4.40, 12 Left, Facing Check Shove On Flop

[DrZoidberg 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00+$0.40 Tournament, 400/800 Blinds 75 Ante (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB (t19127)UTG (t13695)MP (t15623)Hero (CO) (t13721)Button (t34591)SB (t20575)Hero's M: 8.32Preflop: Hero is CO with A , 9 2 folds, Hero raises to t2000, 2 folds, BB calls t1200Flop: (t4850) 6 , 4 , A (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets t4000, BB raises to t17052 (All-In), Hero?I hadn't been very aggressive at all up to this point, and it was time to start making some moves or quickly blind out. I know the pre flop raise is non-standard, but I wanted to keep the pot manageable, I haven't been playing for a while so I know I'm a bit rusty. Villain was running 47/23 for 17 hands, not much of a read. If I fold here I'm left with 7000 or so, in my mind at this point in the tournament that's crippled, so if I give up here I'm playing shove/fold. Thoughts?

[clingfree 0]

You've already put 1/2 your stack in, no choice but to call and load up a new one IMO.I think you would have been better to push the flop in this situation and put the decision in his hands.

[SlackerInc 0]

Tough spot. If the blinds were lower you could fold and live to fight another day; but in this situation I think you have to reluctantly call and hope for the best.

[TrueAce13 18]

Puke call, but I do think that you should have just shoved the flop imo

[RISEorFall 0]

you can bet smaller on the flop. theres not many draws you need to protect against, and with a 4k bet you've put almost half your stack in. 2500-3k would be enough to charge and random straight draw, or worse As drawing at their kicker. it'd also save you about a round of blinds if you decide to fold.having said that, i think we have to call. 12th and 10th dont pay any different, and folding here leaves you too short to do much. random chance he's bluffing and decent chance he has a worse A or pocket pair., and if not you have a few outs. you want more chips going to the FT, not worried about going out in 12th or 11th.

[RISEorFall 0]

Puke call, but I do think that you should have just shoved the flop imo

what would way overbet-shoving the flop accomplish? getting worse hands to fold and better hands to call is about it.

[Gallo 1]

what would way overbet-shoving the flop accomplish? getting worse hands to fold and better hands to call is about it.

Yeah, but no hard decision to be made. lol j/k

[SlackerInc 0]

what would way overbet-shoving the flop accomplish? getting worse hands to fold and better hands to call is about it.

QFT, as long as you have the courage to go all the way with the hand. If you don't, shoving the flop saves you from getting bluffed out.

[Shark527 0]

you can bet smaller on the flop. theres not many draws you need to protect against, and with a 4k bet you've put almost half your stack in. 2500-3k would be enough to charge and random straight draw, or worse As drawing at their kicker. it'd also save you about a round of blinds if you decide to fold.having said that, i think we have to call. 12th and 10th dont pay any different, and folding here leaves you too short to do much. random chance he's bluffing and decent chance he has a worse A or pocket pair., and if not you have a few outs. you want more chips going to the FT, not worried about going out in 12th or 11th.

I thinik this is really important in our decision. If you fold your a real short stack. You can't hope to make a good run starting in 12th spot and working your way up. You have to call.

[MovingIn 0]

At this point, under 20BB, you're looking for a spot to get it in and double up anyway. My donktastically aggressive arse might have open shoved pre with this stack, but I can see the argument for your smaller raise. You've got to be willing to get it in if you spike top pair, though, because there's not a lot of room for postflop play and you can't fold without crippling yourself. You only see a flop with this stack if you're ready to get it all in once you flop something favorable.The c/r shove reeks of a flopped 2 pair or set, but maybe villain's thinking 3rd level and knows this, hoping he can spook you into folding. Not sure if you've played in any way that would justify it, though. He could have a weaker Ace, maybe even 2nd pair, an OESD or a bald bluff.

[HighwayStar 8]

shoving preflop isn't terrible but it's not great either.You have to call as played but I probably shove or check behind on the flop - I can't think of any obvious turn cards that change our hand value relative to his (he could hit a set I guess) and I can get value from moving in over a turn lead.

[DrZoidberg 0]

Results:I really didn't expect him to come over the top, and it was a pretty tough decision. After looking at the lobby and seeing my relative position compared to everyone else, I decided I had to call, if I ended up doubling through I was in great shape to make a run at the FT, folding just wasn't an option. So I called and wasn't surprised to see how close it really was. I had outs for a split after the turn, but it wasn't to be.In retrospect, I agree that a smaller flop bet would have made the decision less one sided, and would have accomplished the same thing without putting so much of my stack in. I think he probably would have called if I pushed on top of his turn lead had I checked behind, but that might have been a much better play.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00+$0.40 Tournament, 400/800 Blinds 75 Ante (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB (t19127)UTG (t13695)MP (t15623)Hero (CO) (t13721)Button (t34591)SB (t20575)Hero's M: 8.32Preflop: Hero is CO with A , 9 2 folds, Hero raises to t2000, 2 folds, BB calls t1200Flop: (t4850) 6 , 4 , A (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets t4000, BB raises to t17052 (All-In), Hero calls t7646 (All-In)Turn: (t28142) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)River: (t28142) 7 (2 players, 2 all-in)Total pot: t28142BB had A , 10 (two pair, Aces and sixes).Hero had A , 9 (two pair, Aces and sixes).Outcome: BB won t28142

[SlackerInc 0]

BB had A , 10 (two pair, Aces and sixes).Hero had A , 9 (two pair, Aces and sixes).Outcome: BB won t28142

Bummer. I wonder if he would have snap called a flop shove? Probably. You were almost tied, as you said, but he had the upper hand. So it goes...

[simo_8ball 0]

FWIW I like your preflop bet size, but your flop bet is pretty horrible. I'd bet $2500 on the flop, or maybe just check behind and look for value on later streets.BTW, if you aren't calling this shove, just check back the flop.

[AdamC 0]

i'd also do a search for the guy, and put in a few notes about his play...he clearly plays the a-mid kicker with aggressive fear....lots of trapping potential in the future there

[DrZoidberg 0]

I agree that the flop bet was pretty bad, I need to think more about what I'm trying to accomplish, and there It was just "you better fold because I'm betting so much". The smaller 2500 or so bet would have accomplished the same thing without sacrificing such a large portion of my remaining chips.I've heard from a couple people that I could have checked behind on the flop, but I find that a really tough thing to do short after flopping top pair, it's true that there's almost no scare cards on the turn, but there's nothing worse then checking to a showdown and seeing that a bet on any street would have taken it down.Thanks for the comments and advice guys!

[JCarver 0]

I don't mind shoving preflop, but otherwise PF is fine. Six handed, I think you can say that a guy playing 47/23 never has AK or even AQ here (due to the lack of pf RR). Eliminating that leaves us beaten by AJ, AT, A6, A4, 44, 66, and 64. Would he ch/shove with all his worse aces and occasionally other random hands (badly played KK,QQ, 6x, 57, 35) that you beat? I think he might, however, by betting 4k into a 5k pot you discourage said spaz from him and probably make him fold a lot of the random air and just get him to shove all the aces+ in his range instead. A bet on the flop of 2250, even 1850 (yes less than the pf open), or 2450 will serve you better here - it may create the illusion of fold equity for him, possibly inducing a spaz-shove as well as letting you bluff cheaper since you'll be betting the same amount with your bluffs here (range balancing doesn't matter in $4 tournaments, but betting 1850-2450 to win 5k with both cbets and aces is the way to go). Additionally, I guess you could fold to a shove and save some money, but you should be deciding that before you bet. If you know you're going to fold to a shove here before you bet, you're probably too weak-tight (in this spot 6 handed vs a 47/23), but at least you went into the hand with a plan.The other option is checking the flop behind and it's definitely a reasonable option if you feel you want to just potcontrol and ch/call/call three streets vs this guy - this basically depends on if you think that this guy will take stabs a lot with air on the turn and/or river or value town himself with a worse ace. It depends on your image, your opponent's postflop tendencies, and your feel of the hand to decide what's more profitable - bet small/get it in or ch behind and call-(probably)call. Personally, with my usual image, I prefer the latter line only because I usually end up risking less chips, I keep the pot smaller, and I disguise my hand a little bit with a check here on a fairly dry board and maybe let him catch up/convince himself his 2nd best hand is actually best.