Is This A Cooler? Or Does The Turn Raise Tell Me He Has A Better Hand

[shynepo3 0]

on the turn, i figure im losing to q/10 (which i thought he might have the most of the hands that's beating me) 22, 33, and 1010 (unlikely due to preflop)...i'm beating any lone q and air....so should i fold here? once the river pairs the 3, i'm now beating q/10, so i think it's irrelevant at that point...but the turn...hmmmm...WE ARE both very deep, which makes me think i should consider folding on the turn or raise/fold...stupid limping players...makes me wonder if the q didnt fall and it was an under card to a q, would it played out the same way...some hands later, no lie, i have 7/6 suited in the bb...utg limps, i check...flop comes j 7 6...turn 7...we get it all in...he has jj.....should i just assume every limp is a big pp? lol..Full Tilt Poker $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 766914The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterCO: $10.90BTN: $2.00SB: $5.24BB: $2.00UTG: $11.51Hero (UTG+1): $9.22UTG+2: $4.18MP1: $2.07MP2: $3.48Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is UTG+1 with K K :diamond:UTG calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.30, 7 folds, UTG calls $0.25Flop: ($0.67) 3 2 T (2 players)UTG checks, Hero bets $0.40, UTG calls $0.40Turn: ($1.47) Q (2 players)UTG checks, Hero bets $0.94, UTG raises to $2.50, Hero calls $1.56River: ($6.47) 3 (2 players)UTG bets $1, Hero raises to $6.02 all in, UTG calls $5.02

[Ninja Ace 1]

Stop posting resultsYou're too deep to be stacking off with KK here unless you have reads... but it is 02/05 so it's not that terrible

[shynepo3 0]

I posted the results because i thought it's obvious when i put in it the title...but i get ya, i'll refrain in future posts....so this would normally be a fold on the turn after the raise? or would you re-raise/fold?edit **actually a re-raise would be no use since all the money would go in at that point..so fold to the raise?

[rrumsey 0]

what was your plan on the turn? were you planning to bet fold?as to your interest in limping early, before you write someone off for being a total donk notice what they are showing down from these plays, loads of bad players limp to try and keep people in. I mean how aggro where you, if you were the pivot of the table trying to trap you by being passive isnt that bad a play. you got to remember to think to try and read into the play. I mean some just suck and do this for no reason other then they just do, where as some try and do it by trying to (im not saying i agree with it or like it) do it by using some leveling. Stay mindful. but yes most suck, but dont just assume

[rrumsey 0]

Stop posting resultsYou're too deep to be stacking off with KK here unless you have reads... but it is 02/05 so it's not that terrible

I mean yah after we have broken down the hand then you can do this and we can help to plan for how you wanna deal with that villain going forward. We need to keep the enviroment of trying to place ourselves in your shoes so the more you can do ( keep us in the dark on results, better reads, any timing information, anything you have noticed or gained in the chat) helps us help you better and makes it easier to have a vicarious anaylsis.

[trystero 0]

At 5nl that river is the nuts. All-in every day. You lose only to 22/33.3-bet/folding the turn is horrendous

[rrumsey 0]

At 5nl that river is the nuts. All-in every day. You lose only to 22/33.3-bet/folding the turn is horrendous

we didnt 3 bet the turnas played i think i stack off but when i bet turn i have decided if im going with this or not, and he needs to too based off his reads

[jmbreslin 0]

At 5nl that river is the nuts. All-in every day. You lose only to 22/33.

Or TT or QQ or even AA.The check-call flop, check-raise turn there is a very strong move and is typical of big hands. On the turn what could he possibly be playing that Hero beats? If you are going to call the turn check-raise, then I call down the river. The only thing that river card changes is Hero now beats QT and 33 is less likely. But 22, TT, QQ, and AA are still just as likely as they were before and Hero loses to all of them.

[trystero 0]

we didnt 3 bet the turnas played i think i stack off but when i bet turn i have decided if im going with this or not, and he needs to too based off his reads

I didn't think we did?I was responding to this,

WE ARE both very deep, which makes me think i should consider folding on the turn or raise/fold...

[trystero 0]

Or TT or QQ or even AA.The check-call flop, check-raise turn there is a very strong move and is typical of big hands. On the turn what could he possibly be playing that Hero beats? If you are going to call the turn check-raise, then I call down the river. The only thing that river card changes is Hero now beats QT and 33 is less likely. But 22, TT, QQ, and AA are still just as likely as they were before and Hero loses to all of them.

You think AA is remotely possible? QQ too? LOLI haven't played poker in a few months, and I haven't played 5nl Rush ever, but I have a very hard time believing that the game has evolved in such a way that AA/QQ are believably played this way. I can count on one finger the number of times I've seen AA limp/call preflop.Because of the bolded, this river is the nuts. When villain bets $1 into $6, it looks like a blocking bet. So if he has a butchered FH, good for him, but I'm charging him the max for when he has QT and some random shit like AQ. If we assign him TT/22/33/QT, and I'm discounting QQ because this is the stupidest ass way anyone could ever play QQ, then we're 56% on the river. I assume he is never folding for when we raise, and I say that's a fair assumption. Give him QQ and we're 47%, but surely if he's capable of playing QQ this retardedly then he can have a hand like AQ sometimes, too, in which case our equity is tremendous.This hand might be different were the cards to develop in another order, like 33T, because an UTG limping donk has some 3s in his range (like A3o/K3s whatever). But no, not here.

[shynepo3 0]

NO READS...RUSH POKER

[shynepo3 0]

what was your plan on the turn? were you planning to bet fold?as to your interest in limping early, before you write someone off for being a total donk notice what they are showing down from these plays, loads of bad players limp to try and keep people in. I mean how aggro where you, if you were the pivot of the table trying to trap you by being passive isnt that bad a play. you got to remember to think to try and read into the play. I mean some just suck and do this for no reason other then they just do, where as some try and do it by trying to (im not saying i agree with it or like it) do it by using some leveling. Stay mindful. but yes most suck, but dont just assume

this was rush, so it wsn't that i was insanely aggressive or anything.....he showed up wiht QQ...QQ!!!!...edit** and no, i never assume a player is bad because he open limps, as bad as it may be...i sometimes do it...but when it's with a big pokcet pair, from ep, and they get an opportunity to re-raise, then i have no choice but to assume they are bad...i dont see the logic at all... (unless they know they are behind as in this case...damn super users...lol)...

You think AA is remotely possible? QQ too? LOLI haven't played poker in a few months, and I haven't played 5nl Rush ever, but I have a very hard time believing that the game has evolved in such a way that AA/QQ are believably played this way. I can count on one finger the number of times I've seen AA limp/call preflop.Because of the bolded, this river is the nuts. When villain bets $1 into $6, it looks like a blocking bet. So if he has a butchered FH, good for him, but I'm charging him the max for when he has QT and some random shit like AQ. If we assign him TT/22/33/QT, and I'm discounting QQ because this is the stupidest ass way anyone could ever play QQ, then we're 56% on the river. I assume he is never folding for when we raise, and I say that's a fair assumption. Give him QQ and we're 47%, but surely if he's capable of playing QQ this retardedly then he can have a hand like AQ sometimes, too, in which case our equity is tremendous.This hand might be different were the cards to develop in another order, like 33T, because an UTG limping donk has some 3s in his range (like A3o/K3s whatever). But no, not here.

He showed up with QQ!! QQ!!! I thought it was either q/10,. or 33/22..and maybe 10...once the 3 pairs up, it feels like the nuts unless it's 22...lol...

[shynepo3 0]

Or TT or QQ or even AA.The check-call flop, check-raise turn there is a very strong move and is typical of big hands. On the turn what could he possibly be playing that Hero beats? If you are going to call the turn check-raise, then I call down the river. The only thing that river card changes is Hero now beats QT and 33 is less likely. But 22, TT, QQ, and AA are still just as likely as they were before and Hero loses to all of them.

you must be very familiar with how micro stakes rush poker goes...cause i couldn't fathom how he had qq...or even the next few hands where a diff villian had jj..

[jmbreslin 0]

Yes, I play quite a bit of 5NL and 10NL Rush so I'm well familiar with the context. And you simply can't be surprised at anything you see when playing 5NL Rush. Some players just don't like to raise, especially from early position. And those players will often do very strange things postflop in an effort to be fancy or play like the guys they see on television. Players can be very unpredictable at these stakes, so in a situation like this when he gives me a cheap call on the river (assuming I call the turn) I'll take it. I might lose out on some value now and then, but I also cut down on big pots lost.

[Mills 0]

I agree with just calling the river, at these stakes this is a demented way of 'value betting'

[dscoot 0]

you should be estatic to see the river for one buck -- as played.your river raise is a major mental problem, unless you know the opponent

[Acid_Knight 2]

For everyone just saying to call the river:What hands do you expect him to have? You realize we lose to only 22, 33, TT, QQ and AA right? I mean, do you really expect him to show up with any 2x combos with the 3 in it after limp/calling UTG?Do you really think he'd bet $1 on the river with a full house or quads? I don't. I think we're winning the vast majority of the time and a shove is fine and maybe even standard.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Also, you should be folding the turn here most of the time I think. If he's not bluffing, he's gonna show you a set or QT almost all of the time. No other hands really make sense.

[Ninja Ace 1]

doublepostaments

[Ninja Ace 1]

turn is a fold but the river is a jam? wait wut? does the combo remover and QT counterfeit mean that much equity wise to swing the spectrum?Also, this is ****ing five cent no limit, why are you removing nonsensical hands like 2-3, Q-3 etc, AA, and wtf JT from his range?Supermicros its a pretty clear call down... your hand doesn't have a ton of value against his range but there's enough random bullshit to make calling down +EV. Stop giving retards credit

[trystero 0]

turn is a fold but the river is a jam? wait wut? does the combo remover and QT counterfeit mean that much equity wise to swing the spectrum?

Yes it does. When someone bets $1 into $6, what do you ordinarily do? Call? No, from the posts you've made, you jam ATC. So when you have kings on this board, is the correct decision to call?

Supermicros its a pretty clear call down... your hand doesn't have a ton of value against his range but there's enough random bullshit to make calling down +EV.

I posted a range earlier that was supertight and showed we're still +EV against it to jam. This is one of the easiest jams on earth, and the most results-oriented analysis I've seen.

[jmbreslin 0]

For everyone just saying to call the river:What hands do you expect him to have? You realize we lose to only 22, 33, TT, QQ and AA right? I mean, do you really expect him to show up with any 2x combos with the 3 in it after limp/calling UTG?

Even if we just limit the range that beats us to the ones you mention (which I don't think we can necessarily do), the question is what hands does he play up to the river the way he did that Hero beats on the river? The only hand is basically QT. So although there aren't a huge number of hands we lose to, they far outnumber the likely hands we beat.

Do you really think he'd bet $1 on the river with a full house or quads? I don't.

Maybe you wouldn't but lots of micro players would. There are basically two common types of players at these stakes, neither of which understand proper bet sizing: the ones that shove their big hands because they get excited or perhaps they're trying to look like they're bluffing, and the ones that bet ridiculously small with their big hands because they don't want to scare off the money or because they want to entice a raise.

[jmbreslin 0]

I posted a range earlier that was supertight and showed we're still +EV against it to jam. This is one of the easiest jams on earth, and the most results-oriented analysis I've seen.

No, I advocated caution on the river before he posted the results.In lots of cases I would agree that a weak bet is a scared bet with a weak hand, but not in this case based on how villain played the hand up to that point. A small bet on a paired river after check-raising the turn is different than a small bet on the river in lots of other circumstances.

[mtdesmoines 3]

What ... you think he has jacks again?

[trystero 0]

No, I advocated caution on the river before he posted the results.In lots of cases I would agree that a weak bet is a scared bet with a weak hand, but not in this case based on how villain played the hand up to that point. A small bet on a paired river after check-raising the turn is different than a small bet on the river in lots of other circumstances.

...and it's not surprising that you took the "cautious" approach. When a hand is posted, your default line is one of caution and fear. Like here, you assigned AA in villain's range. AA shouldn't even be on your radar. I don't care if every so often some micro-donk has AA in this spot; you ignore that result as an outlier. If someone's hand-reading is in such a way that he suspects AA, and he allows that possibility to influence his behavior, then either his hand-reading is broken or he is playing against opponents whose hands cannot be "read" (in which case you just crush them playing standard positionally-aware poker; effective hand-reading after all is a byproduct of positionally-aware poker). At higher levels, you might run into tricky AAs (but not like this), and you have to consider it as a legitimate possibility. But 99/100 times you "rule out" AA based on the preflop play. The same goes for QQ. Now this guy had QQ, so clearly it isn't crazy to assign it to someone, but it's so out of the ordinary that you 1) ignore it against other opponents when making future decisions and 2) allow it to influence future decisions against this specific player by knowing that he's an idiotic supernit. Of course, in a way it depends on your opposition. I'll give you that. I played a live donkament last weekend, and the players were so atrocious that I would NOT rule out QQ/AA based on their preflop plays. They didn't understand basic strategy, so they didn't understand the value in raising preflop. But most online players, and that pool includes 5nl/10nl, are aware of basic strategy like hand charts and will raise their premiums accordingly. Those who don't are far and away the minority.