10nl Rush: Standard 3-bet, Fold?

[jmbreslin 0]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB ($11.60)Hero (UTG) ($9.85)UTG+1 ($11.79)MP1 ($13.71)MP2 ($9.90)MP3 ($16.36)CO ($10.51)Button ($11.43)SB ($1.65)Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, AHero bets $0.40, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.40, 5 foldsFlop: ($0.95) Q, 2, 3(2 players)Hero bets $0.60, MP2 raises to $1.20, Hero raises to $2.80, MP2 raises to $9.50 (All-In), Hero foldsTotal pot: $6.55 | Rake: $0.43

[Stupidhead 2]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB ($11.60)Hero (UTG) ($9.85)UTG+1 ($11.79)MP1 ($13.71)MP2 ($9.90)MP3 ($16.36)CO ($10.51)Button ($11.43)SB ($1.65)Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, AHero bets $0.40, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.40, 5 foldsFlop: ($0.95) Q, 2, 3(2 players)Hero bets $0.60, MP2 raises to $1.20, Hero raises to $2.80, MP2 raises to $9.50 (All-In), Hero foldsTotal pot: $6.55 | Rake: $0.43

3betting is really bad if we're not going to call a shove. Only 22 and 33 beat us here. I'd get it in.

[Ninja Ace 1]

nasty spot bc minraises mean different things from different bad players... and since this is rush, no clue what type of bad player this is LOL.But basically you can narrow down his range to some bs like a mid pocket pair or weak queen that wants cheap streets, AA, or a set. When you decide to take this 3-bet/fold line you're turning your hand into a bluff bc there's 0 value to gain from the bet vs a range like this.I dunno how i'd handle this TBH

[trystero 0]

yea you can't 3bet/fold this flop....I probably just flat his minraise and re-eval, like if the turn pairs any card I try to c/r ai

[mtdesmoines 3]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB ($11.60)Hero (UTG) ($9.85)UTG+1 ($11.79)MP1 ($13.71)MP2 ($9.90)MP3 ($16.36)CO ($10.51)Button ($11.43)SB ($1.65)Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, AHero bets $0.40, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.40, 5 foldsFlop: ($0.95) Q, 2, 3(2 players)Hero bets $0.60, MP2 raises to $1.20, Hero raises to $2.80, MP2 raises to $9.50 (All-In), Hero foldsTotal pot: $6.55 | Rake: $0.43

villain's play here is not easily explained. i think we're even $ long term no matter if we fold or call

[trystero 0]

also, there's no such thing as a "Standard 3-bet, fold" postflop. You took a nice hand, TPTK, and turned it into a bluff. there are times to do this, but it's usually on the river when you're against someone who can fold a hand, and you don't expect one pair to take the pot down at showdown. You definitely don't do it on the flop. Times I can see myself 3bet folding otf "for value"......none actually. I tried to think of an example and came up empty. if I 3-bet with a big pair then my non-mouse hand is locked and loaded for a fistpump.

[jmbreslin 0]

I think I might have been, dare I say, raising for information. I figured if I 3-bet and he shoved, he likely had me beat. Nevertheless, this was actually a very unusual line for me to take in a hand. I don't think I've ever 3-bet/folded before.But this situation seems to be very common at these stakes and I never quite know how to respond. I raise, CB OOP with an overpair or TPTK, and get raised (often a minraise). His range is fairly wide here, so I struggle with the best way to respond. In this hand I decided to try testing the strength of his hand with a 3-bet. Usually I'll call and go into check-call mode, trying to get to showdown cheaply. I also don't know if that's the right way to play it.I will say that calling and then check-raising all in on the turn is a move that is not in my arsenal yet. With that move you're assuming you're ahead of his range, so it's a big risk, no? In this hand villain could have AA/KK (this is 10NL remember) and 22/33 just as easily as he could have JJ/TT/KQ etc.

[rrumsey 0]

i call and lose man, kinda smells like a set, but 22 and 33 seem so unlikely, he could have a medium K kinda hand

[SwolyswoND 1]

This is why raising for information is so bad. Did you even learn any information with the 3bet? Not really..if he has Axss he will still get it in, if he has a set he will still get it in. If he has a PP under the Q, he folds...so I guess you gain the info there that you successfully let the weaker hand out cheap.

[Ninja Ace 1]

if you want to pay for information txt KGB

[KingJames 11]

if you want to pay for information txt KGB

hof

[CobaltBlue 662]

I don't quite agree that villain has to have a set or overpair. He can easily have QT or a flush draw, so I think our 3-bet can be for value. That said...yeah...can't fold after we do it.

[trystero 0]

I think I might have been, dare I say, raising for information. I figured if I 3-bet and he shoved, he likely had me beat. Nevertheless, this was actually a very unusual line for me to take in a hand. I don't think I've ever 3-bet/folded before.But this situation seems to be very common at these stakes and I never quite know how to respond. I raise, CB OOP with an overpair or TPTK, and get raised (often a minraise). His range is fairly wide here, so I struggle with the best way to respond. In this hand I decided to try testing the strength of his hand with a 3-bet. Usually I'll call and go into check-call mode, trying to get to showdown cheaply. I also don't know if that's the right way to play it.I will say that calling and then check-raising all in on the turn is a move that is not in my arsenal yet. With that move you're assuming you're ahead of his range, so it's a big risk, no? In this hand villain could have AA/KK (this is 10NL remember) and 22/33 just as easily as he could have JJ/TT/KQ etc.

You're trying to maximize value against his entire range. Now if you get it all in on this flop, and he has say sets/bigdraws/bluffs/overpairs/KQ/QJ, then your equity doesn't come out looking great (I don't have PStove at work so...can't calculate it). I'm OK w/getting it in on this board against some random 10nl Rusher, but I'd call his minraise and re-evaluate on the turn. What that means...depends on the turn card. If the board pairs then of course we want to either bet/call or c/r all-in. If a 2 or 3 comes out then it's less likely that he's holding a set (now only 4 possible combos), and a queen means we're now ahead of overpairs and it increases the likelihood that he'll felt his own (dominated) queen. It also means that your equity's increased against big draws. If say the board comes a spade, like the Ks, then you can consider folding to a large bet because now you're drawing dead to his sets and his flushes, and you're now behind one of the hands you were hoping to extract value from in the first place: KQ. imo don't just go into c/c showdown pray mode. See what he does on different turn cards and move on from there. Like if you checked and he checked through, then he's potcontrolling a pair or he's got a draw himself. Now what to do in that spot depends on the player. Since it's Rush, meh, c/cing and bet/folding(or calling, depends on exact river card) are both fine on blank rivers.I'm aware of course that competent players will see that your call indicates at least top pair, and they won't give you the opportunity to c/r on the turn...so they'll check behind and try to hit. I'm talking about aggro10nltards really.edit: at 10nl you can gladly 3-bet/call w/overpairs. You don't want to get in a habit of doing that at higher stakes on some boards just because many straightforward regs won't overplay hands like top pair without history (lots of qualifiers but hey, that's poker). That doesn't apply to 10nl. Here's where forums have done a disservice to actually playing poker. When you flat a minraise with AA on a Q73r board, then you're thinking at a "higher level." You're thinking, "He wouldn't do this with KQ/QJ, and since the board is dry it has to be a bluff or a set, so I will just call and extract max value." Not at 10nl. At 10nl you should know that the fish, and many of the "regs," will gladly c/r/call w/hands as weak as QT/QJ there...

[jmbreslin 0]

Good post, thanks trystero.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I think put another way, flatting here stimulates calldowns on three streets from a range like KQ JQ QT JJ TT 99 etc. Raising gets us repopped and lost.

[rrumsey 0]

I think put another way, flatting here stimulates calldowns on three streets from a range like KQ JQ QT JJ TT 99 etc. Raising gets us repopped and lost.

i hear yah, but i have seen some crazy sshhiittee in rush. villain could have a ton of things here. If you flat this flop, your c/r all in on blank turns right?i am lazy but i think it would work, about 3 in the pot, see a check bet for like 1.50-2.00, pot is about 5 with about 6 left in stack, yah i probably do that on blank turns

[mtdesmoines 3]

i hear yah, but i have seen some crazy sshhiittee in rush. villain could have a ton of things here. If you flat this flop, your c/r all in on blank turns right?i am lazy but i think it would work, about 3 in the pot, see a check bet for like 1.50-2.00, pot is about 5 with about 6 left in stack, yah i probably do that on blank turns

No. I said calldowns. That means three streets of value. Getting it AI should be the goal of every hand even tho we are playing NL.