Bad Floor Ruling?

[bbgun 0]

Playing 1-2 NL at the dog track...it's Florida so the max buy-in is $100. I had just moved to this table after a limit game I was playing in broke up.I'm UTG +1 with JsJh. UTG limps, I raise to $12, get called by two MP players, the SB and UTG. Flop is Jd2d5x, SB leads for $30, UTG folds, I think for about 30 seconds and declare "All-In" BEFORE I make any kind of motion with my chips. I put in a stack of 6 reds and then push the rest of my stack about 4-5 inches forward.I was in the 4-seat and the 7-seat tosses in 6 reds thinking I only called the $30 bet. The dealer immediately informs him that I am all-in and the 7-seat starts to pull his chips back...the dealer of course stops him and then calls for the floor. 7-seat says he never heard me declare all-in and claims that he did not see me slide the rest of my stack forward because the guy next to me had a cup holder with a large cup of coffee blocking his view. The dealer explains my exact action of declaring all-in before any chips were moved into the pot. I repeated this and said very little else.The floor proceeds to explain to the 7-seat that it is his responsibility to be aware of any action before him...and then lets him pull his bet back with a "warning" that next time the chips stay in. After the ruling, he eventually folds followed by the other MP player and the SB.I tried not to appear too anxious to get his chips declared in the pot and said very little other than explaining my actions to the floor. Is this simply a judgement call by the floor that could go either way or was I screwed?

[BaseJester 1]

The floor ruled correctly in my opinion.

Because the amount of a wager at big-bet poker has such a wide range, a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered may receive some protection by the decision-maker. A "call" or “raise” may be ruled not binding if it is obvious that the player grossly misunderstood the amount wagered, provided no damage has been caused by that action. Example: Player A bets $300, player B reraises to $1200, and Player C puts $300 into the pot and says, “call.” It is obvious that player C believes the bet to be only $300 and he should be allowed to withdraw his $300 and reconsider his wager. A bettor should not show down a hand until the amount put into the pot for a call seems reasonably correct, or it is obvious that the caller understands the amount wagered. The decision-maker is allowed considerable discretion in ruling on this type of situation. A possible rule-of-thumb is to disallow any claim of not understanding the amount wagered if the caller has put eighty percent or more of that amount into the pot.Example: On the end, a player puts a $500 chip into the pot and says softly, “Four hundred.” The opponent puts a $100 chip into the pot and says, “Call.” The bettor immediately shows the hand. The dealer says, “He bet four hundred.” The caller says, “Oh, I thought he bet a hundred.” In this case, the recommended ruling normally is that the bettor had an obligation to not show the hand when the amount put into the pot was obviously short, and the “call” can be retracted. Note that the character of each player can be a factor. (Unfortunately, situations can arise at big-bet poker that are not so clear-cut as this.)

[TrueAce13 18]

He shouldn't be allowed to pull his bet back, but I have seen this before once and didn't agree with it...so I guess casino dependent?

[spydur86 0]

No, you did your part. It's not right for him to claim ignorance of your bet because I'm sure there are ways that could be turned into angleshooting. At the very least his $30 should have held and if he didn't want to call off the rest of his stack he forfeit's $30 to the pot. You did all you could but unfortunately the floor makes all final decisions and if they make a habit of making bad calls I'd just avoid playing there if possible. If this is an isolated incident, just cut the floor a little slack because they do have a lot going on and a lot to watch, and it's hard to make decisions without seeing for yourself what happened. (I used to run floor/deal in a poker room). But yes, bad call on their part. Sorry you got screwed.

[I_fold08 1]

The floor ruled correctly in my opinion.

pretty sure you're wrong and this is not a subjective matter.bbgun was had

[BaseJester 1]

pretty sure you're wrong and this is not a subjective matter.bbgun was had

I quoted an actual rule. Do you have anything to back this up?

[I_fold08 1]

I quoted an actual rule. Do you have anything to back this up?

chips in the middle stay in the middle

[BaseJester 1]

chips in the middle stay in the middle

That doesn't really count as a citation.I think this ruling flows straight-forwardly from the "don't be an *******" principle. You wouldn't insist on taking the $30 from a friend, would you?

[spydur86 0]

That doesn't really count as a citation.I think this ruling flows straight-forwardly from the "don't be an *******" principle. You wouldn't insist on taking the $30 from a friend, would you?

No, but I'd insist on taking the $30 from some dumbass who's not paying attention to a hand he's clearly involved in.

[I_fold08 1]

That doesn't really count as a citation.I think this ruling flows straight-forwardly from the "don't be an *******" principle. You wouldn't insist on taking the $30 from a friend, would you?

I don't have friends

[Lrgetrout 1]

You wouldn't insist on taking the $30 from a friend, would you?

There are no friends at the poker table.

[BaseJester 1]

There are no friends at the poker table.

I think this a life -EV attitude. If you want to play a game with "Ha, ha, gotcha!" moments, I suggest low stakes Simon Says.

[GOCUBSGO 77]

I think this a life -EV attitude. If you want to play a game with "Ha, ha, gotcha!" moments, I suggest low stakes Simon Says.

sorry basejester, but you are just an idiot if you don't think he got screwed. He should have lost the $30. The rule you stated is definitely not how it works at my local casino. If you have a question regarding the bet size or action, you speak up. Once you put your chips in the middle, they stay there. Period. End of Story./ thread

[lurbz 2]

I think this a life -EV attitude. If you want to play a game with "Ha, ha, gotcha!" moments, I suggest low stakes Simon Says.

?There aren't friends at the table. If there are, that's called softplay and collusion and you become a more hideous person than the one who simply expects people to pay attention.

[BaseJester 1]

sorry basejester, but you are just an idiot if you don't think he got screwed. He should have lost the $30. The rule you stated is definitely not how it works at my local casino. If you have a question regarding the bet size or action, you speak up. Once you put your chips in the middle, they stay there. Period. End of Story./ thread

Poker rules are not universal, but if you press for a rulebook, you will often find Robert's Rules or something very similar. For instance, the WSOP or the Mirage.Does your local casino have a written rulebook? You might ask.

[BaseJester 1]

?There aren't friends at the table. If there are, that's called softplay and collusion and you become a more hideous person than the one who simply expects people to pay attention.

Don't conflate competitor with enemy.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

I think this a life -EV attitude. If you want to play a game with "Ha, ha, gotcha!" moments, I suggest low stakes Simon Says.

Don't conflate competitor with enemy.

These statements are really really true.Some of my best friends to this day are people who I met at the poker table competing with and trying to take their money in the game but becoming good friends away from it.It might be a generational difference in attitude showing or just the fact that a live casino is a much more social thing and you might see the same people day after day and it makes everything better when you get along with and like the people you're playing with.

[CrookedLink 0]

meh, this would have probably been ruled the same way at my local poker room.then again my local poker room is run by idiots, so take that for what it's worth.

[spydur86 0]

These statements are really really true.Some of my best friends to this day are people who I met at the poker table competing with and trying to take their money in the game but becoming good friends away from it.It might be a generational difference in attitude showing or just the fact that a live casino is a much more social thing and you might see the same people day after day and it makes everything better when you get along with and like the people you're playing with.

I'll give you that, but that makes this entire thing situational. Is this someone who you do actually play with a lot, or a random at the table? Is it someone who's play you respect or a complete donk who you'd love nothing more than to bust? Has he made mistakes like this in the past or do you think he's being genuine about it? I'm still in the "it could easily be used to angle shoot" if this were to be allowed. Obviously you toss in what you "think" someone bets, wait for their reaction and if it's unfavorable for you cry wolf about how you didn't realize he put the rest of his chips in and want to take your bet back.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

I'll give you that, but that makes this entire thing situational. Is this someone who you do actually play with a lot, or a random at the table? Is it someone who's play you respect or a complete donk who you'd love nothing more than to bust? Has he made mistakes like this in the past or do you think he's being genuine about it? I'm still in the "it could easily be used to angle shoot" if this were to be allowed. Obviously you toss in what you "think" someone bets, wait for their reaction and if it's unfavorable for you cry wolf about how you didn't realize he put the rest of his chips in and want to take your bet back.

My comment really wasn't directed at this specific situation, more as a general attitude to have at a live poker table. In this situation I agree that the best decision for the floor to make is to make the $30 stay in the pot and give the other player the chance to fold and leave the money in or call the allin. If the floor ruled against me though I wouldn't make a big stink about it and if I felt strongly I would probably talk to the floor and manager away from the table later on.

[spydur86 0]

My comment really wasn't directed at this specific situation, more as a general attitude to have at a live poker table. In this situation I agree that the best decision for the floor to make is to make the $30 stay in the pot and give the other player the chance to fold and leave the money in or call the allin. If the floor ruled against me though I wouldn't make a big stink about it and if I felt strongly I would probably talk to the floor and manager away from the table later on.

Ah, well yeah, specific situation aside I do agree that poker should be a "friendly" competition.

[wildspoke 2]

chips in the middle stay in the middle

I've seen a similar situation. A player declared all-in but first moved only his 'smaller chips' forward. A player behind thought it was a call. After he heard that the player was all in, he wanted to take his chips back b/c he didn't hear the all-in declaration. An 'heated discussion' occurred and the floor was called over. The player who called was allowed to take back his bet because the first player had not moved a majority of 'larger' chips into play. So I could see why the floor ruled the way that it did. ----

[spydur86 0]

I've seen a similar situation. A player declared all-in but first moved only his 'smaller chips' forward. A player behind thought it was a call. After he heard that the player was all in, he wanted to take his chips back b/c he didn't hear the all-in declaration. An 'heated discussion' occurred and the floor was called over. The player who called was allowed to take back his bet because the first player had not moved a majority of 'larger' chips into play. So I could see why the floor ruled the way that it did. ----

Except for if they're going to have a "verbal is binding" rule and the action occurred after the verbal "All-In" they're kind of negating a pretty steadfast rule. Meh.

[qyayqi 11]

why did you put in a stack of 6-8 reds before pushing the rest forward only a couple inches?

[sipmoeezy 0]

you werent screwed.It was nice of you to just say what you did and nothing else though.