SlackerInc 0 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 3-1 pot odds, ultra crappy hand. Could eliminate the shortstack, or more likely give him an extra 460 in chips.Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2+0.25 Tournament, 200/400 Blinds (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comsaw flop | saw showdownCO (t8870)Button (t5630)SB (t8905)Hero (BB) (t12610)UTG (t860)MP (t3625)Hero's M: 21.02Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 8UTG raises to t860 (All-In), 4 folds, Hero...? Link to post Share on other sites
BeaverStyle 1 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Not taking into consideration any hard math, I'm pretty sure sb is pushing ATC here... getting 3-1 I call w/ ATC here. Link to post Share on other sites
XXEddie 0 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Not taking into consideration any hard math, I'm pretty sure sb is pushing ATC here... getting 3-1 I call w/ ATC here.Not to mention thisis only 3% of our stack Link to post Share on other sites
dingas 0 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 This is a really easy call. With 3:1 odds that means you need to be 25% to win the pot. Against any reasonable range for UTG's push you have much better than 25% odds. Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 It's not a crying call with that stack. Call and say gg when you river a 5. Link to post Share on other sites
TrueAce13 18 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 It's not a crying call with that stack. Call and say gg when you river a 5. Link to post Share on other sites
MovingIn 0 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Call a short all-in when you believe you're ahead of villain's range. 85o isn't ahead of much of anything. Let him have the BB, because he's likely not long for the tourney anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Call a short all-in when you believe you're ahead of villain's range. 85o isn't ahead of much of anything. Let him have the BB, because he's likely not long for the tourney anyway.Wrong. 460 to call, likely shoving atc. Chances are you are 40/60 here. It's absolutely a call with those pot odds. Link to post Share on other sites
looshle 6 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Call a short all-in when you believe you're ahead of villain's range. 85o isn't ahead of much of anything. Let him have the BB, because he's likely not long for the tourney anyway.oh god no.If somehow the villians range were 88+,ATs+,KQs,AKo, folding 85 off here would be -EV. (We'd be a 2.6 underdog getting 3.3-1 on our money)Obviously the villians range should be top 95% of hands, and we are profiting EVEN IF his range is top 6% of hands.I suggest anyone who doesn't have pokerstove to DL it immediately and mess around with hands like these. Link to post Share on other sites
SlackerInc 0 Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 8UTG raises to t860 (All-In), 4 folds, Hero calls t460Flop: (t1920) 5, 9, 5(2 players, 1 all-in)Turn: (t1920) 5(2 players, 1 all-in)River: (t1920) 10(2 players, 1 all-in)Total pot: t1920Results:Hero had 5, 8 (four of a kind, fives).UTG had J, K (three of a kind, fives).Outcome: Hero won t1920Villain of course whined about my "donkey call", grumbled about how "the best hand always loses on this site", etc.; and it seemed to result in the rest of the table suddenly seeing me as a goofball calling station, but I felt it was a justifiable call given the immense pot odds...glad to know you guys agree. Link to post Share on other sites
Andynice20 0 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 8UTG raises to t860 (All-In), 4 folds, Hero calls t460Flop: (t1920) 5, 9, 5(2 players, 1 all-in)Turn: (t1920) 5(2 players, 1 all-in)River: (t1920) 10(2 players, 1 all-in)Total pot: t1920Results:Hero had 5, 8 (four of a kind, fives).UTG had J, K (three of a kind, fives).Outcome: Hero won t1920Villain of course whined about my "donkey call", grumbled about how "the best hand always loses on this site", etc.; and it seemed to result in the rest of the table suddenly seeing me as a goofball calling station, but I felt it was a justifiable call given the immense pot odds...glad to know you guys agree.Exact same thing happened Saturday @ the 9am $120 tourney @ Foxwoods. I was the BB with a huge stack, 10 to the money. Folds to the SB who shoves, I'm getting 3-1 to call less than 10% of my chips to knock someone out. I call with 57o, he's got A's. I flop 2 pair and he goes bye bye. Then has to be escorted out of the casino as he throws a fit @ my donk-ness. Meantime we're happier we're 1 closer to the money.You did the perfect thing in this situation, if they don't understand just hope you keep running into him! Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 8UTG raises to t860 (All-In), 4 folds, Hero calls t460Flop: (t1920) 5, 9, 5(2 players, 1 all-in)Turn: (t1920) 5(2 players, 1 all-in)River: (t1920) 10(2 players, 1 all-in)Total pot: t1920Results:Hero had 5, 8 (four of a kind, fives).UTG had J, K (three of a kind, fives).Outcome: Hero won t1920Villain of course whined about my "donkey call", grumbled about how "the best hand always loses on this site", etc.; and it seemed to result in the rest of the table suddenly seeing me as a goofball calling station, but I felt it was a justifiable call given the immense pot odds...glad to know you guys agree. It's not a crying call with that stack. Call and say gg when you river a 5 HIT QUADS. Link to post Share on other sites
SlackerInc 0 Posted January 20, 2009 Author Share Posted January 20, 2009 Exact same thing happened Saturday @ the 9am $120 tourney @ Foxwoods. I was the BB with a huge stack, 10 to the money. Folds to the SB who shoves, I'm getting 3-1 to call less than 10% of my chips to knock someone out. I call with 57o, he's got A's. I flop 2 pair and he goes bye bye. Then has to be escorted out of the casino as he throws a fit @ my donk-ness. Meantime we're happier we're 1 closer to the money.You did the perfect thing in this situation, if they don't understand just hope you keep running into him!Wow, the SB had bullets? Crazy. At least in my case I had two live cards...you really did catch lucky. Although the CardPlayer odds calculator says you still had almost a 20% chance of winning (sort of surprising). In my case I was a 2-1 dog. Link to post Share on other sites
MovingIn 0 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 oh god no.If somehow the villians range were 88+,ATs+,KQs,AKo, folding 85 off here would be -EV. (We'd be a 2.6 underdog getting 3.3-1 on our money)Obviously the villians range should be top 95% of hands, and we are profiting EVEN IF his range is top 6% of hands.I suggest anyone who doesn't have pokerstove to DL it immediately and mess around with hands like these.Oops... yeah, didn't quite consider the relative stacks and that we're well in the money with the big stack. Yeah, not a bad call, then. Link to post Share on other sites
bahlgren342 0 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I'd call in this situation. Once short stacks are in the money they tend to shove with a wider range. A shorty once shoved 3 times in one orbit, so I figured he was in desperation mode. I was the 3rd big stack of the MTT and I called him with a nice little 7-5d. He ended up flipping over AA this time and I flopped two pair. Lets say he was railing me for a while. :)lol just realized a VERY similiar post was posted a few above mine. Mine was online though so it's a different story Link to post Share on other sites
NankerPhelge 0 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 How short do we have to be before we give this up? I agree this is a standard call but I always face a dilemma as to when the 'cut-off' occurs. What kind of percentage of our stack does the raise have to represent before we fold? Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 How short do we have to be before we give this up? I agree this is a standard call but I always face a dilemma as to when the 'cut-off' occurs. What kind of percentage of our stack does the raise have to represent before we fold?It's really not a matter of your stack size as much of an issue of pot odds that you are getting. If you put your opponent on a range (let's for arguments sake put him on the top 50%), you would stand to win this hand 1/3 times. So you're a 2-1 dog getting over 3-1 in return. I think the only case I would fold this is if I was the short stack and it was the bubble, even then I'm usually calling if I can put the villain on a wide range because it's such a +ev play. Link to post Share on other sites
TrueAce13 18 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 mbn Link to post Share on other sites
jmbreslin 0 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 It's really not a matter of your stack size as much of an issue of pot odds that you are getting. If you put your opponent on a range (let's for arguments sake put him on the top 50%), you would stand to win this hand 1/3 times. So you're a 2-1 dog getting over 3-1 in return. I think the only case I would fold this is if I was the short stack and it was the bubble, even then I'm usually calling if I can put the villain on a wide range because it's such a +ev play.But chip ev doesn't necessarily equal $ ev. Some decisions may be +ev in terms of chips but are more marginal in terms of your overall tournament equity. Making a call on the bubble based purely on pot odds when a loss would cripple/bust you is likely one of those situations. For example, say you're on the bubble of a STT...Villain 1: 7000Villain 2: 3500Hero (BB): 1300Villain 3 (SB): 700Blinds are 100/200/25 and it's folded to SB, who pushes in his 700. The pot is 1100 and it's 500 more to you, for better than 2-1 pot odds. You have the pot odds to call with ATC here but should you? Call and win the bubble breaks, but you're still in 3rd place. Call and lose, you're down to 800, villain 3 increases to 1100, and now you're in serious risk of bubbling. Not enough upside to justify the risk. Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 But chip ev doesn't necessarily equal $ ev. Some decisions may be +ev in terms of chips but are more marginal in terms of your overall tournament equity. Making a call on the bubble based purely on pot odds when a loss would cripple/bust you is likely one of those situations. For example, say you're on the bubble of a STT...Villain 1: 7000Villain 2: 3500Hero (BB): 1300Villain 3 (SB): 700Blinds are 100/200/25 and it's folded to SB, who pushes in his 700. The pot is 1100 and it's 500 more to you, for better than 2-1 pot odds. You have the pot odds to call with ATC here but should you? Call and win the bubble breaks, but you're still in 3rd place. Call and lose, you're down to 800, villain 3 increases to 1100, and now you're in serious risk of bubbling. Not enough upside to justify the risk.You're right, and as I said, it may make sense from a being short on the bubble point of view and depending on the pot odds. But, getting 3.2-1 like in the above example, there isn't a situation where it would not be a more favorable +$EV to call. It may be too marginal of an edge for some to take, but +$EV nonetheless. Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Call for meta game purposes of showing down 85o.Also the irrestible pot odds. And the fact it's none of your stack.edit : and the fact you're 95% sure of making quads this hand Link to post Share on other sites
NankerPhelge 0 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 But chip ev doesn't necessarily equal $ evExactly. I don't really care if villain is pushing ATC if calling and losing means I'm well below average and I double up the short stack. That's how I feel anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Exactly. I don't really care if villain is pushing ATC if calling and losing means I'm well below average and I double up the short stack. That's how I feel anyway.As I said 2 posts ago, getting 3.2-1 odds, there isn't a situation calling this shove in the BB is a -$EV/cEV play at this blind level, at least not one that I could come up with. Link to post Share on other sites
jmbreslin 0 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 In the original hand posted it's an easy call because of the combination of pot odds and the fact that the 400 chips is merely a grain in Hero's sand hill (how's that for a metaphor?). I was only making the point that tournament decisions aren't only about pot odds like cash game decisions are. Link to post Share on other sites
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