BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 QUOTE (BigDMcGee @ Saturday, October 25th, 2008, 6:19 PM) *avalokiteshvara bodhisattvaZap Link to post Share on other sites
uncooper 1 Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 My thoughts when I get there.This is terrifying. Link to post Share on other sites
neretva 0 Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 I believe a great deal of the Bible is the dumbed down version of what God really did since we wouldn't understand it any more than a 2 year old would understand nuclear physics. By the way, just to really piss off all you atheists, I really don't have any idea at this point who I will be voting for. I've left it in God's hands to guide me when I get in the voting booth. Yes in my head, I lean Obama but that may not be what He wants me to do. And yes in my head, I dislike McCain intensely but yes I might end up voting for him if that's what God intends. Or a 3rd party candidate could be it. Don't think my vote will matter to anyone except me & Him however.How will you know it is not Satan guiding your vote?The short, and long, answer is: you won't. Link to post Share on other sites
RealMagnetic 0 Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 How will you know it is not Satan guiding your vote?The short, and long, answer is: you won't.Ummmmmmmmm Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 Either way, the only reason I started posting here was because someone implied that if you are spiritual then you are crazy or stupid or both. I couldn't let that go unanswered. Let me sum it all up:* there is a God, but probably not the way you think (less partisan, more universal, definitely doesn't care if you eat meat on Friday)* we are spiritual beings that are not just made of the usual physical stuff* that God force thing, is behind the scenes arranging things for your life, even if you forgot or don't believe in it, though disbelief does hinder the process. Not like some old guy, but more like an energy fieldhow can you be confident the "spiritual" experiences that led you to believe those (very specific) claims aren't delusions? serious question. Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 * that God force thing, is behind the scenes arranging things for your life, even if you forgot or don't believe in it, though disbelief does hinder the process. Not like some old guy, but more like an energy fieldIe nature, as Einstein saw god. Link to post Share on other sites
Nimue1995 1 Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 how can you be confident the "spiritual" experiences that led you to believe those (very specific) claims aren't delusions? serious question.NOOOOOOOO! You woke the Trobot! Now this will be the thread that never ends, just goes on and on my friends......... Link to post Share on other sites
RealMagnetic 0 Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Ie nature, as Einstein saw god.Yeah, in my opinion God is part of nature. Or they are intricately wound together. For example in the Bible it says we are created in the likeness of God. So our very nature is that of God. So to be natural, or to be true to ourselves is Godly. * there is a God, but probably not the way you think (less partisan, more universal, definitely doesn't care if you eat meat on Friday)* we are spiritual beings that are not just made of the usual physical stuff* that God force thing, is behind the scenes arranging things for your life, even if you forgot or don't believe in it, though disbelief does hinder the process. Not like some old guy, but more like an energy fieldhow can you be confident the "spiritual" experiences that led you to believe those (very specific) claims aren't delusions? serious question.I like good questions like this. No one person can be sure their perceptions aren't delusions. Even for example thinking it is good to eat fruits and vegetables. People are capable of not thinking clearly. I agree. So for a lot of these things we use the scientific method to help us decide if what we are seeing as true is actually something that happens repeatedly, or if it was just us "seeing things"...Now for spiritual matter the issue can become tricky. How do we use scientific methods that are most suitable to studying physical phenomena, but instead study spiritual laws? Many spiritual concepts are very personal. For example, many Christians believe God is a personal being who they can contact or be in touch with at all times. How does science even begin to conceive of how to study this phenomenon WHEN SCIENCE IS FOUNDED ON THE ASSUMPTION OF THE TOTAL OPPOSITE that the world is not connected to us in a personal, even LOVING way? Is science built to handle the job of understanding these things? Yes, I think it can be. But it has to ask the right questions in the right ways, and not try to squeeze spirituality into a round hole when it is a square peg so to speak.Now me personally, how can I know I am not deluded? Well I can not PROVE 100% I am not deluded, just like you cannot prove 100% you are not deluded, in whatever it is that you think you know to be true. I cannot repeat my experiences for lots of scientists to gather around and statistically analyze, so I myself do the best I can to do it :-)My conclusions come from about 8-9 years of intensive search. But that is all a bunch of unproven stuff, just my perceptions. Unfortunately that is what I have got to work on. The main principle I have seen that anyone can see for themselves is that when you have faith in life, things tend to work out better. Also, what you focus on, tends to happen. I have had many, many things happen to me that I asked God for, just like it says in the Bible. People might come right up to me and offer me the thing I was just saying I needed. Or I might meet a person who does something for me I have ALWAYS wanted, but never mentioned to anyone. I have tons of anecdotal evidence. What happens when you add enough anecdotal evidence up? Either you get a bunch of junk, hehe, or you get the suggestion that perhaps there is more going on here than what we thought was going on. No amount of anecdotal experience is ever enough. But if that is how you see it, you can never expand into anything spiritual, because the amount of good quality research on the subject is lacking. I can't have you download my life, that would be very cool, as I think humanity could learn a lot that way from each other. I might be delusional I admit the possibility. But you don't think you are excluded from that club do you?! All the Best,Alex Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 SCIENCE IS FOUNDED ON THE ASSUMPTION OF THE TOTAL OPPOSITE that the world is not connected to us in a personal, even LOVING way?Where do you get this idea from?The main principle I have seen that anyone can see for themselves is that when you have faith in life, things tend to work out better. Also, what you focus on, tends to happen.Those are both scientifically testable issues.Spirituality, as part of nature, is no less amenable to scientific study than anything else. Link to post Share on other sites
RealMagnetic 0 Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Where do you get this idea from?Those are both scientifically testable issues.Spirituality, as part of nature, is no less amenable to scientific study than anything else.For the first part, I get that idea from the fact that it is assumed in science that things will happen the same no matter WHO is doing the experiment. But if God loves us each individually then that would allow for a different kind of universe. One where personality becomes relevant. So to study such a concept scientifically would involve thousands of variables, making it very hard to study. Not saying I believe that, but imagine how tricky it would be to find out conclusively.For example in the Bible it says something along the lines of: "according to your belief it shall be done" To study this in depth would require I guess a very detailed psychological profile. One that somehow could data mine that person's beliefs, but it couldn't ask them outright because you know people would not be able to honestly ascertain their own beliefs (who is going to write on a piece of paper something like: deep down I feel like I am worthless? for example...) Now on top of this, if you are studying that phrase, "according to your belief it shall be done" scientifically, then you would have to wonder about the beliefs of those people running the experiment as well. Because their beliefs could be affecting the results of the experiment. For example, if two scientists really don't believe that the above Biblical statement has truth to it, yet they go and do the experiment anyway, and find that they were right, did they prove that belief has no affect on people's lives? OR did they find that belief DOES affect their lives (by making the experiment agree with their beliefs?) In that instance the beliefs of the scientists would have muddled the results, if the experiment wasn't designed well so as to be aware of these kinds of possibilities. Then, you would have to factor everything in to somehow see if the affects of belief, were from some spiritual force acting beneficially in their lives, OR if it was merely a result of a beneficial frame of mind. For me this is where anecdotal evidence comes into play: I have had so many situations happen that I deem to be statistically highly unlikely. The more I think about it, it could all definitely be studied scientifically, they would just need a very extensive and detailed study, and it would have to be designed with the right questions in mind.Second part, I guess they are testable. Guess you're right. I don't believe that spirituality is this untouchable thing outside the realm of mere humans to understand, so as far as I am concerned science and spirituality are one. Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 But if that is how you see it, you can never expand into anything spiritual, because the amount of good quality research on the subject is lacking.actually searching for anything that might transcend known laws is part of science. for example there is a staggering amount of research that without exception has directly linked all aspects of consciousness/awareness/emotion to the physical brain/body. if there were a metaphysical aspect to these things you would logically expect it to show up at least as anomaly. no such anomaly has been found. and that evidence is strengthened because it supports the direct implication of evolution (humans aren't special, just soul-free animals).it's also easily demonstratable that people frequently fool themselves using what they think is a statistical analysis of their own personal experiences, as you seem to be doing, by overweighting what could just be coincidence and ignoring everything else. that is just one way people fool themselves - there are many others that have been scientifically demonstrated. it's a scientific fact that what people think they know through personal experience or revelation is unreliable. it's also a simple logical fact, since a lot of what is claimed to be known via the exact same personal methods is contradictory/mutually exclusive. thus the probability is very high that what people think they know about the "spiritual" realm through personal experience is ALL nothing more than the product of self-delusion.you could of course make a philosophical argument that totally discounts science, but you don't get to say that confidence in the objective existence of a metaphyscial realm based on personal/internal evidence AND belief in the practical value of science can logically co-exist. that's obviously false. Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 For example in the Bible it says something along the lines of: "according to your belief it shall be done"the bible also says you'll be punished for your lack of belief in jesus as the only path to god, so not sure why you're referencing it. Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 NOOOOOOOO! You woke the Trobot! Now this will be the thread that never ends, just goes on and on my friends.........he says on page 11 B) Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 The main principle I have seen that anyone can see for themselves is that when you have faith in life, things tend to work out better. Also, what you focus on, tends to happen. I have had many, many things happen to me that I asked God for, just like it says in the Bible.You now have two hypothesis that can be studied scientifically. Any wagers on the outcomes?Your personal anecdotes dont have to be delusional, just self-deception. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 For the first part, I get that idea from the fact that it is assumed in science that things will happen the same no matter WHO is doing the experiment.No, it's not. Often scientific questions are framed to find what is generally true across people, but not always, and they needn't be. Very often scientists are specifically interested in how the individual qualities of a person are relevant to a question. So to study such a concept scientifically would involve thousands of variables, making it very hard to study. Not saying I believe that, but imagine how tricky it would be to find out conclusively.That is true of all science. One that somehow could data mine that person's beliefs, but it couldn't ask them outright because you know people would not be able to honestly ascertain their own beliefs (who is going to write on a piece of paper something like: deep down I feel like I am worthless? for example...)Well actually there are scales that measure that kind of thing quite reliably. Now on top of this, if you are studying that phrase, "according to your belief it shall be done" scientifically, then you would have to wonder about the beliefs of those people running the experiment as well. Because their beliefs could be affecting the results of the experiment. For example, if two scientists really don't believe that the above Biblical statement has truth to it, yet they go and do the experiment anyway, and find that they were right, did they prove that belief has no affect on people's lives? OR did they find that belief DOES affect their lives (by making the experiment agree with their beliefs?) In that instance the beliefs of the scientists would have muddled the results, if the experiment wasn't designed well so as to be aware of these kinds of possibilities.Avoiding the biases introduced by experimenters is a well-studied issue in science. You're right that its a concern, but there are methodological ways of dealing with it. Basically you are bringing up many of the challenges we face in doing psychological and behavioral research. They are good points to consider, but they don't preclude us from gaining scientific knowledge on these topics. Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Yeah, in my opinion God is part of nature. Or they are intricately wound together. For example in the Bible it says we are created in the likeness of God. So our very nature is that of God. So to be natural, or to be true to ourselves is Godly. Allow me to quote Frank Zappa: We are dumb all over and God made us to be in his image, so if we are dumb, then God is dumb and maybe even a little ugly on the side... Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Allow me to quote Frank Zappa: We are dumb all over and God made us to be in his image, so if we are dumb, then God is dumb and maybe even a little ugly on the side...I wonder if "yo mama" was written about god also?"Maybe you should stay with yo' mama, youre kinda stupid and ugly too".Just finished loading 20 hours of FZ onto my new Iphone. Link to post Share on other sites
Sheiky 0 Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 I wonder if "yo mama" was written about god also?"Maybe you should stay with yo' mama, youre kinda stupid and ugly too".Just finished loading 20 hours of FZ onto my new Iphone. I partially downloaded 'Frank Zappa discoraphy part 1' and I have 22.1 hours already, guy's insane and now every other song is Zappa when I use shuffle. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Wino Man is the only good Zappa song Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Wino Man is the only good Zappa songActually its called "Wonderful Wino" and I cant think of more than 2 or 3 bad Zappa cuts. Link to post Share on other sites
FCP Bob 1,312 Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Sheik Yerbouti was my favourite Zappa album.Seems somebody has a political statement to make with the video below although it's pretty lame.(Language Warning)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHjfDZDvPmkEdit: Found another political use of the song to balance things. Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Sheik Yerbouti was my favourite Zappa album.Seems somebody has a political statement to make with the video below although it's pretty lame.(Language Warning)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHjfDZDvPmkEdit: Found another political use of the song to balance things. 2d link broken? Link to post Share on other sites
FCP Bob 1,312 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 2d link broken?It works for me but this should also work. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 NM Link to post Share on other sites
Loismustdie 0 Posted October 29, 2008 Author Share Posted October 29, 2008 This thread was completely hijacked. Well done. Link to post Share on other sites
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