Belief In Fantasy Gods. Literalists And Fundamentals.

[SBriand 4]

Umm, their miss-interpretation set women back over 2000 years.

GOOD!

[JoeyJoJo 18]

If Adam didn't do anything wrong, God wouldn't have kicked him out.

I don't know all the fancy names for bad arguments, but I feel pretty confident this is one of them.

[Roll the Bones 74]

I don't know all the fancy names for bad arguments, but I feel pretty confident this is one of them.

Well, if he acted of his own free will then he did wrong. Unfortunately if they had free will in the Garden of Eden then it wasn't a perfect place to begin with. If they had free will then Adam would have been thniking of humping Eve and maybe some sheep but according to the bible it never occured to them. I mean really, the more you think about it, getting out of that hell hole with all with all the Pumas and Penguins was probably the best damn thing that happened to them.

[Balloon guy 158]

Well... obviously. And btw, thanks for smiting them down all these years to keep them in there place.

Well the rest of the world was putting them in charge of things and stuff, so we had to do something.I mean, the Japanese almost let them walk NEXT TO their husbands.And the Muslims..the rumor was that they were going to let them show their ankles..IN PUBLICSo yea, we had to step in.

[Balloon guy 158]

Well, if he acted of his own free will then he did wrong. Unfortunately if they had free will in the Garden of Eden then it wasn't a perfect place to begin with. If they had free will then Adam would have been thniking of humping Eve and maybe some sheep but according to the bible it never occured to them. I mean really, the more you think about it, getting out of that hell hole with all with all the Pumas and Penguins was probably the best damn thing that happened to them.

OKAY, WELCOME TO THE BIG GAME SHOW!You just pick a door and see what you've won.Behind one door is the Garden of Eden, unlimited food, no having to work, perfect weather always.Behind another door is the world, you will have to work every day, you must fend against bad things that want to hurt you, there will become a place called Cleveland.So go ahead and pick.RTB: I'll take door number 2Let's see..you win the worldRTB: Coooooooooooooooooollllllll, I want to get started right away, can I get a job.In this economy? <laugh track>

[Roll the Bones 74]

Well the rest of the world was putting them in charge of things and stuff, so we had to do something.I mean, the Japanese almost let them walk NEXT TO their husbands.And the Muslims..the rumor was that they were going to let them show their ankles..IN PUBLICSo yea, we had to step in.

Youknow there is no real evidence of True Amazon tribes where women had armies.Except, in the late 1800'sin Africa and apparently they were pretty badasss and beat the shit out of the French for fun, but then again, who doesn't? So, I guess I am being thankful to the Christians for doing a job well done.

[Balloon guy 158]

Youknow there is no real evidence of True Amazon tribes where women had armies.Except, in the late 1800'sin Africa and apparently they were pretty badasss and beat the shit out of the French for fun, but then again, who doesn't? So, I guess I am being thankful to the Christians for doing a job well done.

You think those two things aren't related?

[Roll the Bones 74]

You think those two things aren't related?

haha, touche'

[brvheart 1,752]

I don't know all the fancy names for bad arguments, but I feel pretty confident this is one of them.

You're wrong. It was water-tight.

[Roll the Bones 74]

OKAY, WELCOME TO THE BIG GAME SHOW!You just pick a door and see what you've won.Behind one door is the Garden of Eden, unlimited food, no having to work, perfect weather always.Behind another door is the world, you will have to work every day, you must fend against bad things that want to hurt you, there will become a place called Cleveland.So go ahead and pick.RTB: I'll take door number 2Let's see..you win the worldRTB: Coooooooooooooooooollllllll, I want to get started right away, can I get a job.In this economy? <laugh track>

Yeah, but it beats door #1 by mile since they can't think or feel.Adam- HiEve- HiAdam (* *)Eve (* *)Adam- Seeya laterEve- Where else would I go?

[BaseJester 1]

I think it's important to remember that the author of Genesis (be that God, Moses, or otherwise) had a point. This isn't a clinical laboratory description of facts surrounding creation. They aren't data points waiting for someone to later infuse interpretation and meaning into.To be clear, I'm not disputing the veracity of these facts here. I am merely pointing out that the author has already applied a filter with his views of relevance. We don't, for instance, know if the snake was Lucifer or if Adam had a belly-button or crapped on the first day. Regardless of whether the story was invented or observed, the author did not omit certain facts because he was ignorant of these details. He omitted them because they don't serve his point.Likewise, it's nonsense to dismiss some elements and passage as irrelevant. We know the author thinks they're relevant, because there they are in the text. If he didn't think it mattered who ate the forbidden fruit first, he wouldn't have preserved that narrative. If the name of the tree isn't important, he wouldn't have named it. The author of Genesis is the authority on the meaning of Genesis. Any other attitude bottles the mind.

[Roll the Bones 74]

[Greatest I am 0]

There is nothing contradictory to believing in one thing reflecting on the truth or falseness of another. I can believe that chocolate ice cream is the best ice cream ever, and also believe that The Lakers are the best NBA team franchise in the history of the world. Neither of those beliefs affect the other beliefs validity.

Having a favorite flavor does not impart life and intelligence where none exists.if you want people to pay attention to anything you have to say then you should say it from a belief in reality and not fantasy.

God is the Creator of all life.

Hear say and bible say only. All hear say.

If He decides one life is to eat worms, and another one is to live in the depth of the ocean, what business is it of yours to judge that?Maybe God wanted the snake to be a constant reminder that we have sinned. By seeing his 'changed state' we can always remember that we are not as we were meant to be.Besides animals are under our dominion, they are not their own people.

If under our dominion, then it is to us to decide on punishment and if so, then I would judge that to punish an innocent animal is immoral. So is your God if He did so.

You are implying that Adam was created and immediately unprepared to make the decision he needed to make with regards to eating the fruit.Why do you think you are correct in this.

If not ready then God would be punishing those who do not do evil because they are not ready to recognize it. do you spnk your baby for messing his diapers? No. Then why punish someone who does not know they are sinning if indeed they are?

Is it in your experience in the creation of new life forms that they need a couple days before their brain works right?

All thinking must evolve.

Or have you noticed when you make brand new forms of humans that they don't work right until they get upgrades?

Untrue. Not all forms need upgrades to be what they are born to be. Virus' for one.

You have already posted in this thread that not only would you have eaten the fruit, it would be wrong not to eat the fruit. you've had a few years to think about, yet you came to the same conclusion as Eve.

As stated, you try to deflect by calling knowledge fruit. You as a fantasy believer should have no problem with calling knowledge, knowledge.

I guess you are admitting that the thinking process that comes up with the conclusion to eat the fruit is immature as well as incorrect.

If so then they were using their God given brains. if God did not place decision making as part of their brains then He should not punish them for doing what they cannot help doing. he is immoral if He did and scripture says He did.

So I ask you, why are you so sure about your position then?

As indicated, because of logic and morals that are better than the God you foolishly follow.He forces you to lie to make sense of what He is.RegardsDLAgain, knowing good and evil was not the benefit of eating from that tree, dieing was. Any moral sense you have comes from your inherent understanding of God's laws for your life, not because Eve listened to the serpent

[Greatest I am 0]

Of course by treating this story as history Christians miss the metaphor in it, which is its true value. It's the tree of "knowledge of good and evil" because in our natural, original state, before language and thought, there is no distinction between things: good and evil, up and down, me and you. The phrase which is translated as "good and evil" here is most probably a figure of speech which refers to pairs of opposites, not specifically good and evil. Eating of this tree "brings death" because it brings the distinction between life and death, between one's self and the entire flow of nature. It also leads to the "expulsion from the garden" because once one sees separations, between self and other, one becomes disconnected from nature at large.

Except that your nature includes talking animals.Just so you know, they are not real.Scripture says not to change what is written and here you are saying that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not really that. Stick to the script. RegardsDL

[Greatest I am 0]

Me and vb always talked like this. He is a smart guy who can argue his position well. He also has enough humility to realize that declaring his way the only way isn't something to argue with arrogance.I also hold out hope that when he holds his baby girl for the first time, watches her grow and experiences that miracle, he will soften his position on what is truth.

Yet you declare your way the only way based on hear say alone.Arrogant, perhaps, stupid, absolutely.RegardsDL

[Greatest I am 0]

You are implying that I am 'missing it'.I think you are way off here. Especially since most of my understanding of the Bible and Genesis are right in line with the vast majority of Christians alive and dead.It would be better for you to explain what you think the real meaning is eluding me then to make this type of ambiguous statement that reeks of a superior knowledge looking down on the masses with disdain.

This fits right here.RegardsDL

[Greatest I am 0]

Also: Peter Peter Pumpkin Eater has nothing to do with eating pumpkins.Personally, I don't think the story in and of itself is illogical.

Yep. Snakes really really talk. Trust me. I know where their school is.Perfectly logical. Not.RegardsDL

[Greatest I am 0]

Another small point. In Genesis chapter 2:9 where the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is first mentioned, there is also mentioned another tree mentioned; the Tree of Life.Are you going to next make the claim that until Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of Life they will not be alive?Later God cast them out of Eden so that they cannot eat the fruit from this tree, because they will then live forever. The name of that tree was not the definition of what the fruit of that tree did either.So man was made perfect, and designed to live forever.Then when man brought sin into himself, he lost his destiny to live for ever. God did not want man to live forever if he was plagued with a sin nature. But Christ on the cross took away our sin nature, and nailed it to the cross, so that when we pass from this world to the next, we no longer have this stain on our soul. And then we will be able to live forever again, like we were designed for in the first place.

Yep and disregard all the laws of nature and physics.Dream on. It is no wonder that believers in fantasy have turned a God into man's wish list.RegardsDL

[Greatest I am 0]

Her is an explanation of this from a Bible based apologetic's site:Since everything else God planted in the garden was good, the natural choice of something to choose from would be knowledge of evil. God's plan for Adam and Eve was to enjoy each other and their fellowship with Him without the influence of evil. God did not want Adam and Eve to experience evil or even know about it. However, Satan had already rebelled against God and then tempted Eve to join him in rebellion against God. Satan used the oldest ploy in his playbook of deceit - God is a cosmic killjoy who is trying to keep something good from you.2 Satan first asked Eve about the tree from which they were told not to eat.3 Eve told Satan they were not to eat of the forbidden fruit or they would die. Satan's reply indicated that God was a liar and that He just wanted to keep something good (the fruit) from them, saying, "God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."3 So, Adam and Eve gained knowledge of the difference between good and evil through direct experience, instead of through instruction by God. The text suggests that Adam and Eve had enjoyed daily walks with God through the garden prior to their fall (Genesis 3:8). The knowledge of evil brought fear and shame to Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:10).4 So, the knowledge of good and evil was not a good thing, since it ruined their innocent relationship with God and each other.Return to innocence?This is somewhat speculative, but I believe that we believers will lose our knowledge of evil in heaven. Isaiah 25:85 says that God will wipe all the tears from us and our reproach will be removed (see also Revelation 7:17 and 21:4).6 We will be able to experience and enjoy God directly7 without influence or knowledge of sin and evil.Conclusion:Skeptics claim that God set up Adam and eve to fail by giving them a test that was either too difficult or deceptive. However, the Bible makes it clear that God gave Adam and Eve all they needed - with lots of different trees from which to eat fruit. It is clear that Eve knew she should not eat from the one tree in the middle of the garden that she was instructed to avoid. Instead of believing God and trusting Him, after all He had done for them, Eve chose to believe the lies of Satan (in snake form), and believed that God was lying to her. She ate the forbidden fruit and convinced her husband to do the same, resulting in their loss of innocence and a broken relationship with God and each other. Yes, they now had knowledge of good and evil, but it wasn't quite as originally advertised by the snake. We still have the same choice as Adam and Eve. We can gain the knowledge of evil by directly participating in it or we can believe God and avoid the things He has said are bad for us.So the method of their learning about Good and Evil was not a group of ideas, or a textbook style set of instruction, they found the knowledge of good and evil by their actions of eating the fruit. They chose to disobey, this was all that they gained.

I don't know why you would print something that shows God punishing an innocent snake that was under Satans control.Could you not find something to show God in the right moral light instead of showing Him acting in an immoral way by punishing the snake instead of Satan?You did say that man had dominion over the animals. Right?RegardsDL

[Greatest I am 0]

Because the story makes sense only as a metaphor. It's actually quite a nice story if you read it in terms of literature from a few millennia ago. It's quite advanced for its time, thematically. To me, the main idea is that the self awareness of human beings is a blessing and a curse. Eating the apple represents our emergence from a Rousseauain state of nature into a civilized and conscious people. This is what putting on clothing represents. It means building houses and cities to separate us from nature. It means that we became intelligent to create frameworks such as morality and justice. From that moment on and forevermore, we are able to view the world through these frameworks. Think the opening scene of 2001.The animals in the garden don't have these. They act purely through instinct, not through reason or purpose. They know not evil or good because those are human constructs. Biting the apple gave us reason, which gave us good, but also gave us evil. The two are a ying and yang, and if you create one, you create the other. This is what genesis is. It's the creation of modern man.

I agree. It was man's elevation and not the fall that some of lesser intelligence think it is.If they would stop adding to scripture the way the Bible says not to, they would of course see the truth or your statement.They would of course have to stop believing in fantasy characters too glean the true message.What terrible tragedies realism inflicts on people.That is why they latch on to fantasy. Much easier than thinking.RegardsDL

[Greatest I am 0]

[/b]But the effects caused by this were they began to die, right at that moment, their bodies began the process of dying. Coming from perfection, their bodies broke down much slower than ours, because ours have been diluted for thousands of years, this is the supposed reason why they lived as long as they did, hundreds of years.By your definition, would God have been wrong if after they ate the fruit, they lived 1 minute, then their lungs stopped working?Of course you can see that the process of dying is one that begins and ends. Whether it's over an hour like from a heart attack, a second like from a bullet in the brain, or a year like from cancer.So God didn't lie. They began to die form that moment on. they were not going to die if they didn't eat the fruit, now they are.What does the meaning of the name Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil mean then?It means that now they had experiential knowledge of sin, they had just committed it. They now knew the experience of being separated from God ( The Bible in the NT tells us that sin separates us from the Love of God. )Their knowledge was that they now knew sin. Before they only knew God's love and their love back to Him. They made decisions about doing things that pleased God, because they wanted to please God. Satan painted a picture that eating the fruit gave them supernatural knowledge, but exactly what did Adam and Eve show from that day forward? Only shame and guilt. The story itself explains the effects of the tree, not the words spoken of by the serpent who was tricking them into eating the fruit because he hated them. He wants them to die, he wants all of God's children to suffer and die. And he uses the oldest trick in the book, pretending to grant knowledge that actually only leads to death. He offers a chance to be like God, but instead only gives separation from God.I love how male scholars made Eve the scapegoat in all this, so sexist even then, probably 586 when they deciphered the ancient texts. I mean weren't Adam, which translates into "human" and eve equals and non-sexist? Weren't they both made in his image??Sexuality came after they ate the apple. God brought humans (the species) into the world, not men and women. Oh, and stop blaming Eve, Adam ate the damn apple of his own freewill. If I was God, I would be soo perturbed at Christian's sexist attitudes.I guess portraying Adam as a Forest Gump fallible male figure sold well the markets even in those days.EDIT re: 586 BCE: Known in Jewish history as "the great divide," the year 586 BCE witnessed the fall of Jerusalem, the destruction of the first Temple, followed by half a century of exile from the promised land. Then, in 532 BCE, after the Babylonians fell to the Persians, Cyrus granted the Israelites the option to return. Those who chose to go back were haunted by the idea that, somehow, their ancestors had tweaked the divine nose and lost the protective shield. But how? Nobody had a clue. The elders who might have remembered were dead, along with their deep, nuanced understanding of the sacred texts and the old, pre-exile Hebrew in which they'd been written. With no place else to look but their sacred writings, when answers weren't forthcoming with sufficient clarity, the role of the interpreter was born.and dug around and found this from a book a read. scholar Tamara Cohn Eskenazi writes, "By referring to adam, the text is not describing an individual but a new class of beings that comprises female and male from the start, both of them in God's image. ... Our humanity comes first; our sexual identity next."So the interpreter's were male and came up with their sexist version of the bible by making Eve the fall "girl". Had a women (or non-sexist male) interpreted the bible it likely would have been much different. The were both created in God's image. He created males and females equally. She was created as an "equal partner" in the beginning of humanity. If the interpreters had decided to just make her less of a being she probably wouldn't be that infamous, but they made her the guilty part in all this and exhonerated the dumbass Adam who was just going along. We wouldn't be seeing all the scantily clad/ vixen images of Eve today as temptress had they (the interpretors) gotten it right in the first place.

I found a picture of God/Adam/Jesus.Now I know what this means.Genesis 1:27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.Genesis 1:26-28Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

[vbnautilus 48]

Except that your nature includes talking animals.

It sure does -- what do you think you are?

Just so you know, they are not real.Scripture says not to change what is written and here you are saying that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not really that. Stick to the script.

Perhaps you are not familiar with what a metaphor is. Regards, VB

[Balloon guy 158]

Perhaps you are not familiar with what a metaphor is. Regards, VB

It's hear say that's what it is.Regards,BG

[Greatest I am 0]

It sure does -- what do you think you are? Perhaps you are not familiar with what a metaphor is. Regards, VB

Absolutely. If that is the case then Satan, the snake and God are all metaphors.Who do you think that these imaginary characters represent then?If Eden is a metaphor, do you see God as wining round one with man or losing it?RegardsDL

[Greatest I am 0]

It's hear say that's what it is.Regards,BG

This from a man who will gamble with his soul by belief in hear say and the words of men.Remember that you are not immune to the great deceiver. A metaphor that you believe to be real. Oh I forgot, he deceives the whole world except for you.RegardsDL