BeaverStyle 1 Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Only hand I've seen villain play is this:Villain is mike99210PokerStars Game #31590030640: Tournament #186967692, $4.00+$0.40 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2009/08/13 15:18:14 ETTable '186967692 5' 9-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: bremse+28 (4470 in chips) Seat 2: Beaverstyle (3870 in chips) Seat 3: mike92110 (1630 in chips) Seat 4: Gouvyz (1410 in chips) Seat 5: Avatar1979 (1360 in chips) Seat 6: chaves7777 (910 in chips) Seat 7: konsul77 (1950 in chips) Seat 8: Yang2110 (3515 in chips) Seat 9: annaar (845 in chips) Beaverstyle: posts small blind 15mike92110: posts big blind 30*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Beaverstyle [7s Qs]Gouvyz: folds Avatar1979: folds chaves7777: raises 880 to 910 and is all-inkonsul77: folds Yang2110: folds annaar: folds bremse+28: folds Beaverstyle: folds mike92110: calls 880*** FLOP *** [Td 2h As]*** TURN *** [Td 2h As] [4d]*** RIVER *** [Td 2h As 4d] [Jh]*** SHOW DOWN ***mike92110: shows [Qh Ac] (a pair of Aces)chaves7777: shows [Ah 5h] (a pair of Aces - lower kicker)mike92110 collected 1835 from potHand in question:PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 4.4 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB (t4290)Hero (UTG) (t3870)UTG+1 (t2525)MP1 (t575)MP2 (t2630)MP3 (t1270)CO (t1215)Button (t3470)SB (t1445)Hero's M: 86.00Preflop: Hero is UTG with J , J Hero bets t80, UTG+1 calls t80, 6 folds, BB calls t50Flop: (t255) 2 , 10 , 4 (3 players)BB checks, Hero bets t180, UTG+1 raises to t450, 1 fold, Hero ???My thoughts:1. Raise to 1100, call a push2. Flat the raise, c/r all in on 3. Flat the raise, lead for 3/4 pot on turn4. Soul read and fold to his QQ+What's your play? Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I'd flat and On a "harmless" board, I'd probe bet 1/3 pot. If flat called, I'd check shove the turn unless it's dangerous. If raised, I'd fold.On a board with a A, K or Q, I'd check and see what amount villain betsIf villain checks, I'd probe on the turnIf villain bets, more options open dependant on the bet size1/3 pot...min reraise1/2 pot flat2/3 - more, probably fold if no read Link to post Share on other sites
TrueAce13 18 Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I'm raising and hoping to get it in here. You have a pair, and its over all the cards on the board. I bet until I can't bet anymore. But, isap Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I'm raising and hoping to get it in here. You have a pair, and its over all the cards on the board. I bet until I can't bet anymore. But, isapWhile I certainly think shoving is a good option, my "play" is based on pot control, at least in part. On the other hand, my way might be perceived as weak and, therefore, susceptible to a bluff, but it's a risk I'll take, rather than pushing all my chips in PF. I'd prefer to see some texture and calling another 270 isn't going to kill me, although it is a mini-spew.I also think any re-raise is going to get re-raised again, so if you're going to raise, might as well shove. Link to post Share on other sites
tarbutton13 0 Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 In this spot I'd go with option 1. We don't have a bunch of history with the villain, but I would think he would 3-bet preflop with QQ+. If he has you bet, I would expect more in the range of a set rather than an overpair. If you can get it in here, you will be ahead more times than not. I'd expect to see hands like A10, K10, Q10. The board also looks pretty smallish, so the villain could be thinking you are cbetting with a hand that missed and is making a play.IMO you raise and watch him flip A10....take it down. Link to post Share on other sites
XXEddie 0 Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I would flat and get ready to c/shove any non-T, Q, K or A turn card.Then break your mouse when he tables ATdd and binks the As on the river... Link to post Share on other sites
cdipierr 0 Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Honestly, shove over his raise and it's not even close in my opinion. The play at $4.40s is terrible. You'll get snap called by pretty much any T. Then try to hold on. Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Honestly, shove over his raise and it's not even close in my opinion. The play at $4.40s is terrible. You'll get snap called by pretty much any T. Then try to hold on.Pretty much Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Prob Shove and get snapped by 66There's about 900 in the pot? I'm very happy to shove 3 pots effective (i think it is) in this spot. Link to post Share on other sites
BeaverStyle 1 Posted August 14, 2009 Author Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hero calls flop. Turn... (I can't remember) is some card that is lower than a 10 that doesn't pair the board. Hero checks, Villain shoves. Fist-pump snap-call, yeah? Link to post Share on other sites
cdipierr 0 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hero calls flop. Turn... (I can't remember) is some card that is lower than a 10 that doesn't pair the board. Hero checks, Villain shoves. Fist-pump snap-call, yeah?Yes.Sorry you got beat by some set or donk-played QQ, but it's still a call. Link to post Share on other sites
TrueAce13 18 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hero calls flop. Turn... (I can't remember) is some card that is lower than a 10 that doesn't pair the board. Hero checks, Villain shoves. Fist-pump snap-call, yeah?If you feel like being mean, you could slowroll a little, but it is a marginal situation for that Link to post Share on other sites
BeaverStyle 1 Posted August 14, 2009 Author Share Posted August 14, 2009 Ok, I posted this hand to kind of show the huge difference in play in $4.40's and higher buy-in tourneys.... and slightly to vent on my bad fortune.No antes, low blinds, deep stacked... Normally under these conditions, you would expect players to play their hands with a sort of "straightforwardness." Given that, one can assume that villain in this hand has only sets, K10, A10, JJ+. However, this is a $4.40. No standard rule applies. Players are realistically "retarded" when it comes to their poker strategy.Villain in this hand flipped AQo and rivered an A. Yes, hidden BB post... DIAGF.I really considered folding the turn... I think in any mid-level buy-in MTT against a competent player, it would have been a viable option. Then I thought "I has a pair" and just clicked buttons.Moral of this story: Don't fold overpairs in $4.40s. People tend to go ape-shit bonkers with air. Link to post Share on other sites
cdipierr 0 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Like I said, $4.40 players are terrible.But, even in a higher stakes tournament, it's hard to get away from this w/o any reads. It's possible a "better" player has a set more often here, because people tend to push sets on the turn, but given that your line looks like a c-bet on the flop and a give up on the turn, they're probably going to turn up with AT, and maybe a flush draw to go with it (you didn't mention suit of the turn card). But really sets are the only thing we're worrying about because there's no viable 2-pair and QQ+ would have reraised you pre. But would a good player with a set try to shove you out of the pot on the turn? I'm pretty sure if I check the turn, and the villain shoves, I'm snap-calling because you're going to pick off a lot of hands from better players. Link to post Share on other sites
XXEddie 0 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hero calls flop. Turn... (I can't remember) is some card that is lower than a 10 that doesn't pair the board. Hero checks, Villain shoves. Fist-pump snap-call, yeah? Yeah. His shove is greater than the pot, right? That's a strange line if he has you beat. There aren't a lot of draws that he would/should be worried about. Yes.Sorry you got beat by some set or donk-played QQ, but it's still a call.how come I everytime a guy slowplays a hand and gets paid, people call it a 'donk play'? Slowplaying big pairs can be very risky but if you play it right you can win a big pot. Link to post Share on other sites
cdipierr 0 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 how come I everytime a guy slowplays a hand and gets paid, people call it a 'donk play'? Slowplaying big pairs can be very risky but if you play it right you can win a big pot.Because in this hand, Hero was UTG. Villain was UTG+1. Flatting an UTG raise with QQ+ and 7 players left to act is a donk play, because you're going to likely get callers behind you. And when that happens and an A or K flops, you're going to be beat (especially in a $4.40). If the villain was on the button or in the BB or something, maybe. And even then I wouldn't do it in a $4.40 because with QQ+, you're going to get folks to stack off with 88 preflop. Link to post Share on other sites
DonkSlayer 1 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Yeah. His shove is greater than the pot, right? That's a strange line if he has you beat. There aren't a lot of draws that he would/should be worried about. how come I everytime a guy slowplays a hand and gets paid, people call it a 'donk play'? Slowplaying big pairs can be very risky but if you play it right you can win a big pot.Slowplaying is soooo 2006. Link to post Share on other sites
JSpencer 0 Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 I'd flat the flop, check the turn and shove if he bets. (assuming it's a safe card)Probably has something silly like A10,66, AQ, AJ Link to post Share on other sites
BeaverStyle 1 Posted August 15, 2009 Author Share Posted August 15, 2009 Because in this hand, Hero was UTG. Villain was UTG+1. Flatting an UTG raise with QQ+ and 7 players left to act is a donk play, because you're going to likely get callers behind you. And when that happens and an A or K flops, you're going to be beat (especially in a $4.40). If the villain was on the button or in the BB or something, maybe. And even then I wouldn't do it in a $4.40 because with QQ+, you're going to get folks to stack off with 88 preflop.you say that like it is in absolute fact in every situation conceivable... I'm going to guess you worded that wrong. Link to post Share on other sites
cdipierr 0 Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 you say that like it is in absolute fact in every situation conceivable... I'm going to guess you worded that wrong.I guess conceivably there are some situations where as UTG+1, you'd flat UTG's raise with QQ at a 9-handed table, but I can't think of many, honestly. Link to post Share on other sites
trystero 0 Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 I don't agree at allIn fact I'd say it's pretty bad to just mindlessly 3-bet from UTG+1. Unless you're against a ton of donks, it's going to be extremely hard to get action from dominated hands even as strong as AQ. In aggro online tournaments you can confidently flat from UTG+1, figure someone's going to try and scoop the dead money, and get it all-in if possible. Basically if you're a TAG, or even a positionally-aware LAG, then you're going to have AQ+/JJ+ like every single time when you 3-bet from EP. Not a good situation, especially if you're deepstackedIn a $4 then, OK, the majority of players are atrocious, and you can probably get called by like 33 riding the implied odds train with 20 BBs Link to post Share on other sites
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