably be counted on one hand.Sklansky states that you should only fold AA late in a tournament however, with the overriding consideration being "making the most money possible". If you are only concerned with winning the tourney, then you should never fold AA, but if I am at the final table and I can make $1,000,000 gauranteed extra by folding, then I will.Here is a scenario. 5-handed final table of WSOP main event.Player 1: 10,000,000Player2: 1,000,000Player3: 1,050,000Player4: 975,000You: 200,000Payouts are like the 2004 WSOP:$5m$3.5m$2.5m$1.5$750KPlayers 2,3 and 4 go all-in preflop and the action is to you.If you call and win (say 50% of the time):Player1: 10,000,000Player2: 2,400,000You: 800,000You are likely going to finish 3rd and get $2.5m. The other 50% of the time you finish 5th and get $750KIf you fold:Player1: 10,000,000Player2: 3,000,000You: 200,000There may also be 1 or 2 guys with like 50K and who will be all-in on virtually any cards in their next BB.You have a great shot at 3rd 100% of the time because you folded.Now, I don't know about you, but with 1.75m difference between 3rd and 5th, I will definately be folding AA in this spot. If you are already a multi-millionaire like most of the top pros, then maybe the title is worth more than $1,750,000 to you, but I'll take the cash.McBandit.Oh, and as far as cash games, you would need a crowbar to pry them from my hand. If one hand of pot-limit is gonna threaten your bankroll, then you are playing over your head.

[Guest XXEddie]

That's a very good example of when to fold AA. I have heard and participated in many arguements about this: "Would you ever fold AA pre-flop?" It's obvious the answer is yes. This example is a really good example of why.Althought I can't think of a time where AA isn't worse that a mere a coin flip, a coin flip for all your money should be avoided if possible. Another example of when to fold a big hand is during the bubble. I was accused of cheating once when I folded AK pre-flop. I had a huge chip lead and was sitting at one of the two tables left, around 15 places paid, and I was bullying the whole table. I was in the small blind with AK when the button (a friend of mine) went all in. Being the big stack I should call, right? I didn't see it that way. Long story short, I mucked the hand and someone flipped it face up at the table! I know it's illegal but it was mostly friends and other poker freaks. If it were AA, I would have done the same. I could get more chips bullying everyone than busting out a few short stacks.There is plenty of times to fold AA before the flop in no-limit (cash or tournament).

Wait? did you just say its was a good example of laying down aces pre-flop?? lol thats a good oximoron. The word "fold" should not been in your vocabulary when you have aces pre-flop. Sure youre only %40 to win the hand, but thats a better chance than anyone else has

[Eskimo 0]

Wait? did you just say its was a good example of laying down aces pre-flop?? lol thats a good oximoron. The word "fold" should not been in your vocabulary when you have aces pre-flop. Sure youre only %40 to win the hand, but thats a better chance than anyone else has

I think you're missing the point. I doesn't matter what everyone else's chances are individually. What matters is the sum of everyone's chances because any of those hands could knock you out. Statistically, folding would be the better option since you will lose 60% of the time.

[Kalf 0]

precisely- eskimo.I've said it once, and I'll say it again. The author of the article wasn't advocating laying down AA in any situation other than in the one described. It is an incredibly rare situation. But let's not forget- AA is nothing other than a pair. Against that many people someone is bound to be able draw to better than one pair.let's put this baby to bed.

[Smasharoo 0]

But let's not forget- AA is nothing other than a pair. Against that many people someone is bound to be able draw to better than one pair. Only matters occasionally in a tournamnet.In a ring game you'd call if 9 people were all in before you.At least I'd hope you would.

[slappy110 0]

me and some of my buddies were discussing poker strategy and tournament strategy and i came up with this, where its okay to fold aces preflop: say its the later stages of the tournament...youre chipleader and everyones on the bubble....the short stack moves in on you and you got aces..what do you do? my theory here says fold them because youre most likely going to bust the guy...which is a shortstack that wont make any difference in your relative chip position, but you also relieve the other players from playing on the bubble which takes away a very large part of your edge...basically, the question is: do i want to bust this guy and increase my stack just a little bit, or do i want to keep him in and keep exploiting this particular situation....think about it guy...i would be VERY interested to hear what Dan the Man has to say about this

[Tiburon41 0]

precisely- eskimo.I've said it once, and I'll say it again.  The author of the article wasn't advocating laying down AA in any situation other than in the one described.  It is an incredibly rare situation.  But let's not forget- AA is nothing other than a pair.  Against that many people someone is bound to be able draw to better than one pair.let's put this baby to bed.

If I have AA, I'd take my chances. Sure you have a shot at being outdrawn, you always do. On any hand. Hey, AA vs. 23o with a 2-3-2 flop still sucks. But if you're going to go all-in and take the shot, I'd rather do it with AA than anything else. I don't think I'd lay down AA pre-flop if you put a gun to my head...That being said, I just laid down QQ pre-flop last night... <sigh>

[KKsuited 0]

Not mush to say in this one.Only way I laydown AA is in a satelite on the bubble. Any other time, no way.Anyone who says folding AA against 3 other players because they are only 56% to win doesn't understand the math of the game IMO.Whoever said folding AA against a shortstack was a good play is also crazy.KK, AK, QQ, those are different stories. AA, like TJ said, you have to play it. You have the best chance of winning the hand, no matter what.PS - Hoyt Corkins told me he will never laydown KK preflop either. He said its about 22-1 that AA and KK get dealt in the same hand. So he was okay with getting busted by AA 1 in 22 times he gets KK.

[jklimtsc 0]

I'll reiterate what's already been said. To all of you talking about pot odds and the long run, this is a tournament situation, it is not about the long run, it's about winning plain and simple. You can't win a tournament if you haven't got any chips left, this guy folds to three other all ins, worst case scenario he has effectively moved up one position in the pay out structure, unfortunately the original post doesn't tell us how many people are left in the tournament at this point but that doesn't really matter either. If it's early in the tournament your goal is to survive, if it's late your goal is to win, both situations warrant a fold here, you never ever want to put all of your chips in the pot when you are clearly an underdog to win the hand.

[Smasharoo 0]

If it's early in the tournament your goal is to survive, if it's late your goal is to win, both situations warrant a fold here, you never ever want to put all of your chips in the pot when you are clearly an underdog to win the hand.3 people left, all equal sized stacks. !st place pays $10,000,0000 2nd and third win you a set of steak knives.Still not calling?

[Guest XXEddie]

Wait? did you just say its was a good example of laying down aces pre-flop?? lol thats a good oximoron. The word "fold" should not been in your vocabulary when you have aces pre-flop. Sure youre only %40 to win the hand, but thats a better chance than anyone else has

I think you're missing the point. I doesn't matter what everyone else's chances are individually. What matters is the sum of everyone's chances because any of those hands could knock you out. Statistically, folding would be the better option since you will lose 60% of the time.

Ok maybe your only 40% to win the hand, but thats is a better shot then anyone else has. There no reason to fold AA pre-flop...unless maybe is against 6-9 people. Even against three others Aces are still the favorite...unless you have something like 22, 33, 44...etc, why would you fold the best hand?

[jklimtsc 0]

3 people left, all equal sized stacks.  !st place pays $10,000,0000 2nd and third win you a set of steak knives.Still not calling?

First of all show me the tournament with 10 Million for first and nothing for second and third and I'll show you a tournament your an idiot for playing in . Secondly the example given was three people in the pot before he folded so he would have been the fourth making the Aces a 3:2 dog to win the hand your example is against two other players which makes you a 3:2 favorite with Aces.

[KidKanuck 0]

I can't come up with a scenario where the pot odds do not justify a call in cash games. It looks almost impossible to fold pre-flop in a cash game.

Mathematically it would be foolish in a cash game....but I would suggest that if you are sitting at a table where you are running over and outplaying all the players and have been for a reasonable amount of time to know it is not luck and you are very confident that you will continue run over the game until you have the last chip on the table...absolutely laying it down would be a reasonable idea....basically less risk for the same reward.just a thought....and no I don't profess to be an expert....just opinionated :-)KK

[JFarrell20 1]

Yeah we get it. It's just like when people say "Oh he didn't win the MAJORITY of the vote" He won the PLURALITY. Say candidate 1 gets 45% candidate 2 gets 40% candidate 3 gets 15%Candiadate 1 will win without getting the MAJORITY. I just love hearing people on CNN diss elected officials for not getting the "Majority" of the popular vote! lol. "Most people didn't want him to win..." WAAA WAAAAAAA. Anyway, yes, you make a good point. This is something I pondered a couple weeks ago and realized I would fold AA if three people were all in ahead of me. (Can you imagine being on the WPT final table for the first time and having to do this?) lol. Trying to explain to your cousin back home that laying down AA was the right move. Haha, you'd never live it down. But yes, even though AA is a favorite against those hands to start, there is a 60% (or whatever you say it is) chance that one of the 3 other hands will get lucky and pass you before the hand is done.

[JFarrell20 1]

No one's confused about the odds.The only argument for not calling here is that you'll outpley most other players after the flop and you can wait for better opportunities.In a cash game only a moron would fold here.Think about it this way- Out of four hands, where all 5 board cards will be exposed because all the chips are in, how often is ONE PAIR going to win?  A lot actually, and you're going to hit a set 20% of the time and that's going to hold up quite a bit.Overall I'd say AA will win here...about 40% of the time./sigh  Sometimes I feel guilty because it's too easy.

Why are you such a jerk smash? This hand is a LOSER 60% of the time! Don't you get it? The only reason why you'd call is because if you DO win, you will triple up. Pot odds would tell you to play it, I suppose. 60% of the time you will lose all your money and be out. 40% of the time you will triple up (or quadruple up technically). So it just comes down to do you want to gamble. This all depends on what stage you are at in the tournament, etc. Maybe you are the chipleader? I think it's a definite fold in that case. Are you short stacked, and the next 10 places pay the same?? CALL! Technically, pot odds say you will win 4 out of every 10 times, and your money factor increases by 3 when you win. 60% of the time it decreases by a factor of 1. So if you play the hand 10 times, the factor ends up at +6. (4x3)-(6x1) = 6. So after 10 times, your money would be worth 6 times as much as in the beginning (if this was a stock I'd definitely buy. lol). In the long run, each time you play this you should increase your money by 60%. Now the decision is just "Do I want to gamble THIS TIME".Also, Smash, you say that your AA will improve to trips 20% of the time? I disagree, considering 3 others are all in, there is a HIGH PROBABILITY that 1 or both aces are gone. Anyway, AA usually loses to a straight or flush and even if you improve to trips, you still cant beat the straight or the flush (which is highly likely now b/c the board has an Ace and you assume the others could easily all be playing paint cards that the Ace helped improve them to a straight.)You need to think a little harder before you open your mouth Smash, you aren't God, remember? (I know this because you don't believe in God, so therefore you cannot be God).

[JFarrell20 1]

This is interesting... the more I think about it. Let me say this:The same reason people are saying you should fold is the same reason others are saying you should call. Think about that.The reason is: People in the pot.The folders say: More people in the pot means less likely you'll hold up.The callers say: More people in the pot means more money when you win!This is an interesting phenomenon. The only other factor is SITUATION.I've heard all the "if you are short stacked, call" and "If you are chipleader fold.." those make sense, but how 'bout this:9 players left and everyone goes all in (you are on the button with an average chipstack).If you call and hold up the tournament is over you won.If you call and lose, you are gone in roughly 5th place (since you had average chipstack to start).If you fold, then it is assumed that 7 people will get knocked out, leaving you and the now MASSIVE CHIPLEADER. lol. So you finish second... So it's either 1st, 2nd, or 5th. I believe the best thing to do here is (unless you care about bracelets or trophies) fold, and get the guaranteed 2nd with a monster payout.

[Guest XXEddie]

If it's early in the tournament your goal is to survive, if it's late your goal is to win, both situations warrant a fold here, you never ever want to put all of your chips in the pot when you are clearly an underdog to win the hand.3 people left, all equal sized stacks.  !st place pays $10,000,0000 2nd and third win you a set of steak knives.Still not calling?

Correction...all good plays are playing to win right from the start, all bad players try to survive in the beginning and near the money. I bet you are one of those players who just plays to make the money, and doesnt wanna go out so close to the money. Good players play to win, and if they really dont care if there is 10 people or 10,000 people left. GOOD players would never fold AA pre-flop...thats just idiotic. Playing to "survive" is the worst strategy in the poker world