Jump to content

Cowboys On Scary Board


Recommended Posts

C'mon man. So you're saying that your poker advice is analogous so telling me the sky is blue? If I go to the doctor and he says "you have problem x, you need surgery," do I just say, "okay doc, whatever you say"? Absolutely not. I ask questions because I want to understand what the problem is, why he thinks surgery is necessary, what the other options are, and so on. I don't care if Phil Freakin Ivey himself tells me I should raise the flop - if he doesn't explain why, I'm going to ask. And if his reasoning doesn't make sense to me, I'm going to press him on it. Only when I'm convinced will I accept the advice.
donk4life told you why, don't be a ****ing idiot. It's fine to not just accept "oh everyone sucks at these limits" as an answer, but when the fact that people do suck at those limits gives them a wide enough stack-off range where you can get it in here (as was explained), maybe you should accept the advice!
Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a paraphrased version of the exchange:donk4life: He'd stack off with a wide rangejmbreslin: I don't think he would (along with a reason why)donk4life: It's $4.40, you're giving him too much creditThe problem is when someone disagrees with your advice, instead of engaging them and trying to make a convincing case for your point you just get annoyed with them for disagreeing. It's that "I'm better than you so just do what I say and don't argue" attitude that drives me insane. And unfortunately I see it often in the strat forums.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's rush poker so you have very little information. The only things you do know are that he limp called preflop and donk bet the flop in a micro stakes buy in tournament. Therefore his overall strategy/thinking behind the game is probably (almost certainly) very flawed. It's likely he has an incorrect/skewed interpretation of relative hand strengths and thinks 55, overpairs and maybe stuff like A5/22 and other crap are the nuts on this flop, partly just because they beat AK (Except for A5)If you call flop, call turn. You'll probably have to fold some rivers but calling down here inducing bluffs/value cuts can work nicely. To peel one and fold turn you should pick a way weaker hand to do it with. In terms of your range KK is way too high up in hand strength here.

Link to post
Share on other sites
It's rush poker so you have very little information. The only things you do know are that he limp called preflop and donk bet the flop in a micro stakes buy in tournament. Therefore his overall strategy/thinking behind the game is probably (almost certainly) very flawed. It's likely he has an incorrect/skewed interpretation of relative hand strengths and thinks 55, overpairs and maybe stuff like A5/22 and other crap are the nuts on this flop, partly just because they beat AK (Except for A5)If you call flop, call turn. You'll probably have to fold some rivers but calling down here inducing bluffs/value cuts can work nicely. To peel one and fold turn you should pick a way weaker hand to do it with. In terms of your range KK is way too high up in hand strength here.
I agree about his likely level of strategic thinking but even micro donks can become more careful and selective based on their stack size. I even agree that he could be donking a wide range; where I find myself disagreeing is how his range changes if I raise the flop and he pushes. Most of the responses here seem to suggest that his range doesn't change at all. I could be wrong but I have a hard time accepting that his stacking off range is the same as his donking range.Anyway, suppose I peel the turn too. What rivers are you folding? Obviously any heart. Would you fold to an Ace? A 2, 5 or 7?
Link to post
Share on other sites
Here's a paraphrased version of the exchange:donk4life: He'd stack off with a wide rangejmbreslin: I don't think he would (along with a reason why)donk4life: It's $4.40, you're giving him too much creditThe problem is when someone disagrees with your advice, instead of engaging them and trying to make a convincing case for your point you just get annoyed with them for disagreeing. It's that "I'm better than you so just do what I say and don't argue" attitude that drives me insane. And unfortunately I see it often in the strat forums.
I used to think the same thing sometimes, but then I got good and I became exactly the same way because I realise just how fucking retarded I was. The fact is it's super tilting when you give advice in a forum in a spot which does theoretically lower your edge in a game (by educating others) and then the guy asking for advice really doesn't want to improve and just wants to defend their own play/validation. And unfortunately I see it often in the strat forums.
Link to post
Share on other sites
You're right, you're one of the exceptions. Along with KT.If I raise the flop and he shoves, I'd probably narrow his range to sets, heart draws (including overcards), maybe hands like 55 (especially with a heart). I just don't see him committing his stack on this flop with weaker hands like 77-JJ or weak draws like gutters.
While I personally still think this range is too narrow...But if you only give him 33, 44, 55, 66 and AhXh then you have 38% equity. So you need to get about 1.63:1 to call. Since the question in my mind is "what do we do if we raise flop and he shoves", let's look at it.Preflop - Pot is 900He bets 600 on flop, making pot 1500. Let's say you raise to 1800. Pot is now 3300 and you have 8417 behind.If he shoves, pot is then 11717, so you have to call 8417 to win 11717. This means you're getting about 1.4:1.I guess technically we can fold in that spot if we think we have that solid a read on him. But I'm still not doing it.
Link to post
Share on other sites

pocket kings are a top 10 hand, i would get as many chips in on that flop as possible

Link to post
Share on other sites
While I personally still think this range is too narrow...But if you only give him 33, 44, 55, 66 and AhXh then you have 38% equity. So you need to get about 1.63:1 to call. Since the question in my mind is "what do we do if we raise flop and he shoves", let's look at it.Preflop - Pot is 900He bets 600 on flop, making pot 1500. Let's say you raise to 1800. Pot is now 3300 and you have 8417 behind.If he shoves, pot is then 11717, so you have to call 8417 to win 11717. This means you're getting about 1.4:1.I guess technically we can fold in that spot if we think we have that solid a read on him. But I'm still not doing it.
Helpful post, thanks.
Link to post
Share on other sites
I used to think the same thing sometimes, but then I got good and I became exactly the same way because I realise just how fucking retarded I was. The fact is it's super tilting when you give advice in a forum in a spot which does theoretically lower your edge in a game (by educating others) and then the guy asking for advice really doesn't want to improve and just wants to defend their own play/validation. And unfortunately I see it often in the strat forums.
I wouldn't bother posting hands for feedback if I felt I played the hand correctly. What gets interpreted by others as validation of my own play is in most cases just the way I challenge people's ideas as part of my learning process. Opinions don't convince me, reasons convince me. And sometimes I have to push people a bit to get at their reasons.
Link to post
Share on other sites
Actually, I don't think he's stacking off with such a wide range. This guy is the bigstack in the tourney and we're no longer in the very early stages where donks stack off lightly. I can't see him risking more than half his stack when he's in such a healthy position without a fairly solid made hand or at least a good made hand+draw combo. If I raise the flop and he shoves, I would have a very hard time believing I'm in good shape against his range.
This is your "reason" why you didn't agree with that range, and it's incredibly flawed. First off, people stack off light at ANY stage of most tourneys, especially a 4.40 rush poker tournament. The villain having a big stack means absolutely nothing in relation to how he's gonna stack off or his general skill level, because we have no other reads on him and he can easily (VERY easily) be a random tard who just likes to see lots of chips in the middle of the pot. Versus a random in a 4.40 rush tourney, donk4life's range is pretty much correct. It seems to me that you're leveling yourself far too much.
Link to post
Share on other sites

I like raising flop to 1800. If villian shoves I'm tanking and evaluating past hands. If he flats and bets out turn I'm doing the same.Not sure I'd ride all the way with the hand, but I really like 1800 on the flop to figure what's going on. At weak stakes, weak donk outs are so easily folded that it's a good profitable play here.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I like raising flop to 1800. If villian shoves I'm tanking and evaluating past hands. If he flats and bets out turn I'm doing the same.Not sure I'd ride all the way with the hand, but I really like 1800 on the flop to figure what's going on. At weak stakes, weak donk outs are so easily folded that it's a good profitable play here.
I don't think this sentence means what you think it means.
Link to post
Share on other sites
I like raising flop to 1800. If villian shoves I'm tanking and evaluating past hands. If he flats and bets out turn I'm doing the same.Not sure I'd ride all the way with the hand, but I really like 1800 on the flop to figure what's going on. At weak stakes, weak donk outs are so easily folded that it's a good profitable play here.
It's a Rush tourney, I don't have many (if any) past hands to evaluate. The thing is, if he's donking with a weak hand then raising to push him off his hand is not a +ev play. I'm better off calling and letting him fire again on the turn. But since it looks like a close decision even if he only shoves the tighter range I gave him, and an easier call if he's shoving a wider range, I've come around to seeing that raising the flop and calling a shove probably would have been the right play.I'm working on my mindset during these tournies, my biggest weakness by far is my willingness to put a healthy stack at risk in the middle stages. I've realized that constantly checking the tourney info (my position relative to how many players are left) affects my play in a negative way. What I need to do is focus on accumulating as many chips as possible no matter what my stack size and how many people are left until we get to the bubble where a bit of caution may be warranted. That doesn't mean I should play reckless up that point, but I shouldn't be backing off hands like this one because I don't want to put my top 5 stack at risk when there are still 40 left in the tourney.
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 5 weeks later...

I would've either made a 1k or 1.2k bet pre-flop considering one limper and late positioning, then bet twice the pot on the flop. He limped in, and you did just a bit more than the minimum, which with his stack would let him call a weak raise pre-flop.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...