Documentary On Homosexuality And Religion

[Balloon guy 158]

Can I ask for clarification in a non-specific, cliff notes type summary?Is the following a correct summary of your (Lois, brv) beliefs on the subject? If not what is missing?

• We all sin. Whenever we <Enter sin here> we are commiting a sin.
• Sin cannot enter heaven.
• However Jesus died for our sins ie to forgive us our sins. (Not sure if forgive is the correct term. I toyed with 'washed away', 'removed' etc)
• We must beleive in Jesus for this to happen.
• Only the sins we are repentant of are forgiven.
• If we have any sins left that we are not repentant of, they are not forgiven and we cannot enter heaven.

<Enter sin here> can be replaced with any sin found in the Bible, be it murder, homosexuality or eating shellfish.

This is where you ere.Forgiveness of all our sins was accomplished by Christ's work, not ours.The repentance for all our sins at the time of convertion is the moment to receive forgivness for all our sins. It is the time repentance matters most.He didn't say you receive forgiveness, but from now on each and every sin must have your works to be included.So I am covered for all my faults, even the ones I haven't committed yet, because of what Christ did on the cross, 2,000 years ago.

[Balloon guy 158]

Alright, you wiley cunning fellow, I will bite. The thing is this, Braveheart and I might not agree completely here. He has a once saved, always outlook, I don't. I just don't think it matches biblically, yada yada yada. Basically, though, the blood of jesus cleanses us from our sins, we all get that, and initially you may not even know what ALL your sins may be, I would say no one does. You may have some things you know but you may know like 5%. (Arbitrary number but you get the point.) So, what you have said is correct but it's not that easy, and this is where faith comes in- God promises a striving christian time to deal basically, and the holy spirit reveals that which you need to work on/change as you are ready- faith comes into play there, but basically the thought is that for striving christian missing something should never be an issue. Now, for a non- striving christian, he says he will spew them out of his mouth- he takes the opposite stance when it comes to christians that don't work on themselves with there walk with God, which is why I tend to believe that you can be saved and still not make it to heaven, because God showed time and agin that he required effort on our part. And yes, it could literally be any sin. Homosexuality is not special in that regard, not in Gods eyes.

When Jesus told the guys "Begone, I never knew you" They claimed casting out of demons, preaching and performing miracles. But if Christ never knew them, they weren't saved.We're both kind of close to the same line of thinking in; faith/works/accountability/rigid legalism. I think I have beat myself up more than you and lean a lot more on Mercy and less on Justice as a result. But I get what you are saying

[speedz99 145]

So I am covered for all my faults, even the ones I haven't committed yet, because of what Christ did on the cross, 2,000 years ago.

So you're automatically going to heaven?

[rjkdb8 1]

That's not about disobedience either, that's about some idiot putting an Ox above Gods commandment- but, I digest.

He also didn't like Arbys, which makes him a douchebag. But I digest.

I am sure being pedantic is not the fastest way to ingratiate one’s self into a community with an established hierarchy, but for your own sake, please stop using “digest” like this.

[Loismustdie 0]

I am sure being pedantic is not the fastest way to ingratiate one’s self into a community with an established hierarchy, but for your own sake, please stop using “digest” like this.

It's a Family Guy reference, like my name, Loismustdie, so suck it, newb.

[rjkdb8 1]

It's a Family Guy reference, like my name, Loismustdie, so suck it, newb.

I stand corrected. My apologies.

[Loismustdie 0]

When Jesus told the guys "Begone, I never knew you" They claimed casting out of demons, preaching and performing miracles. But if Christ never knew them, they weren't saved.We're both kind of close to the same line of thinking in; faith/works/accountability/rigid legalism. I think I have beat myself up more than you and lean a lot more on Mercy and less on Justice as a result. But I get what you are saying

I like where you are going with that. Truth is I think it will be insanely alarming the amount of people who hear christ say that on judgement day.

[Loismustdie 0]

I stand corrected. My apologies.

No worries. Incidentally, "So suck it newb" is also a Family Guy reference. Maybe. Either way it's fun to say! I had sex today, and it was an awesome 7 minutes. Can't nobody bring me down.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

It's a Family Guy reference, like my name, Loismustdie, so suck it, newb.

every time you watch the Family Guy, the baby jesus cries.

[brvheart 1,752]

This is where you ere.Forgiveness of all our sins was accomplished by Christ's work, not ours.The repentance for all our sins at the time of convertion is the moment to receive forgivness for all our sins. It is the time repentance matters most.He didn't say you receive forgiveness, but from now on each and every sin must have your works to be included.So I am covered for all my faults, even the ones I haven't committed yet, because of what Christ did on the cross, 2,000 years ago.

Lois will disagree with you here.

I like where you are going with that. Truth is I think it will be insanely alarming the amount of people who hear christ say that on judgement day.

We all know this will be true. How many people in America claim to be a Christian right now that are still alive? The number that God will say that to, will probably be in the billions. (maybe tens of billions, depending on when Christ decides to come back)

every time you watch the Family Guy, the baby jesus cries.

This might be true.

[Loismustdie 0]

every time you watch the Family Guy, the baby jesus cries.

One of the only shows on TV that makes me laugh out loud. Genius in it's simplicity. I do like Robot Chicken as well.

[David_Nicoson 1]

You are being pretty pigheaded about this. Saying "Nobody can read that passage and then come to the conclusion that the bible condemns masturbation." is clearly false, because millions of people have and do interpret it that way.

Bullshit.Someone with an agenda told them it means that. It doesn't mean that. Nobody "interprets" it that way. Find someone who has never been exposed to the notion and they will never in a million years conclude that this passage tells them not to masturbate.

Perhaps you see it as clear that the masturbation interpretation is wrong, but that is your view, not the correct view.

This is like asking me to respect your opinion that cow means purple. How stupid would the bible's author(s) have to be to think this is the best way to convey "Don't masturbate" to generations of people? It's not as if Exodus and Leviticus shy away from detailed instructions.

There have been huge debates over interpreting the bible, just look at the Eucharist debate during the reformation.

Many of these debates are the result of people with political or social agendas using the bible as a tool for their agenda. Many of these debates are not honest attempts to ascertain the meaning of the text. I object to that and do not apologize for expressing my disdain for it.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Then maybe you shouldn't have titled your first book Origin of the Species

You have the title wrong.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

One of the only shows on TV that makes me laugh out loud. Genius in it's simplicity. I do like Robot Chicken as well.

[Dirtydutch 8]

I used to love FG, when I was in like 8th grade and it first came on. I really missed. Then Adult Swim put it back on, but frat douches ruined it for me. I've since tried to watch the new episodes and either the writing has taken a hit or I'm not 12 anymore. One or the other. Still, it had some hysterical moments."Urg. This commercial had to've been made by men.""Of course it was made by men, Lois. It's a commercial, not a delicious Thanksgiving dinner."Come on. Come on.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I used to love FG, when I was in like 8th grade and it first came on. I really missed. Then Adult Swim put it back on, but frat douches ruined it for me. I've since tried to watch the new episodes and either the writing has taken a hit or I'm not 12 anymore. One or the other. Still, it had some hysterical moments."Urg. This commercial had to've been made by men.""Of course it was made by men, Lois. It's a commercial, not a delicious Thanksgiving dinner."Come on. Come on.

that's all the show is about, moments. I think South Park gave a really valid and interesting critique of family guy.. the show is for people with really short attention spans, for better or worse.

[Balloon guy 158]

So you're automatically going to heaven?

[Balloon guy 158]

[Dirtydutch 8]

that's all the show is about, moments. I think South Park gave a really valid and interesting critique of family guy.. the show is for people with really short attention spans, for better or worse.

God I love South Park. The fact that Trey is so terminally disruptive that he felt obligated to attack and distance himself from such a juggernaut, essentially in the hight of its popularity, is another example of why why he's possibly our generation's greatest practitioner of Spite Artistry. Seth MacFarlane gave a speech to the Havard graduating class a couple years ago where he even defensively brought up the criticism, with which he essentially admitted he didn't care about anything but rapid-fire, easy, contextless zings in humor.

[KramitDaToad 0]

Alright, you wiley cunning fellow, I will bite. The thing is this, Braveheart and I might not agree completely here. He has a once saved, always outlook, I don't. I just don't think it matches biblically, yada yada yada. Basically, though, the blood of jesus cleanses us from our sins, we all get that, and initially you may not even know what ALL your sins may be, I would say no one does. You may have some things you know but you may know like 5%. (Arbitrary number but you get the point.) So, what you have said is correct but it's not that easy, and this is where faith comes in- God promises a striving christian time to deal basically, and the holy spirit reveals that which you need to work on/change as you are ready- faith comes into play there, but basically the thought is that for striving christian missing something should never be an issue. Now, for a non- striving christian, he says he will spew them out of his mouth- he takes the opposite stance when it comes to christians that don't work on themselves with there walk with God, which is why I tend to believe that you can be saved and still not make it to heaven, because God showed time and agin that he required effort on our part. And yes, it could literally be any sin. Homosexuality is not special in that regard, not in Gods eyes.

Thanks for that. Ok, how does this look then?

• We all sin. Whenever we <Enter sin here> we are commiting a sin.
• Sin cannot enter heaven.
• However Jesus died as 'payment' for our sins
• Once we believe in Jesus we receive the benefits of this 'payment' in that all our sins are forgiven - this is referred to as being saved
• After we are saved we will continue to sin. This is because we are human
• However if we continue to work with God to reduce our sinning, (and it is a given that we cannot completely stop sinning but it is the effort of trying to stop that counts) God will grant us time to reach a level of <?>
• Once we reach that level of <?> we can enter heaven
• If we don't work with God to reduce our sinning, despite being saved we are denied heaven

I know you've answered this all over the forum, but it's always been fractured and shifts with context. What would be good is to have a clear explanation of what your definintion of salvation is, somewhat like BG asking for a clear definition of evolution. Obviously you, BG and brv have individual defintions, theirs seem to stop around point 4, but yours is more detailed.Now I'm not sure what to put in place of <?>. Perhaps understanding, or piety. Maybe you have a better word? <Enter sin here> can be replaced with any sin found in the Bible. This leads to a question that Checky keeps asking but doesn't seem to get answered. What acts/thoughts are considered to be a sin?Is it just those that Jesus describes, or does it include those in Pauls letters as well or is it everything in the Bible, Old and New testaments?I know checky that this is a bastardisation & dumbing-down of your question, but I think you can see the commonality.

You may have to give it up...even though I'm curious about the answer to your question as well.

Oh ye of little faith.And just to keep the whole gay theme of the OP going, a timely news article: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ga...0,6182317.story

[brvheart 1,752]

Alright, you wiley cunning fellow, I will bite. The thing is this, Braveheart and I might not agree completely here. He has a once saved, always outlook, I don't. I just don't think it matches biblically, yada yada yada. Basically, though, the blood of jesus cleanses us from our sins, we all get that, and initially you may not even know what ALL your sins may be, I would say no one does. You may have some things you know but you may know like 5%. (Arbitrary number but you get the point.) So, what you have said is correct but it's not that easy, and this is where faith comes in- God promises a striving christian time to deal basically, and the holy spirit reveals that which you need to work on/change as you are ready- faith comes into play there, but basically the thought is that for striving christian missing something should never be an issue. Now, for a non- striving christian, he says he will spew them out of his mouth- he takes the opposite stance when it comes to christians that don't work on themselves with there walk with God, which is why I tend to believe that you can be saved and still not make it to heaven, because God showed time and agin that he required effort on our part. And yes, it could literally be any sin. Homosexuality is not special in that regard, not in Gods eyes.

I know by discussing this post I'm indirectly answering Toad's question which makes me sad, but if he isn't a huge a-hole, maybe I can forgive myself. Lois is correct, we will strongly disagree on this topic. (But actually probably only on Articles 8,9,10, and 11) This is what I believe:Core Beliefs * the Trinity * the full deity and humanity of Christ * the spiritual lostness of the human race * the substitutionary atonement and bodily resurrection of Christ * salvation by faith alone in Christ alone * the physical return of Christ * the authority and inerrancy of Scripture.Full Doctrinal StatementArticle I—THE SCRIPTURESWe believe that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God,” by which we understand the whole Bible is inspired in the sense that holy men of God “were moved by the Holy Spirit” to write the very words of Scripture. We believe that this divine inspiration extends equally and fully to all parts of the writings—historical, poetical, doctrinal, and prophetical—as appeared in the original manuscripts. We believe that the whole Bible in the originals is therefore without error. We believe that all the Scriptures center about the Lord Jesus Christ in His person and work in His first and second coming, and hence that no portion, even of the Old Testament, is properly read, or understood, until it leads to Him. We also believe that all the Scriptures were designed for our practical instruction (Mark 12:26, 36; 13:11; Luke 24:27, 44; John 5:39; Acts 1:16; 17:2–3; 18:28; 26:22–23; 28:23; Rom. 15:4; 1 Cor. 2:13; 10:11; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:21).Article II—THE GODHEADWe believe that the Godhead eternally exists in three persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—and that these three are one God, having precisely the same nature, attributes, and perfections, and worthy of precisely the same homage, confidence, and obedience (Matt. 28:18–19; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3–4; 2 Cor. 13:14; Heb. 1:1–3; Rev. 1:4–6).Article III—ANGELS, FALLEN AND UNFALLENWe believe that God created an innumerable company of sinless, spiritual beings, known as angels; that one, “Lucifer, son of the morning”—the highest in rank—sinned through pride, thereby becoming Satan; that a great company of the angels followed him in his moral fall, some of whom became demons and are active as his agents and associates in the prosecution of his unholy purposes, while others who fell are “reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day” (Isa. 14:12–17; Ezek. 28:11–19; 1 Tim. 3:6; 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6).We believe that Satan is the originator of sin, and that, under the permission of God, he, through subtlety, led our first parents into transgression, thereby accomplishing their moral fall and subjecting them and their posterity to his own power; that he is the enemy of God and the people of God, opposing and exalting himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped; and that he who in the beginning said, “I will be like the most High,” in his warfare appears as an angel of light, even counterfeiting the works of God by fostering religious movements and systems of doctrine, which systems in every case are characterized by a denial of the efficacy of the blood of Christ and of salvation by grace alone (Gen. 3:1–19; Rom. 5:12–14; 2 Cor. 4:3–4; 11:13–15; Eph. 6:10–12; 2 Thess. 2:4; 1 Tim. 4:1–3). We believe that Satan was judged at the Cross, though not then executed, and that he, a usurper, now rules as the “god of this world”; that, at the second coming of Christ, Satan will be bound and cast into the abyss for a thousand years, and after the thousand years he will be loosed for a little season and then “cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,” where he “shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever” (Col. 2:15; Rev. 20:1–3, 10). We believe that a great company of angels kept their holy estate and are before the throne of God, from whence they are sent forth as ministering spirits to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation (Luke 15:10; Eph. 1:21; Heb. 1:14; Rev. 7:12). We believe that man was made lower than the angels; and that, in His incarnation, Christ took for a little time this lower place that He might lift the believer to His own sphere above the angels (Heb. 2:6–10).Article IV—MAN, CREATED AND FALLENWe believe that man was originally created in the image and after the likeness of God, and that he fell through sin, and, as a consequence of his sin, lost his spiritual life, becoming dead in trespasses and sins, and that he became subject to the power of the devil. We also believe that this spiritual death, or total depravity of human nature, has been transmitted to the entire human race of man, the Man Christ Jesus alone being excepted; and hence that every child of Adam is born into the world with a nature which not only possesses no spark of divine life, but is essentially and unchangeably bad apart from divine grace (Gen. 1:26; 2:17; 6:5; Pss. 14:1–3; 51:5; Jer. 17:9; John 3:6; 5:40; 6:35; Rom. 3:10–19; 8:6–7; Eph. 2:1–3; 1 Tim. 5:6; 1 John 3:8).Article V—THE DISPENSATIONSWe believe that the dispensations are stewardships by which God administers His purpose on the earth through man under varying responsibilities. We believe that the changes in the dispensational dealings of God with man depend on changed conditions or situations in which man is successively found with relation to God, and that these changes are the result of the failures of man and the judgments of God. We believe that different administrative responsibilities of this character are manifest in the biblical record, that they span the entire history of mankind, and that each ends in the failure of man under the respective test and in an ensuing judgment from God. We believe that three of these dispensations or rules of life are the subject of extended revelation in the Scriptures, viz., the dispensation of the Mosaic Law, the present dispensation of grace, and the future dispensation of the millennial kingdom. We believe that these are distinct and are not to be intermingled or confused, as they are chronologically successive.We believe that the dispensations are not ways of salvation nor different methods of administering the so-called Covenant of Grace. They are not in themselves dependent on covenant relationships but are ways of life and responsibility to God which test the submission of man to His revealed will during a particular time. We believe that if man does trust in his own efforts to gain the favor of God or salvation under any dispensational test, because of inherent sin his failure to satisfy fully the just requirements of God is inevitable and his condemnation sure.We believe that according to the “eternal purpose” of God (Eph. 3:11) salvation in the divine reckoning is always “by grace through faith,” and rests upon the basis of the shed blood of Christ. We believe that God has always been gracious, regardless of the ruling dispensation, but that man has not at all times been under an administration or stewardship of grace as is true in the present dispensation (1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 3:2; 3:9, asv; Col. 1:25; 1 Tim. 1:4, asv).We believe that it has always been true that “without faith it is impossible to please” God (Heb. 11:6), and that the principle of faith was prevalent in the lives of all the Old Testament saints. However, we believe that it was historically impossible that they should have had as the conscious object of their faith the incarnate, crucified Son, the Lamb of God (John 1:29), and that it is evident that they did not comprehend as we do that the sacrifices depicted the person and work of Christ. We believe also that they did not understand the redemptive significance of the prophecies or types concerning the sufferings of Christ (1 Pet. 1:10–12); therefore, we believe that their faith toward God was manifested in other ways as is shown by the long record in Hebrews 11:1–40. We believe further that their faith thus manifested was counted unto them for righteousness (cf. Rom. 4:3 with Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:5–8; Heb. 11:7).Article VI—THE FIRST ADVENTWe believe that, as provided and purposed by God and as preannounced in the prophecies of the Scriptures, the eternal Son of God came into this world that He might manifest God to men, fulfill prophecy, and become the Redeemer of a lost world. To this end He was born of the virgin, and received a human body and a sinless human nature (Luke 1:30–35; John 1:18; 3:16; Heb. 4:15).We believe that, on the human side, He became and remained a perfect man, but sinless throughout His life; yet He retained His absolute deity, being at the same time very God and very man, and that His earth-life sometimes functioned within the sphere of that which was human and sometimes within the sphere of that which was divine (Luke 2:40; John 1:1–2; Phil. 2:5–8).We believe that in fulfillment of prophecy He came first to Israel as her Messiah-King, and that, being rejected of that nation, He, according to the eternal counsels of God, gave His life as a ransom for all (John 1:11; Acts 2:22–24; 1 Tim. 2:6).We believe that, in infinite love for the lost, He voluntarily accepted His Father’s will and became the divinely provided sacrificial Lamb and took away the sin of the world, bearing the holy judgments against sin which the righteousness of God must impose. His death was therefore substitutionary in the most absolute sense—the just for the unjust—and by His death He became the Savior of the lost (John 1:29; Rom. 3:25–26; 2 Cor. 5:14; Heb. 10:5–14; 1 Pet. 3:18).We believe that, according to the Scriptures, He arose from the dead in the same body, though glorified, in which He had lived and died, and that His resurrection body is the pattern of that body which ultimately will be given to all believers (John 20:20; Phil. 3:20–21).We believe that, on departing from the earth, He was accepted of His Father and that His acceptance is a final assurance to us that His redeeming work was perfectly accomplished (Heb. 1:3).We believe that He became Head over all things to the church which is His body, and in this ministry He ceases not to intercede and advocate for the saved (Eph. 1:22–23; Heb. 7:25; 1 John 2:1).Article VII—SALVATION ONLY THROUGH CHRISTWe believe that, owing to universal death through sin, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless born again; and that no degree of reformation however great, no attainments in morality however high, no culture however attractive, no baptism or other ordinance however administered, can help the sinner to take even one step toward heaven; but a new nature imparted from above, a new life implanted by the Holy Spirit through the Word, is absolutely essential to salvation, and only those thus saved are sons of God. We believe, also, that our redemption has been accomplished solely by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, who was made to be sin and was made a curse for us, dying in our room and stead; and that no repentance, no feeling, no faith, no good resolutions, no sincere efforts, no submission to the rules and regulations of any church, nor all the churches that have existed since the days of the Apostles can add in the very least degree to the value of the blood, or to the merit of the finished work wrought for us by Him who united in His person true and proper deity with perfect and sinless humanity (Lev. 17:11; Isa. 64:6; Matt. 26:28; John 3:7–18; Rom. 5:6–9; 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 3:13; 6:15; Eph. 1:7; Phil. 3:4–9; Titus 3:5; James 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:18–19, 23).We believe that the new birth of the believer comes only through faith in Christ and that repentance is a vital part of believing, and is in no way, in itself, a separate and independent condition of salvation; nor are any other acts, such as confession, baptism, prayer, or faithful service, to be added to believing as a condition of salvation (John 1:12; 3:16, 18, 36; 5:24; 6:29; Acts 13:39; 16:31; Rom. 1:16–17; 3:22, 26; 4:5; 10:4; Gal. 3:22).Article VIII—THE EXTENT OF SALVATIONWe believe that when an unregenerate person exercises that faith in Christ which is illustrated and described as such in the New Testament, he passes immediately out of spiritual death into spiritual life, and from the old creation into the new; being justified from all things, accepted before the Father according as Christ His Son is accepted, loved as Christ is loved, having his place and portion as linked to Him and one with Him forever. Though the saved one may have occasion to grow in the realization of his blessings and to know a fuller measure of divine power through the yielding of his life more fully to God, he is, as soon as he is saved, in possession of every spiritual blessing and absolutely complete in Christ, and is therefore in no way required by God to seek a so-called “second blessing,” or a “second work of grace” (John 5:24; 17:23; Acts 13:39; Rom. 5:1; 1 Cor. 3:21–23; Eph. 1:3; Col. 2:10; 1 John 4:17; 5:11–12).Article IX—SANCTIFICATIONWe believe that sanctification, which is a setting-apart unto God, is threefold: It is already complete for every saved person because his position toward God is the same as Christ’s position. Since the believer is in Christ, he is set apart unto God in the measure in which Christ is set apart unto God. We believe, however, that he retains his sin nature, which cannot be eradicated in this life. Therefore, while the standing of the Christian in Christ is perfect, his present state is no more perfect than his experience in daily life. There is, therefore, a progressive sanctification wherein the Christian is to “grow in grace,” and to “be changed” by the unhindered power of the Spirit. We believe also that the child of God will yet be fully sanctified in his state as he is now sanctified in his standing in Christ when he shall see his Lord and shall be “like Him” (John 17:17; 2 Cor. 3:18; 7:1; Eph. 4:24; 5:25–27; 1 Thess. 5:23; Heb. 10:10, 14; 12:10).Article X—ETERNAL SECURITYWe believe that, because of the eternal purpose of God toward the objects of His love, because of His freedom to exercise grace toward the meritless on the ground of the propitiatory blood of Christ, because of the very nature of the divine gift of eternal life, because of the present and unending intercession and advocacy of Christ in heaven, because of the immutability of the unchangeable covenants of God, because of the regenerating, abiding presence of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of all who are saved, we and all true believers everywhere, once saved shall be kept saved forever. We believe, however, that God is a holy and righteous Father and that, since He cannot overlook the sin of His children, He will, when they persistently sin, chasten them and correct them in infinite love; but having undertaken to save them and keep them forever, apart from all human merit, He, who cannot fail, will in the end present every one of them faultless before the presence of His glory and conformed to the image of His Son (John 5:24; 10:28; 13:1; 14:16–17; 17:11; Rom. 8:29; 1 Cor. 6:19; Heb. 7:25; 1 John 2:1–2; 5:13; Jude 24).Article XI—ASSURANCEWe believe it is the privilege, not only of some, but of all who are born again by the Spirit through faith in Christ as revealed in the Scriptures, to be assured of their salvation from the very day they take Him to be their Savior and that this assurance is not founded upon any fancied discovery of their own worthiness or fitness, but wholly upon the testimony of God in His written Word, exciting within His children filial love, gratitude, and obedience (Luke 10:20; 22:32; 2 Cor. 5:1, 6–8; 2 Tim. 1:12; Heb. 10:22; 1 John 5:13).Article XII—THE HOLY SPIRITWe believe that the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the blessed Trinity, though omnipresent from all eternity, took up His abode in the world in a special sense on the day of Pentecost according to the divine promise, dwells in every believer, and by His baptism unites all to Christ in one body, and that He, as the Indwelling One, is the source of all power and all acceptable worship and service. We believe that He never takes His departure from the church, nor from the feeblest of the saints, but is ever present to testify of Christ; seeking to occupy believers with Him and not with themselves nor with their experiences. We believe that His abode in the world in this special sense will cease when Christ comes to receive His own at the completion of the church (John 14:16–17; 16:7–15; 1 Cor. 6:19; Eph. 2:22; 2 Thess. 2:7).We believe that, in this age, certain well-defined ministries are committed to the Holy Spirit, and that it is the duty of every Christian to understand them and to be adjusted to them in his own life and experience. These ministries are the restraining of evil in the world to the measure of the divine will; the convicting of the world respecting sin, righteousness, and judgment; the regenerating of all believers; the indwelling and anointing of all who are saved, thereby sealing them unto the day of redemption; the baptizing into the one body of Christ of all who are saved; and the continued filling for power, teaching, and service of those among the saved who are yielded to Him and who are subject to His will (John 3:6; 16:7–11; Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 4:30; 5:18; 2 Thess. 2:7; 1 John 2:20–27).We believe that some gifts of the Holy Spirit such as speaking in tongues and miraculous healings were temporary. We believe that speaking in tongues was never the common or necessary sign of the baptism nor of the filling of the Spirit, and that the deliverance of the body from sickness or death awaits the consummation of our salvation in the resurrection (Acts 4:8, 31; Rom. 8:23; 1 Cor. 13:8).Article XIII—THE CHURCH, A UNITY OF BELIEVERSWe believe that all who are united to the risen and ascended Son of God are members of the church which is the body and bride of Christ, which began at Pentecost and is completely distinct from Israel. Its members are constituted as such regardless of membership or nonmembership in the organized churches of earth. We believe that by the same Spirit all believers in this age are baptized into, and thus become, one body that is Christ’s, whether Jews or Gentiles, and having become members one of another, are under solemn duty to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, rising above all sectarian differences, and loving one another with a pure heart fervently (Matt. 16:16–18; Acts 2:42–47; Rom. 12:5; 1 Cor. 12:12–27; Eph. 1:20–23; 4:3–10; Col. 3:14–15).Article XIV—THE SACRAMENTS OR ORDINANCESWe believe that water baptism and the Lord’s Supper are the only sacraments and ordinances of the church and that they are a scriptural means of testimony for the church in this age (Matt. 28:19; Luke 22:19–20; Acts 10:47–48; 16:32–33; 18:7–8; 1 Cor. 11:26).Article XV—THE CHRISTIAN WALKWe believe that we are called with a holy calling, to walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, and so to live in the power of the indwelling Spirit that we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. But the flesh with its fallen, Adamic nature, which in this life is never eradicated, being with us to the end of our earthly pilgrimage, needs to be kept by the Spirit constantly in subjection to Christ, or it will surely manifest its presence in our lives to the dishonor of our Lord (Rom. 6:11–13; 8:2, 4, 12–13; Gal. 5:16–23; Eph. 4:22–24; Col. 2:1–10; 1 Pet. 1:14–16; 1 John 1:4–7; 3:5–9).Article XVI—THE CHRISTIAN’S SERVICEWe believe that divine, enabling gifts for service are bestowed by the Spirit upon all who are saved. While there is a diversity of gifts, each believer is energized by the same Spirit, and each is called to his own divinely appointed service as the Spirit may will. In the apostolic church there were certain gifted men—apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers—who were appointed by God for the perfecting of the saints unto their work of the ministry. We believe also that today some men are especially called of God to be evangelists, pastors and teachers, and that it is to the fulfilling of His will and to His eternal glory that these shall be sustained and encouraged in their service for God (Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 12:4–11; Eph. 4:11).We believe that, wholly apart from salvation benefits which are bestowed equally upon all who believe, rewards are promised according to the faithfulness of each believer in his service for his Lord, and that these rewards will be bestowed at the judgment seat of Christ after He comes to receive His own to Himself (1 Cor. 3:9–15; 9:18–27; 2 Cor. 5:10).Article XVII—THE GREAT COMMISSIONWe believe that it is the explicit message of our Lord Jesus Christ to those whom He has saved that they are sent forth by Him into the world even as He was sent forth of His Father into the world. We believe that, after they are saved, they are divinely reckoned to be related to this world as strangers and pilgrims, ambassadors and witnesses, and that their primary purpose in life should be to make Christ known to the whole world (Matt. 28:18–19; Mark 16:15; John 17:18; Acts 1:8; 2 Cor. 5:18–20; 1 Pet. 1:17; 2:11).Article XVIII—THE BLESSED HOPEWe believe that, according to the Word of God, the next great event in the fulfillment of prophecy will be the coming of the Lord in the air to receive to Himself into heaven both His own who are alive and remain unto His coming, and also all who have fallen asleep in Jesus, and that this event is the blessed hope set before us in the Scripture, and for this we should be constantly looking (John 14:1–3; 1 Cor. 15:51–52; Phil. 3:20; 1 Thess. 4:13–18; Titus 2:11–14).Article XIX—THE TRIBULATIONWe believe that the translation of the church will be followed by the fulfillment of Israel’s seventieth week (Dan. 9:27; Rev. 6:1–19:21) during which the church, the body of Christ, will be in heaven. The whole period of Israel’s seventieth week will be a time of judgment on the whole earth, at the end of which the times of the Gentiles will be brought to a close. The latter half of this period will be the time of Jacob’s trouble (Jer. 30:7), which our Lord called the great tribulation (Matt. 24:15–21). We believe that universal righteousness will not be realized previous to the second coming of Christ, but that the world is day by day ripening for judgment and that the age will end with a fearful apostasy.Article XX—THE SECOND COMING OF CHRISTWe believe that the period of great tribulation in the earth will be climaxed by the return of the Lord Jesus Christ to the earth as He went, in person on the clouds of heaven, and with power and great glory to introduce the millennial age, to bind Satan and place him in the abyss, to lift the curse which now rests upon the whole creation, to restore Israel to her own land and to give her the realization of God’s covenant promises, and to bring the whole world to the knowledge of God (Deut. 30:1–10; Isa. 11:9; Ezek. 37:21–28; Matt. 24:15–25:46; Acts 15:16–17; Rom. 8:19–23; 11:25–27; 1 Tim. 4:1–3; 2 Tim. 3:1–5; Rev. 20:1–3).Article XXI—THE ETERNAL STATEWe believe that at death the spirits and souls of those who have trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation pass immediately into His presence and there remain in conscious bliss until the resurrection of the glorified body when Christ comes for His own, whereupon soul and body reunited shall be associated with Him forever in glory; but the spirits and souls of the unbelieving remain after death conscious of condemnation and in misery until the final judgment of the great white throne at the close of the millennium, when soul and body reunited shall be cast into the lake of fire, not to be annihilated, but to be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power (Luke 16:19–26; 23:42; 2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23; 2 Thess. 1:7–9; Jude 6–7; Rev. 20:11–15).

[Loismustdie 0]

Thanks for that. Ok, how does this look then?

• We all sin. Whenever we <Enter sin here> we are commiting a sin.
• Sin cannot enter heaven.
• However Jesus died as 'payment' for our sins
• Once we believe in Jesus we receive the benefits of this 'payment' in that all our sins are forgiven - this is referred to as being saved
• After we are saved we will continue to sin. This is because we are human
• However if we continue to work with God to reduce our sinning, (and it is a given that we cannot completely stop sinning but it is the effort of trying to stop that counts) God will grant us time to reach a level of <?>
• Once we reach that level of <?> we can enter heaven
• If we don't work with God to reduce our sinning, despite being saved we are denied heaven

I know you've answered this all over the forum, but it's always been fractured and shifts with context. What would be good is to have a clear explanation of what your definintion of salvation is, somewhat like BG asking for a clear definition of evolution. Obviously you, BG and brv have individual defintions, theirs seem to stop around point 4, but yours is more detailed.Now I'm not sure what to put in place of <?>. Perhaps understanding, or piety. Maybe you have a better word? <Enter sin here> can be replaced with any sin found in the Bible. This leads to a question that Checky keeps asking but doesn't seem to get answered. What acts/thoughts are considered to be a sin?Is it just those that Jesus describes, or does it include those in Pauls letters as well or is it everything in the Bible, Old and New testaments?I know checky that this is a bastardisation & dumbing-down of your question, but I think you can see the commonality.Oh ye of little faith.And just to keep the whole gay theme of the OP going, a timely news article: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ga...0,6182317.story

Sin is a breaking of Gods law. Gods law is strewn about throughout the bible- it would include Old and New (as long as what is changed in the new is allowed for) and would indeed include Pauls letters, although alot of Pauls letters are just sound judgement that you can back up with other scripture. Without getting into it to much I believe that Braveheart is wrong mostly because God addressed the idea of being "unsaved" if you will pretty directly. The passage about a christian being lukewarm spewed out of Gods mouth comes to mind- that doesn't sound like "once saved always saved" that sounds as if God has limits, he also talks of, in various scriptures dying on the vine, parables speaking of christians who are not walking the walk- it's reffering to spiritual death, which would be silly to mention if it wasn't possible. As far as what ? is, good question. Nobody knows, only God- the theory is that if your still alive there is still work to be done. For one person it could be a life of sin, and then towards the end of his life he repents, comes to christ, a day later he is dead. His walk required only that, but for that person that may be the hardest thing that has ever occurred in his life. For another, it may be 60 years of service, starting churches, etc., and then he reaches the point where God says it is time to enter, and takes him home. ? has no time constraints and would be different for everyone.

[brvheart 1,752]

Sin is a breaking of Gods law. Gods law is strewn about throughout the bible- it would include Old and New (as long as what is changed in the new is allowed for) and would indeed include Pauls letters, although alot of Pauls letters are just sound judgement that you can back up with other scripture. Without getting into it to much I believe that Braveheart is wrong mostly because God addressed the idea of being "unsaved" if you will pretty directly. The passage about a christian being lukewarm spewed out of Gods mouth comes to mind- that doesn't sound like "once saved always saved" that sounds as if God has limits, he also talks of, in various scriptures dying on the vine, parables speaking of christians who are not walking the walk- it's reffering to spiritual death, which would be silly to mention if it wasn't possible. As far as what ? is, good question. Nobody knows, only God- the theory is that if your still alive there is still work to be done. For one person it could be a life of sin, and then towards the end of his life he repents, comes to christ, a day later he is dead. His walk required only that, but for that person that may be the hardest thing that has ever occurred in his life. For another, it may be 60 years of service, starting churches, etc., and then he reaches the point where God says it is time to enter, and takes him home. ? has no time constraints and would be different for everyone.

Lois do you agree with everything in my post, other than Articles 8, 9, 10 and 11?

[brvheart 1,752]

Sin is a breaking of Gods law. Gods law is strewn about throughout the bible- it would include Old and New (as long as what is changed in the new is allowed for) and would indeed include Pauls letters, although alot of Pauls letters are just sound judgement that you can back up with other scripture. Without getting into it to much I believe that Braveheart is wrong mostly because God addressed the idea of being "unsaved" if you will pretty directly. The passage about a christian being lukewarm spewed out of Gods mouth comes to mind- that doesn't sound like "once saved always saved" that sounds as if God has limits, he also talks of, in various scriptures dying on the vine, parables speaking of christians who are not walking the walk- it's reffering to spiritual death, which would be silly to mention if it wasn't possible. As far as what ? is, good question. Nobody knows, only God- the theory is that if your still alive there is still work to be done. For one person it could be a life of sin, and then towards the end of his life he repents, comes to christ, a day later he is dead. His walk required only that, but for that person that may be the hardest thing that has ever occurred in his life. For another, it may be 60 years of service, starting churches, etc., and then he reaches the point where God says it is time to enter, and takes him home. ? has no time constraints and would be different for everyone.

While I understand why you interpret the passages this way, I want you explain my view and hopefully you will see my point of view also.

14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: 15'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that (BD)the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. 20'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"

Surely you don't believe that every member of this church was saved? You would NEVER think that today. Why would it be different here? I believe what God is saying here that people were finding "riches" in worldly things and not in God. They didn't even notice that they were naked and alone. This sounds EXACTLY like today's church.. if you ask me. People didn't/don't care about God... but he was/is still there... at the door... waiting patiently for people to respond to him and be saved.2nd... about the vine passage. "apart from God you can do nothing". If a person isn't living for God then he/she will produce no fruit. We both agree on this. I just don't think it's referring to salvation. (since it doesn't mention salvation)6. If any one abide not in me. He again lays before them the punishment of ingratitude, and, by doing so, excites and urges them to perseverance. It is indeed the gift of God, but the exhortation to fear is not uncalled for, lest our flesh, through too great indulgence, should root us out."He is cast out, and withered, like a branch. Those who are cut off from Christ are said to wither like a dead branch; because, as the commencement of strength is from him, so also is its uninterrupted continuance. Not that it ever happens that any one of the elect is dried up, but because there are many hypocrites who, in outward appearance, flourish and are green for a time, but who afterwards, when they ought to yield fruit, show the very opposite of that which the Lord expects and demands from his people."

[speedz99 145]

Someone with an agenda told them it means that. It doesn't mean that. Nobody "interprets" it that way. Find someone who has never been exposed to the notion and they will never in a million years conclude that this passage tells them not to masturbate. This is like asking me to respect your opinion that cow means purple. How stupid would the bible's author(s) have to be to think this is the best way to convey "Don't masturbate" to generations of people? It's not as if Exodus and Leviticus shy away from detailed instructions.

I'm sorry, but are you arguing that the bible is perfectly clear in all its instructions? As for that passage in particular, it's kind of funny that you're so fired up about there being no chance in hell that "spilling seed" could be construed as beating off as opposed to pulling out. Of course it can be taken that way (even if it's a stretch) without it necessarily being an agenda thing. You're being pretty thick-headed about this one. And this is coming from someone who strongly prefers your interpretation (now that I've heard and understand it).

God I love South Park. The fact that Trey is so terminally disruptive that he felt obligated to attack and distance himself from such a juggernaut, essentially in the hight of its popularity, is another example of why why he's possibly our generation's greatest practitioner of Spite Artistry. Seth MacFarlane gave a speech to the Havard graduating class a couple years ago where he even defensively brought up the criticism, with which he essentially admitted he didn't care about anything but rapid-fire, easy, contextless zings in humor.

I love South Park...the only problem I had with that episode was that some people thought it was some kind of revalation. Family Guy uses humor that has nothing to do with anything? Yeah, no shit.

And just to keep the whole gay theme of the OP going, a timely news article: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ga...0,6182317.story

Damn Californian sinners.

Core Beliefs * the Trinity * the full deity and humanity of Christ * the spiritual lostness of the human race * the substitutionary atonement and bodily resurrection of Christ * salvation by faith alone in Christ alone * the physical return of Christ * the authority and inerrancy of Scripture.

I find it disturbing that God is nowhere in this. I know that Christ is supposed to be God in human form (or however you say it), but still...it's interesting. That guy, crazy as he may have been (though a seemingly nice guy), sure took cult/religion leadership to an incredible level.