Townsend Admits Violation Of Tilt T&c

[king_tanner 84]

Sounds like the Corporation vs Andy Beal a bit huh?

There was a couple days where it seemed like just Townsend, South, and Hastings were playing him. Even before all this came out it really looked like it was Team Cardrunners vs. Isildur.

[rawkodd 0]

second time townsend has admitted to wrongdoings and he calls out his own punishment... sick of it

[Big Jono 0]

Sounds like the Corporation vs Andy Beal a bit huh?

Yea except for in the Andy Beal match both sides knew all the facts about who they were playing against, that doesnt sound like the case in this one.

[Suited_Up 2]

Yea except for in the Andy Beal match both sides knew all the facts about who they were playing against, that doesnt sound like the case in this one.

Sharing info is sharing info. Not that big of a deal imo.

[Big Jono 0]

Sharing info is sharing info. Not that big of a deal imo.

Cheating is cheating, in the forum they chose to play Isildur on the rules clearly state this is cheating.If you make the assumption as I do that they backed him aswell, it turns into team play imo. There is no evidence but I wouldnt be surprised if there wasnt an element of ghosting going on too.

[MaxStPolish 4]

Until townsend and co. pull this shit on me at .05/.10 PLO, I just can't get too riled up about it :)There's a bevy of sub-issues that surround this situation that are all over the fringe of online play ethical boundaries. As technology evolves, it'll only get worse. I love the ridic position FTP is put in here though. They have a rule in place about sharing of hand databases....a player openly admits to violating it....but they can't make financial restitution to Isildur, because this would set a precedent for god knows how many future situations like this. I'm curious how they will play this compared to other situations where cheating is found and monies are confiscated/returned/etc.

[dabetka 0]

Cheating is cheating, in the forum they chose to play Isildur on the rules clearly state this is cheating.If you make the assumption as I do that they backed him aswell, it turns into team play imo. There is no evidence but I wouldnt be surprised if there wasnt an element of ghosting going on too.

I'm pretty sure Isildur knew they were studying his play together, if not, he was the only one in the world of online poker that didn't. FFS, half the time he was playing hu, it was against one of the CR boys. In their own blogs, they talk about how much they study their opponents play. I remember reading Townsends back when he was constantly playing Gordo. His whole damn blog would be about studying his play/tendancies. I mean jeezus, it doesn't take a genius to realize this goes on with all the different tracking devices. I would venture to guess that he isn't the first opponent they have shared notes on either??? I think Isildur just thought he might have a chance at getting some of his $$$ back and thought it was worth a shot.

[PokerMiz 0]

At the risk of asking, how is this any different than Negreanu (or any other pro) blogging about particular hands in a tourney and how the play went down? Does that not provide inside information about how a player plays in any given point in the game? We are told who it was, how deep they were, stack sizes, the hand, how it played out....you can deduce a lot from just that type of information about a player...

[nutzbuster 7]

I don't see how this is any different from posting hands in a strategy forum and asking for advice.

this.And this is the potential problem with online play. You leave a footprint of play in a data base, Data that can then be manipulated into an advantage, as opposed to live play where this type of hand history data is much harder if not impossible to attain.My point is, online play is all good and well, but when someone does this there should be no repercussions imo. It is too grey of an area. It's no different if during an online tournament you had 2 or three ringers in the room with you coaching every step of the way. There are many other examples along these lines.It's open warfare out there and anything in this vein is fair game and people should not be surprised when shit like this happens.It's the online poker world we live in. Suck it up!

[dabetka 0]

Isildur's pokernews interview:http://www.pokernews.com/news/2009/12/poke...illion-7714.htm"Isildur1" has been silent and anonymous since he broke into the high-stakes games on Full Tilt Poker back in October. Since then, he has been on a wild ride, filled with million-dollar swings that saw both the largest online poker hand ever played, as well as the biggest online poker win during a single session, achieved by Brian Hastings.Just two weeks ago, Hastings won over $4 million from Isildur1 in a session that is now being scrutinized because it has been discovered that Hastings obtained advice on hands from a database of hand histories collected by Brian Townsend. Such colluding, conspiring or whatever you want to call it is a violation of the Full Tilt Poker Terms of Service.Advertisement Through a series of sources, PokerNews tracked down Isildur1, who agreed for the first time to go on record about the session with Brian Hastings. He has not however, revealed his identity, nor does he plan to do so in the near future. While this interview only discusses the session against Hastings, Isildur1 has promised to give PokerNews more time in the coming week to discuss his ride on the high-stakes roller coaster.There has been a lot of controversy regarding your match versus Brian Hastings. Were you aware before reading it on ESPN that Hastings had been able to study hand histories from matches you had played with others?I had no clue about this, as I don't follow the forums or many poker sites. I had no idea. A few poker friends told me about it, and then I finally decided to see for myself and read it on the site.Had you played Brian Hastings prior to the $4 million session?I had played him before at no-limit hold'em, as well as a little pot-limit Omaha, so this was not the first time we played together; however, we also did not play very much.We're sure you've thought back on the losing session quite a bit. Was there anything that was strange about the session when you look back?In the days leading up to the session with Hastings, I played with Brian Townsend and Cole South a lot. They were always waiting for me. The last session where Hastings won all the money, it just felt like something was wrong. Everything that could go wrong for me did. Every time I tried to pull off a bluff of some kind, it felt as if it was being picked off. At the time, I just thought it was crazy luck, but now, knowing they shared a lot of their analysis of hand histories with each other, it makes a lot more sense. I feel like Hastings, and even South and Townsend when we played the last few times, had an advantage over me.Since the session, have you had any conversations with Brian Hastings?No, nothing.Have you reached out to Full Tilt Poker at all?Not at this time, no I have not.Were you aware of the Full Tilt rule that states: "The use of shared hand histories provides detailed information on opponents a player has little or no personal experience playing against, and is deemed to be an unfair advantage. Violating this policy is subject to the maximum penalties for prohibited software use?"I was not aware of the exact rule that you just mentioned, but since seeing that it is in fact a rule at Full Tilt Poker, I think I am going to put through a formal complaint, as I think this is a case where the sharing of hand histories directly affected the match I played with Brian (Hastings).Now that Brian Townsend has come out in his blog and admitted to compiling a database of about 50,000 hands he and others played against you to analyze your play, do you feel like you deserve to get a portion or all of your money back from the session?Yes, I do feel like I deserve to get something back. I feel that Hastings had a big edge over me due to the hand history database. They were able to dissect the exact way I was playing because they analyzed the hands so precisely, and it was impossible for me to adjust, as I had no idea they were doing it.Even though this information is not out there, since they admitted to sharing hand histories, how can I be sure that all three of them did not have input on the hands while we were playing?Have you ever discussed hand histories with friends, or peers about any of the players you played in the big games on Full Tilt, or against any opponent for that matter?I have never in my life studied hand histories. I have never studied books, or watched videos. I always have just played poker and played with every player who wanted to play me. To be honest, I never even studied my own hand histories.What's next for Isildur1? Do you plan on getting back into the action?Well, honestly I am going to stay quiet for a while now. I am planning on putting in the request to Full Tilt to look into this further, and until I hear back, I don't plan on playing much poker on the site.Thank you Isildur1, we look forward to talking with your more in the coming days about some of your experiences playing in the biggest online poker games in the world.---As noted in my previous article, PokerNews has reached out to the members of CardRunners. At this point, we were told by a CardRunners representative there will be no statement or interviews at this time. In addition to bringing you an additional interview with Isildur1 in the coming days, we will also update this situation as information comes to us and I will have information in my blog about the interview process.

[goldie79 0]

What about Isildur, how do we know he hasn't received info/advice from other players regarding Dwan or Antonius or other opponents?Nevermind.

[PokerMiz 0]

this.And this is the potential problem with online play. You leave a footprint of play in a data base, Data that can then be manipulated into an advantage, as opposed to live play where this type of hand history data is much harder if not impossible to attain.My point is, online play is all good and well, but when someone does this there should be no repercussions imo. It is too grey of an area. It's no different if during an online tournament you had 2 or three ringers in the room with you coaching every step of the way. There are many other examples along these lines.It's open warfare out there and anything in this vein is fair game and people should not be surprised when shit like this happens.It's the online poker world we live in. Suck it up!

I just don't think it's online poker.....you live in a day/age where even televised poker now shows hands and all you have to do is record/playback/learn/discuss hands.... So much information is already out there whether you share it or not.

[bdc30 0]

I have never in my life studied hand histories. I have never studied books, or watched videos. I always have just played poker and played with every player who wanted to play me. To be honest, I never even studied my own hand histories.

Come on. There's no possible way this can be true.I call bullshit on all sides of this stupid story.

[wildspoke 2]

Oops wrong topic.I find it highly suspect that Isildur1 does not study hand history of other players. I would not be suprised if this is exactly what he did against Dwan. If you replaced Dwan's name with Isildur1 you'd have basically the same in losses. Everyone looks over hand history. With of course Ivey being the execption. The only thing was Townsend opened up his mouth and spoke out of turn. When it comes to money the best advice is the clam up.

[Royal_Tour 0]

if its against T&C then i guess its 'cheating' and there should be a penalty..but i believe this happens alllll the time even in tournaments. If someone goes deep in a tourney its very common for a buddy to give any info he has on the table to his friend. "dutchslugger min raises alot pre and makes few mistakes post flop" or even live tourneys gong up to a buddy and seeing a familar face at his table "hey i played with that guy 3 hours yesterday he 4xs all his big hands and is capable of 3barreling his stack off with air" ..I mean this isnt as in dept as the research and work put into the HHs they shared but is this not the exact same thing? Is this 'wrong' as well?

Its big time cheating. Not even close to your example. The problem is, because its "do-able" people just feel its a form a strat

To me this is massively different than what they've admitted to. It's one thing to share rather anecdotal evidence from a couple of times you've played the guy (really, is it any different than yelling at a football game to watch a safety blitz??), but to share hand histories and analyses imo is a complete new level.The other issue here is that this was done specifically to take money from one other play or "beat" someone, rather than to 1. train to get better and/or 2. find out a little more about a players' tendencies. Given the circumstances of Isildur's rush and hand volume in the given period of time, to me this is akin to a HU tourney where each player Isildur beats shares his HH and opinions with the next guy, just so SOMEONE can knock him off. BS.

This /\

I don't see how this is any different from posting hands in a strategy forum and asking for advice.

this.

are you guys serious??? LOL its sooo different. first. we're talking a couple hands vs 50,000. second. You normally leave out the name of villains in strat. Its to discuss strategy. Not how to Beat 1 particular player.This is gross.This is a big step in the wrong direction for online poker.

[Royal_Tour 0]

I find it highly suspect that Isildur1 does not study hand history of other players. I would not be suprised if this is exactly what he did against Dwan. If you replaced Dwan's name with Isildur1 you'd have basically the same in losses. Everyone looks over hand history. With of course Ivey being the execption. The only thing was Townsend opened up his mouth and spoke out of turn. When it comes to money the best advice is the clam up.

wow. you really dont understand the issue,its not the studying of hands thats the problem. Its the teaming up information that wouldnt otherwise be accessible to them unless they broke the rules.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Sounds like the Corporation vs Andy Beal a bit huh?

Andy Beal faced them all face to face. and knew what was going on. Infact, he wanted them to pool their money because he felt it was to his advantage to play at extremely high stakes

[pezeveng 207]

So if sharing info is against the rules, coaching would also be against the rules.Lets say someone is coaching and notices one of the players on the same table as the student and says okay this guy is known to do this or that. Same difference but how do you prove that someone is being coached in a tourney. Rules that can't be enforced are bs.

[Royal_Tour 0]

So if sharing info is against the rules, coaching would also be against the rules.Lets say someone is coaching and notices one of the players on the same table as the student and says okay this guy is known to do this or that. Same difference but how do you prove that someone is being coached in a tourney. Rules that can't be enforced are bs.

dude. apples and oranges.An example of how these differ would be, coaching"Jaime is a good player. he is aggro, and i've seen him call down light. Be careful, and pick your spots.. As advice. is totally OK."for this issue its"We have 50k hands on how Jaime plays vs 2 different players. Lets take some time to pin point exactly where his weakness is, and you can look at these hands for yourself and ask yourself how you might have played it.Oh yea. 1 more thing... we're going to back you a bunch of money so we can really stick it to this guy.wait.. another thing, we're going to give you advice on every hand.did i say 1 more thing? I meant another... Here is a detailed report i made about his thought process..good luck.

[pezeveng 207]

dude. apples and oranges.An example of how these differ would be, coaching"Jaime is a good player. he is aggro, and i've seen him call down light. Be careful, and pick your spots.. As advice. is totally OK."for this issue its"We have 50k hands on how Jaime plays vs 2 different players. Lets take some time to pin point exactly where his weakness is, and you can look at these hands for yourself and ask yourself how you might have played it.Oh yea. 1 more thing... we're going to back you a bunch of money so we can really stick it to this guy.wait.. another thing, we're going to give you advice on every hand.did i say 1 more thing? I meant another... Here is a detailed report i made about his thought process...

Maybe some coaches share this info. Not that I would know but it is possible, especially a coach that gets a share of students winnings. I hear what you saying about apples to oranges they are 2 different things my basic argument is its a difficult rule to enforce so why bother with it.

[dabetka 0]

One of the pokernews comments:"Am I the only one who questions whether this was actually the real Isildur1? Without his identity, I could have written all of his supposed answers to these interview questions."This is actually a pretty good point imo. If he hasn't admitted who he is yet, how do they know they found the real isildur?

[bdc30 0]

Wow we've lit a fire under RoyalTour here...I haven't seen him post this much since the fcp weekend stuff.Any chance RT=Isil??? lol

[CaneBrain 95]

You cannot enforce this rule (unless someone says something in an interview, doh!) therefore it is stupid to even have the rule.I agree with Royal Tour that this seems unfair but then again it is basically enforced by the honor system which is a joke when millions are at stake. This is just the price you potentially pay when you play online poker.However, since they admitted to it and it is against the rules, FTP should probably make them give half the money back or something.

[nutzbuster 7]

Its big time cheating. Not even close to your example. The problem is, because its "do-able" people just feel its a form a stratThis /\are you guys serious??? LOL its sooo different. first. we're talking a couple hands vs 50,000. second. You normally leave out the name of villains in strat. Its to discuss strategy. Not how to Beat 1 particular player.This is gross.This is a big step in the wrong direction for online poker.

Agree it's gross. And I'm not slamming online poker in anyway. It just seems to me that online players should not be surprised or outraged when this kind of shit goes down. There seems to be a lot of shady crap happening lately. And there is all kinds of borderline cheating and full blown cheating that goes on, both live and online (although online seems much more sophisticated, easy to hide).I have no idea what a solution would be, or how to stop this/police it. The sites seem to do all they can (to a fault sometimes). It just cracks me up how when stuff like this happens or gets exposed people freak out. Can you imagine all the crap going on that hasn't been discovered yet? It's a Lions den...don't cry if you get bit.

[Royal_Tour 0]

I have no idea what a solution would be, or how to stop this/police it. The sites seem to do all they can (to a fault sometimes). It just cracks me up how when stuff like this happens or gets exposed people freak out. Can you imagine all the crap going on that hasn't been discovered yet? It's a Lions den...don't cry if you get bit.

Hmm.. I'm not sure people are "freaking out" over it happening. Because, It does happen. Its one main reason why i feel more comfortable playing live. I hate knowing someone has PT stats on me.I am disgusted by it because of the people who did it. Card runner founders, top name pro's Guys you see on TV and in magazines going on and on about how they started from nothing, turning their lives into fantasy, only for them to come into the spotlight again because they do things like this.You know, it sucks for isildur, and anyone else who play solo and get burned by teams, but whatever. But its just gross when its guys like CardRunner Pro's doing it.