Tt - Button - 3 Tables Left Mtt

[jsull 0]

I haven't posted here in forever, but hope that some of the players that used to be here still browse this forum...... I think I screwed this hand up 15 different ways, please help:Villian in this hand is chipleader... I am 3rd or 4th in chips with 23 left. This is one of the daily doubles on FTP... so about 1000 players thereabouts.....He has shown down a 3-bet with KT preflop in a SB VS BB situation, in a situation where he didn't need to put so many chips in the pot....He called a very big all in not too long before that with AQ in MP for about 2/3 of his stack. Luckily, the donk he was up against managed to shove UTG with AT. Maybe that was read based... anywho... on to the hand.Tell me what you would do... and why. Detailed please... if you say 3-bet preflop, what do you do if raiser Shoves/Calls on the flop.. thank youFull Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem TournamentBlinds: t2000/t4000(Ante: t500)8 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: t250900UTG+1: t65180MP1: t76593MP2: t51380CO: t69323Hero: t140350SB: t48154BB: t57760Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is Button with T T UTG raises to t9400, 4 folds, Hero calls t9400 (pot was t19400), 2 folds.Flop: 3 5 4 (t28800, 2 players)UTG bets t28800, Hero raises all-in t130450, UTG calls t101650 (pot was t188050).Turn: J (t289700, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t289700)River: A (t289700, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t289700)Results:Final pot: t289700UTG showed Kh KcHero showed Th Ts

[Jariso13 1]

I think a great piece of information to have here would be what amount was the villains standard preflop raise amount. If he would generally make it 3 or 4x the bb and then suddenly woke up with a big pp and tried to encourage action by raising like 2.2x the bb from utg it should def send up red flags. If this was a standard raise for him I think the call preflop is fine. He sounds like an overly aggressive player with the potential to stack off with air. Just calling allows you to check out the flop without investing too much, and if the flop is good for you, pick off his c-bet since you are in position.But, if the guy normally raised more preflop and suddenly is throwing out a tiny raise, red flags need to go up. You need to do whatever you can to get more info about where you stand while investing as little chips as possible in the process. I would 3 bet preflop expecting him to come over of you if he has a big pp. If he does, then you gotta lay it down. If he just calls, I would say that he has 2 high cards or a pp probably lower than yours. Depending on how aggressive he is, if hes the type of player who would just ship in ak, jj, qq, or aq there, then you might just have to tip your hat to him and try to find a better spot to exploit him. You will lose 25 to 35k but its much better than getting your stack in on a flip at this stage of the tourney (unless your feeling saucy, run good in life, and wanna get a huge stack to run over people)

[copernicus 0]

Against a bigger stack, when youre already in great shape, TT definitely plays like a small-medium pair, so flatting PF is clearly best, and youre pretty much set mining. The flop is very tempting to play with all of those undercards but it is such a wet flop that you could be an equity dog to huge draws, behind to sets or overpairs etc. I would just fold the flop. I dont want to waste 30k chips looking for a "safe" turn card that might not even be safe. Pushing is clearly wrong, imo. You have very little FE giving 1.8:1 odds to draws and you dont cripple him if you win. Reraising doesnt work because youre then pot committed if he reraises and it becomes the same as a push.

[Aces Rule 0]

I don't think you could have done much else and got any different results. You hit a cooler and like they say "That's poker!"Cops, re ; folding that flop.. Seriously?? Except for hitting a set what better flop could you ask for? UTG pf raises with plenty of range that doesn't include overpairs so Hero trying to snap off AK, AQ, KQs, or a smaller pp than TT all make sense. If you would fold this flop, why would you call preflop when a set is 8:1 - kinda like spewing if you can't play a 5 hi flop!

[pokerinc 0]

the guys line is all big pair. smallish pre flop raise from utg to get a call or re raise then a hudge "Oh shit I'm terrified of you cracking my aa" pot bet at the flop. I guess I could see ak/aqss played the same way, but even then you're flipping.If he'd have made a 2/3 or smaller flop bet I could be fooled into getting it in. But that pot at the flop, without a read, is saying plz don't crack my big pair.

[copernicus 0]

I don't think you could have done much else and got any different results. You hit a cooler and like they say "That's poker!"Cops, re ; folding that flop.. Seriously?? Except for hitting a set what better flop could you ask for? UTG pf raises with plenty of range that doesn't include overpairs so Hero trying to snap off AK, AQ, KQs, or a smaller pp than TT all make sense. If you would fold this flop, why would you call preflop when a set is 8:1 - kinda like spewing if you can't play a 5 hi flop!

Ummmm a flop that doesnt have a flush draw and a bunch of OESDs? You can set mine (or play a less threatening non T flop) because he has such a big stack that you easily have the implied odds you need. You also might be able to play this flop against a much smaller stack, but facing off against the chip leader here is suicidal.also what pokerinc said

[Aces Rule 0]

Ummmm a flop that doesnt have a flush draw and a bunch of OESDs? You can set mine (or play a less threatening non T flop) because he has such a big stack that you easily have the implied odds you need. You also might be able to play this flop against a much smaller stack, but facing off against the chip leader here is suicidal.also what pokerinc said

There were some indicators but like pokerinc said overcards could also be played that way but OESD? Hardly likley hero would call a pfr with a deuce or a 6 unless they pocket pairs! Flush draw possible and might explain his pot size bet to reduce odds to 2:1 but also might be bet by a CL trying to shut the hand down with just overcards. I think the thread might have had a different slant had the results not been posted in the OP. Suggesting the villian was advertising a big pp is a huge assumsion since we don't know what the betting patterns have been for the table or the villian individually. Min-pfr or close to it are also made with sm-mid pp by some and even with suited connectors others so that bet is hardly proof. Perhaps hero could have/should have been more suspiecious but we really can't second guess that based on a few hands either. I still think it's a cooler and he was doomed no matter how it was played.

[SuperJon 175]

There were some indicators but like pokerinc said overcards could also be played that way but OESD? Hardly likley hero would call a pfr with a deuce or a 6 unless they pocket pairs! Flush draw possible and might explain his pot size bet to reduce odds to 2:1 but also might be bet by a CL trying to shut the hand down with just overcards. I think the thread might have had a different slant had the results not been posted in the OP. Suggesting the villian was advertising a big pp is a huge assumsion since we don't know what the betting patterns have been for the table or the villian individually. Min-pfr or close to it are also made with sm-mid pp by some and even with suited connectors others so that bet is hardly proof. Perhaps hero could have/should have been more suspiecious but we really can't second guess that based on a few hands either. I still think it's a cooler and he was doomed no matter how it was played.

No.Sure we don't know villain's exact betting patterns, but the villain's line was standard of a big pocket pair, very standard.Is it tough not going broke here? Of course, but it's possible.

[jsull 0]

Really? Because I see this as how somebody plays AK big time....Pot sized bet to get rid of whatever else other junk I may be calling with (because lets face it, I'm on the button, I have plenty of room to play flops if I want with this guy....) Also, he has the gutshot outs with AK or AQ... he can buy the pot with a pot sized bet if I have sooooted connectors such as 9T, TJ, or if I'm calling with other hands as well.....I also agree that the results are skewed because I posted the results, but come on... if you guys think a pot sized bet = big pocket pair then you must fold to pot sized bets 85% of the time??????? I also understand with the stack sizes I could set mine here, and that may be the correct line to take... At the point in time, I just saw UTG as a very marginal, aggressive player that I may be ahead of here.... I've seen him take two very loose lines earlier (see my examples).Copernicus, you were one of the people I would hope would post here.... So thank you for your input."Bet Pot" to me, says, "I don't know what else to bet, but I want to REPRESENT strength." Key word bolded.I fell into the trap of seeing MY hand... and making big assumpitions about my opponents, but not thinking what else I could be up against.

[copernicus 0]

There were some indicators but like pokerinc said overcards could also be played that way but OESD? Hardly likley hero would call a pfr with a deuce or a 6 unless they pocket pairs! Flush draw possible and might explain his pot size bet to reduce odds to 2:1 but also might be bet by a CL trying to shut the hand down with just overcards. I think the thread might have had a different slant had the results not been posted in the OP. Suggesting the villian was advertising a big pp is a huge assumsion since we don't know what the betting patterns have been for the table or the villian individually. Min-pfr or close to it are also made with sm-mid pp by some and even with suited connectors others so that bet is hardly proof. Perhaps hero could have/should have been more suspiecious but we really can't second guess that based on a few hands either. I still think it's a cooler and he was doomed no matter how it was played.

Villain has a massive chip lead, he can be playing almost ATC pf. gigabet's block theory would maintain that it carries almost zero cost. Certainly every Ax suited that connects, and any two connected cards that connect with that flop are in his range. Facing off against a massive chip leader with this hand is a huge leak.I dont know what the results were, but my answer wouldnt be any different if the OP had stopped at showing the flop and asking "Hero?"

[copernicus 0]

Really? Because I see this as how somebody plays AK big time....Pot sized bet to get rid of whatever else other junk I may be calling with (because lets face it, I'm on the button, I have plenty of room to play flops if I want with this guy....) Also, he has the gutshot outs with AK or AQ... he can buy the pot with a pot sized bet if I have sooooted connectors such as 9T, TJ, or if I'm calling with other hands as well.....I also agree that the results are skewed because I posted the results, but come on... if you guys think a pot sized bet = big pocket pair then you must fold to pot sized bets 85% of the time??????? I also understand with the stack sizes I could set mine here, and that may be the correct line to take... At the point in time, I just saw UTG as a very marginal, aggressive player that I may be ahead of here.... I've seen him take two very loose lines earlier (see my examples).Copernicus, you were one of the people I would hope would post here.... So thank you for your input."Bet Pot" to me, says, "I don't know what else to bet, but I want to REPRESENT strength." Key word bolded.I fell into the trap of seeing MY hand... and making big assumpitions about my opponents, but not thinking what else I could be up against.

I dont think hand reading/player reading is that critical here. The most important aspect of this hand are the stack sizes and those are known. Apologies but your name isnt familiar to me and im not sure how much reading youve done here, but about 3 months ago I was (and am still) of the belief that pot control is the most important aspect of deep stacked MTT poker. If you never commit your whole stack with TP/Overpair when you are coverd and have 35 bbs or so you probably arent losing much equity in the long run. Against a board like this its a no brainer, imo.If I had to guess at his hand Id put a flopped wheel, a flopped 7 high straight and a Flush draw + some other outs as his most likely hands.

[jsull 0]

If you never commit your whole stack with TP/Overpair when you are coverd and have 35 bbs or so you probably arent losing much equity in the long run.

I need to print this out and repeat it like a mantra....Thank you, this is a big leak of mine, because I have been known to stack off a ton of chips before in a manner like this....I'm not familiar to you because I haven't been around in at least one year, maybe two..... and I didn't post too awful much before.... thank you for responding though.

[SuperJon 175]

I need to print this out and repeat it like a mantra....Thank you, this is a big leak of mine, because I have been known to stack off a ton of chips before in a manner like this....I'm not familiar to you because I haven't been around in at least one year, maybe two..... and I didn't post too awful much before.... thank you for responding though.

I would say it's probably one of the biggest leaks of most MTT players.

[copernicus 0]

I need to print this out and repeat it like a mantra....Thank you, this is a big leak of mine, because I have been known to stack off a ton of chips before in a manner like this....I'm not familiar to you because I haven't been around in at least one year, maybe two..... and I didn't post too awful much before.... thank you for responding though.

welcome back

[MovingIn 0]

How often was villain raising PF? Did he bet out every flop he played? Was he throwing his big stack around?

[Aces Rule 0]

I would say it's probably one of the biggest leaks of most MTT players.

Agreed and it starts early imo b/c most MTTs have a fast structure and players become short stacked so early that all-in (or pot committed bets/raises) play to protect a hand on the flop is common even with just TP. Here, even if our hero had played it cautious on the flop but didn't fold he was looking at a pot committed bet on the turn and all-in on the river - although he had 35bb it wasn't enough to play deep stack poker and what FE he had was an all-in on the flop. Slowing down might have saved him with that Turn card scaring him off but we don't know how the villian (or hero) might have reacted to the 3rd spade either or if he would have got to see the Ace on the river and what that would have done to play. Besides the risk of an A,K,Q or J to outdraw him was too great to slowdown.I also agree with Cops that going broke with just TP is a senero to be avoided but NEVER is somewhat optimistic if that TP is an overpair to the board and vulnerable to other overcards pairing such as TT, JJ or QQ to an A or K on the Turn or River. With fewer than 50BB vs a stack equal or larger than yours, a standard pf raise of 3bb will quickly put you into a tuf position to protect what looks like the best hand most of the time - (there is always the chance you're up against AA isn't there?) without risking a significant part or all of your stack. Surely folding preflop vs the CL is the safest but you won't win tournaments continually playing scared to a CL so does an overpair laydown on the flop to a 5hi board? There aren't that many Phil Helmuths out there that can dodge bullets baby!Other than the possible flush draw (which I didn't think villian had given the pot size bet), I wasn't overly concerned with the st8 draws (actually I wasn't concerned at all) as those cards didn't fit into my range of the hero's pf raise of only 2.2xbb and then the flop bet being pot size. The flop bet still looks like a effort to push the hero off the pot b/c the villian should be worried about the flush/str8 draws and not the other way around.

[Mercury69 3]

OK, I kind of cheated and looked at the result, kind of knowing what was coming, but...I think this is one of those situations where you have to lay down a very nice hand PREFLOP and respect the UTG raise and his stack size. My thinking is that he would not be raising with crap from UTG as it's not a position to be tossing around chips with several stacks at the table still able to hurt him if he gets re-raised. His flop bet is also large enough that you should be pointing to the fold button.Call and see a flop, small ball it and fold to aggression. You really have to give the UTG raise some respect...Re-raising AIPF isn't really an option here as you are usually going to be flipping against overs (at worst) or drawing to two outs (which is what happened).