Belief In Fantasy Gods. Literalists And Fundamentals.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I don't understand the question, and I won't respond to it.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

L. O. L.

[Roll the Bones 74]

The main point you seem to be hung up on is that the tree is called the Tree of the Knowledge of good and Evil.What does that mean? Does it mean that without eating the fruit you do not know the difference? Or does it mean that you now know that some things are wrong and some things are right?How can you have a person without these traits. Could Adam not have known that killing Eve was bad? could Eve have suffocated her next baby as easily as feeding him and been completely indifferent to either action? Were they both complete and total sociopaths? That doesn't seem to be the case.Then you have the story itself. God gave them conditions about this tree. If you eat the fruit, you will die.Eve when recounting this to the serpent and reworded it to say: "If you eat the fruit, or touch the tree, you will die"

When she ate the fruit, she liked it, and gave some to Adam. If she now knew the difference between right and wrong, then her eating the fruit was one thing, but when she offered it to Adam it was a whole other thing. She had full knowledge when she handed the fruit to Adam, who was 'innocent'.

But the effects caused by this were they began to die, right at that moment, their bodies began the process of dying. Coming from perfection, their bodies broke down much slower than ours, because ours have been diluted for thousands of years, this is the supposed reason why they lived as long as they did, hundreds of years.By your definition, would God have been wrong if after they ate the fruit, they lived 1 minute, then their lungs stopped working?Of course you can see that the process of dying is one that begins and ends. Whether it's over an hour like from a heart attack, a second like from a bullet in the brain, or a year like from cancer.So God didn't lie. They began to die form that moment on. they were not going to die if they didn't eat the fruit, now they are.What does the meaning of the name Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil mean then?It means that now they had experiential knowledge of sin, they had just committed it. They now knew the experience of being separated from God ( The Bible in the NT tells us that sin separates us from the Love of God. )Their knowledge was that they now knew sin. Before they only knew God's love and their love back to Him. They made decisions about doing things that pleased God, because they wanted to please God. Satan painted a picture that eating the fruit gave them supernatural knowledge, but exactly what did Adam and Eve show from that day forward? Only shame and guilt. The story itself explains the effects of the tree, not the words spoken of by the serpent who was tricking them into eating the fruit because he hated them. He wants them to die, he wants all of God's children to suffer and die. And he uses the oldest trick in the book, pretending to grant knowledge that actually only leads to death. He offers a chance to be like God, but instead only gives separation from God.

I love how male scholars made Eve the scapegoat in all this, so sexist even then, probably 586 when they deciphered the ancient texts. I mean weren't Adam, which translates into "human" and eve equals and non-sexist? Weren't they both made in his image??Sexuality came after they ate the apple. God brought humans (the species) into the world, not men and women. Oh, and stop blaming Eve, Adam ate the damn apple of his own freewill. If I was God, I would be soo perturbed at Christian's sexist attitudes.I guess portraying Adam as a Forest Gump fallible male figure sold well the markets even in those days.EDIT re: 586 BCE: Known in Jewish history as "the great divide," the year 586 BCE witnessed the fall of Jerusalem, the destruction of the first Temple, followed by half a century of exile from the promised land. Then, in 532 BCE, after the Babylonians fell to the Persians, Cyrus granted the Israelites the option to return. Those who chose to go back were haunted by the idea that, somehow, their ancestors had tweaked the divine nose and lost the protective shield. But how? Nobody had a clue. The elders who might have remembered were dead, along with their deep, nuanced understanding of the sacred texts and the old, pre-exile Hebrew in which they'd been written. With no place else to look but their sacred writings, when answers weren't forthcoming with sufficient clarity, the role of the interpreter was born.and dug around and found this from a book a read. scholar Tamara Cohn Eskenazi writes, "By referring to adam, the text is not describing an individual but a new class of beings that comprises female and male from the start, both of them in God's image. ... Our humanity comes first; our sexual identity next."So the interpreter's were male and came up with their sexist version of the bible by making Eve the fall "girl". Had a women (or non-sexist male) interpreted the bible it likely would have been much different. The were both created in God's image. He created males and females equally. She was created as an "equal partner" in the beginning of humanity. If the interpreters had decided to just make her less of a being she probably wouldn't be that infamous, but they made her the guilty part in all this and exhonerated the dumbass Adam who was just going along. We wouldn't be seeing all the scantily clad/ vixen images of Eve today as temptress had they (the interpretors) gotten it right in the first place.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

I love how male scholars made Eve the scapegoat in all this, so sexist even then, probably 586 when they deciphered the ancient texts. Oh, and stop blaming Eve, Adam ate the damn apple of his own freewill. If I was God, I would be soo perturbed at Christian's sexist attitudes.I guess portraying Adam as a Forest Gump fallible male figure sold well the markets even in those days.

What?

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

Would everybody* please stop making so much sense!*not everybody

[Roll the Bones 74]

When she ate the fruit, she liked it, and gave some to Adam. If she now knew the difference between right and wrong, then her eating the fruit was one thing, but when she offered it to Adam it was a whole other thing. She had full knowledge when she handed the fruit to Adam, who was 'innocent'.

I love how male scholars made Eve the scapegoat in all this, so sexist even then, probably 586 when they deciphered the ancient texts. I mean weren't Adam, which translates into "human" and eve equals and non-sexist? Weren't they both made in his image??Sexuality came after they ate the apple. God brought humans (the species) into the world, not men and women. Oh, and stop blaming Eve, Adam ate the damn apple of his own freewill. If I was God, I would be soo perturbed at Christian's sexist attitudes.I guess portraying Adam as a Forest Gump fallible male figure sold well in the marketplace even in those days.EDIT re: 586 BCE: Known in Jewish history as "the great divide," the year 586 BCE witnessed the fall of Jerusalem, the destruction of the first Temple, followed by half a century of exile from the promised land. Then, in 532 BCE, after the Babylonians fell to the Persians, Cyrus granted the Israelites the option to return. Those who chose to go back were haunted by the idea that, somehow, their ancestors had tweaked the divine nose and lost the protective shield. But how? Nobody had a clue. The elders who might have remembered were dead, along with their deep, nuanced understanding of the sacred texts and the old, pre-exile Hebrew in which they'd been written. With no place else to look but their sacred writings, when answers weren't forthcoming with sufficient clarity, the role of the interpreter was born.and dug around and found this from a book a read. scholar Tamara Cohn Eskenazi writes, "By referring to adam, the text is not describing an individual but a new class of beings that comprises female and male from the start, both of them in God's image. ... Our humanity comes first; our sexual identity next."So the interpreter's were male and came up with their sexist version of the bible by making Eve the fall "girl". Had a women (or non-sexist male) interpreted the bible it likely would have been much different. The were both created in God's image. He created males and females equally. She was created as an "equal partner" in the beginning of humanity. If the interpreters had decided to just make her less of a being she probably wouldn't be that infamous, but they made her the guilty part in all this and exhonerated the dumbass Adam who was just going along. We wouldn't be seeing all the scantily clad/ vixen images of Eve today as temptress had they (the interpretors) gotten it right in the first place.Okay, edited it with more info but I'm out of time and I'll reread it later if it isn't clear where I was going.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

I just meant that I've never heard people say Adam was blameless and that it was all Eve's fault (except in jokes).

[Roll the Bones 74]

I just meant that I've never heard people say Adam was blameless and that it was all Eve's fault (except in jokes).

Well, men have always interpreted the bible to make women the weaker/subservient of the species. Notice how he threw in the "Adam was Innocent" comment.Okay, so it's always, "if Eve hadn't eaten the damn apple we wouldn't be in this mess". Think about it. She didn't resist temptation. Adam didn't resist temptation either but no one holds him to the same responsiblity for some reason. She is the vixen he ends up the Gump who blamed it on the women. Oh well, the whole damn book is stupid. It was the talking serpent who should be blamed and they both should take responsibility for their actions. It's just that, it's a book that has gone through so many interpretations that even the Christians don't get their own damn stories and it takes us athiest to point out the errancy of their ways.

[Jeepster80125 0]

An Agnostic Manifesto At least we know what we don't know.Pretty interesting.

[SBriand 4]

Well, men have always interpreted the bible to make women the weaker/subservient of the species.

I don't get the issues here...

[Balloon guy 158]

Would everybody* please stop making so much sense!*not everybody

Oh sure, take a shot at me when my name calling days are over.That's like calling Charles Barkley out for a one on one game of 21...in this economy

[Balloon guy 158]

Well, men have always interpreted the bible to make women the weaker/subservient of the species. Notice how he threw in the "Adam was Innocent" comment.Okay, so it's always, "if Eve hadn't eaten the damn apple we wouldn't be in this mess". Think about it. She didn't resist temptation. Adam didn't resist temptation either but no one holds him to the same responsiblity for some reason. She is the vixen he ends up the Gump who blamed it on the women. Oh well, the whole damn book is stupid. It was the talking serpent who should be blamed and they both should take responsibility for their actions. It's just that, it's a book that has gone through so many interpretations that even the Christians don't get their own damn stories and it takes us athiest to point out the errancy of their ways.

Sigh. Do I really need to explain the difference between interpretation and translation again?And for the record, The Jews used to have a standard prayer that they prayed throughout history:Few Jewish religious texts have provoked as much indignation and discomfort as the brief passage that is recited by traditional Jewish men at the beginning of the daily morning prayers: "Blessed are you, Lord, our God, ruler the universe who has not created me a woman.It was the New Testament that said:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

[Mercury69 3]

By Grapthar's Hammer, this thread really blows...

[Mills 0]

I just meant that I've never heard people say Adam was blameless and that it was all Eve's fault (except in jokes).

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." 1 Timothy 2:11-14

[JoeyJoJo 18]

Well, there you go.

[Roll the Bones 74]

I don't get the issues here...

Umm, their miss-interpretation set women back over 2000 years.

[brvheart 1,752]

Well, there you go.

Being blameless and not being directly deceived are two totally different things.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

Being blameless and not being directly deceived are two totally different things.

It says "the woman...was in the transgression." That sounds like putting the blame on her to me.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

It says "the woman...was in the transgression." That sounds like putting the blame on her to me.

maybe that's just referring to part of the garden that's called The Transgression? we've already determined that God wasn't so hot at naming things, right?

[Roll the Bones 74]

God invented sex, He put boundaries on it to make it the best it can be, between a partner for life who you want to raise children with.

Well, actually there was no mention of sex or that there even was different sexes until after the apple incident. Then they were shamed for realizing their nakedness and all, and apparently after they got over the shock of it they realized that they were better off than before since they could now do the dirty. So, in essence, god's punishment for eating the apple was finding a partner to commit to and procreate with.

[Balloon guy 158]

Men > WomenAINEC

[El Guapo 8]

Men > WomenAINEC

LDSO

[Roll the Bones 74]

An Agnostic Manifesto At least we know what we don't know.Pretty interesting.

I just wanted to bump this as a reminder to talk about it later. It is a pretty good article and brings up some questions as to what exactly athiests and agnostics to believe since there are as many versions as there are Christian sects.

[Roll the Bones 74]

Men > WomenAINEC

Well... obviously. And btw, thanks for smiting them down all these years to keep them in there place.

[brvheart 1,752]

It says "the woman...was in the transgression." That sounds like putting the blame on her to me.

If Adam didn't do anything wrong, God wouldn't have kicked him out.