Penn On Proselytizing

[CobaltBlue 662]

This has been making the rounds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JHS8adO3hM

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

This has been making the rounds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JHS8adO3hM

i agree 100 percent with penn. I've known several atheists over the years who hate the fact that some christains proselytize, and I've always defended them, because I mean.. they think that most of the world is going to hell, they are just trying to help you. It may annoy you, but I mean, you should take it as a complement that they want to save your soul.

[timwakefield 68]

Penn is a good magician, but constantly shows that he's not much of an intellectual. His truck analogy is certainly a bad one. Sure, if somebody sees a truck bearing down on me I hope they would be kind enough to warn me, but if they're constantly warning me about invisible trucks that will torture me after I die, I would start to get annoyed and question their beliefs. His main point was that this man was a "good man." Okay, I'll take Penn's message that Christians are sometimes nice people (this was not a debate), and a long time ago I in fact told a story here about a guy who used the WWJD mantra on me when I thanked him for being so kind, and how that affected me. But just because somebody is a really nice, good, sane person, it doesn't mean Christianity is responsible.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

But just because somebody is a really nice, good, sane person, it doesn't mean Christianity is responsible.

i Don't think he was making that point at all.

[timwakefield 68]

i Don't think he was making that point at all.

What point was he making?

[hblask 1]

Of all celebrities who open their mouth in public, Penn Gillette seems to be correct the most. He is always intelligent and thoughtful, he's not afraid to admit that life is complicated and confusing and often has shades of gray.To answer the question "what point is he making", the point is that being a good person overrides any divisions we have on the specifics of our belief system, and that we should search for the good in the world instead of finding people who agree with us. Also, he just appreciated that there are people that nice out there.I had seen his video about a Jewish man's first bacon about a month ago, that's pretty cool, too. He seems like he's be a fun person to hang out with.Also, I read an article about him once that said he had a custom hot tub built with a special seat for the ladies with a feature that rhymes with "sit bet" for between their legs.

[Mercury69 3]

Jesus, take the wheel!

[vbnautilus 48]

i agree 100 percent with penn. I've known several atheists over the years who hate the fact that some christains proselytize, and I've always defended them, because I mean.. they think that most of the world is going to hell, they are just trying to help you. It may annoy you, but I mean, you should take it as a complement that they want to save your soul.

I disagree for a number of reasons. First, it's not a complement to you because 1. it really has nothing to do with you and 2. given their belief they should be proselytizing to everyone, even especially those who are in need of saving, i.e. the worst people. Second, the fact that their belief requires them to perform certain actions does not make those actions respectable. Sure, they'd be inconsistent with their belief if they didn't, but the value of consistency relates to what exactly you are being consistent with. Sorry for getting to godwin's law so fast, but I don't praise a Nazi because they think they are trying to help the world out by purging it of jews. Pretty much everyone thinks they are doing the right thing -- that doesn't mean that they are. I do like Penn though and generally agree with most of what he says in the video.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

What point was he making?

That the guy who approached him was nice. That not all christians suck. That christanity can be flawed, and cause many bad things, but it's followers can be very good people. That atheists shouldn't get so offended about Proselytizing.

[brvheart 1,752]

I disagree for a number of reasons. First, it's not a complement to you because 1. it really has nothing to do with you and 2. given their belief they should be proselytizing to everyone, even especially those who are in need of saving, i.e. the worst people. Second, the fact that their belief requires them to perform certain actions does not make those actions respectable. Sure, they'd be inconsistent with their belief if they didn't, but the value of consistency relates to what exactly you are being consistent with. Sorry for getting to godwin's law so fast, but I don't praise a Nazi because they think they are trying to help the world out by purging it of jews. Pretty much everyone thinks they are doing the right thing -- that doesn't mean that they are. I do like Penn though and generally agree with most of what he says in the video.

huh?

[vbnautilus 48]

huh?

Point being it's not really a compliment to be thought of as someone whose life needs saving. In fact, it can be a bit insulting.

[brvheart 1,752]

Point being it's not really a compliment to be thought of as someone whose life needs saving. In fact, it can be a bit insulting.

That's not what I was pointing out. You implied in what I bolded that the people that 'especially' need saving are the 'worst' people. This confuses the Christian in me.

[vbnautilus 48]

That's not what I was pointing out. You implied in what I bolded that the people that 'especially' need saving are the 'worst' people. This confuses the Christian in me.

Seems to me the people most in need of that teaching are the ones who are most lacking compassion, kindness, self-sacrifice, etc.

[Balloon guy 158]

Seems to me the people most in need of that teaching are the ones who are most lacking compassion, kindness, self-sacrifice, etc.

So if they get help..that's a bad thing because we are pointing out that they are lacking?And actually everyone is in need of that teaching.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Seems to me the people most in need of that teaching are the ones who are most lacking compassion, kindness, self-sacrifice, etc.

Well, you're trying to imprint your own values onto a christian. A certain kind of Christian, thinks ALL non believers are going to hell. There aren't degrees of going to hell. So it doesn't matter if you're the nicest, sweetest guy, or an amoral sociopath, you are both going to hell. Everyone who hasn't taking jesus christ as their own personal lord and savior needs that teaching the most, according to their mind.

[brvheart 1,752]

Well, you're trying to imprint your own values onto a christian. A certain kind of Christian, thinks ALL non believers are going to hell. There aren't degrees of going to hell. So it doesn't matter if you're the nicest, sweetest guy, or an amoral sociopath, you are both going to hell. Everyone who hasn't taking jesus christ as their own personal lord and savior needs that teaching the most, according to the Bible.

fyp

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

fyp

same difference.

[vbnautilus 48]

So if they get help..that's a bad thing because we are pointing out that they are lacking?And actually everyone is in need of that teaching.

My only point was that having a christian think you need christianity is not some kind of compliment. From a christian point of view everyone should be worth saving.

Well, you're trying to imprint your own values onto a christian. A certain kind of Christian, thinks ALL non believers are going to hell. There aren't degrees of going to hell. So it doesn't matter if you're the nicest, sweetest guy, or an amoral sociopath, you are both going to hell. Everyone who hasn't taking jesus christ as their own personal lord and savior needs that teaching the most, according to their mind.

Yeah well that's kind of why I disagreed with you that it was some kind of compliment for them to want to proselytize to you. They do it to everyone. (but I do think there are many christians who will agree that a guy who lives with the same values of jesus is doing better than some selfish bastard even though he may not have accepted the terminology of christianity. I happen to have similar values to Jesus except unlike him I rejected my parent's Judaism. I think there are plenty of religious people who recognize that its much more important to live and act compassionately and wholesomely than it is to pledge allegiance to some entity or to believe unscientific theories about the origin of life. )

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

My only point was that having a christian think you need christianity is not some kind of compliment. From a christian point of view everyone should be worth saving. Yeah well that's kind of why I disagreed with you that it was some kind of compliment for them to want to proselytize to you. They do it to everyone. (but I do think there are many christians who will agree that a guy who lives with the same values of jesus is doing better than some selfish bastard even though he may not have accepted the terminology of christianity)

maybe complement was the wrong word. Maybe I meant, they are trying to give you a gift.

[vbnautilus 48]

maybe complement was the wrong word. Maybe I meant, they are trying to give you a gift.

if that's what their goal is, I'd like to take this opportunity to let all the christians know that I'd prefer Cheese of the Month Club to their book.

[navybuttons 15]

fyp

where in the bible does it say that people who don't believe in jesus are going to hell?

[brvheart 1,752]

(but I do think there are many christians who will agree that a guy who lives with the same values of jesus is doing better than some selfish bastard even though he may not have accepted the terminology of christianity.

no

where in the bible does it say that people who don't believe in jesus are going to hell?

John 14:6and Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me."

[vbnautilus 48]

no

Let me get this straight, it's really not important whether someone lives a good life and is good to those around him. It only matters if he believes in supernatural entities. I doubt Jesus would have agreed with that.

[brvheart 1,752]

Let me get this straight, it's really not important whether someone lives a good life and is good to those around him. It only matters if he believes in supernatural entities. I doubt Jesus would have agreed with that.

lolI have no better response than to say that you are incorrect. The only reason Jesus came to Earth was to die for people and have them believe in him. So you're incorrect.

[timwakefield 68]

I have no better response than to say that you are incorrect. The only reason Jesus came to Earth was to die for people and have them believe in him. So you're incorrect.

And I have no better response than to say that you are incorrect. Jesus was a wise religious man 2000 years ago and his followers founded a religion based on his teachings. He was a human being the same as anybody else, he was just a great teacher and thinker, and his brutal martyrdom made his followers love and remember him all the more.Neither you or I has given evidence, or could in fact prove to the other one that one of us is correct and the other is mistaken.