The Hi-lo(w) Content Thread

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

I'm probably just raising the flop because I don't want another diamond taking my high half. Make them pay for it.

ahh but what kind of hand can I put UTG on when leading out on this flop and the CO flats behind? (and I got the BB to put in one more so if I'm getting 1/4ed)

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

I am starting to think, though, that the best way to be profitable at the limits I play is a more disciplined, ABC style. This doesn't mean nut-peddling, just disciplined and straightforward. These are tables full of people who play with VPIP's of 50 and PFR's of 0. Fancy plays work just about as well at these tables as they do at $1.20 NLHE SnGs.

.10/.20 FL (full ring) I built up my roll by doing nothing more than betting big draws agg. and nut-peddling. It's boring, but it works. I did it for like 3-4 months str8. It is profitable

[jmbreslin 0]

ahh but what kind of hand can I put UTG on when leading out on this flop and the CO flats behind? (and I got the BB to put in one more so if I'm getting 1/4ed)

AA is right up UTG's alley and CO could be on something like A3 with a good diamond draw. Right now you have a lock low and the current nuts, so don't you want to charge sets and flush draws to try to take your high half? And the risk of letting BB put in another bet is that you could be letting in another hand that could outdraw you (say he has two mediocre diamonds and is the only flush draw out there - he may fold his draw to a raise). If you're on a bare nut low then I can understand keeping the pot multi-way (and smaller) in case you get quartered. But since you also have the current nut high, don't you want to protect it?

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

AA is right up UTG's alley and CO could be on something like A3 with a good diamond draw. Right now you have a lock low and the current nuts, so don't you want to charge sets and flush draws to try to take your high half? And the risk of letting BB put in another bet is that you could be letting in another hand that could outdraw you (say he has two mediocre diamonds and is the only flush draw out there - he may fold his draw to a raise). If you're on a bare nut low then I can understand keeping the pot multi-way (and smaller) in case you get quartered. But since you also have the current nut high, don't you want to protect it?

yes, I've been back and forth with this one prob should've posted it by itself. (WA/WB situation? in a sort of kind of way) I don't know the way it worked out I think I got about as much value out of it as possible. I raise and everyone folds that kind of sux too? or I raise and get called by wheel/flush draw and no one else

[jmbreslin 0]

on a side note...over on 2+2 in the omaha8 forum none other than ray zee himself has just put in his input into a couple of threads regarding plo8. the couple of sentences he wrote are probably worth paying for to read. just a little heads up.

Having trouble locating these posts - which threads specifically?

[antistuff 0]

Having trouble locating these posts - which threads specifically?

the one about three betting preflop and there were two others i can't remember. just look up his username and check recent posts.

[Cappy37 0]

do you really need to call that river?

I do. Low missed, I'm only losing to a full house or the backdoor spade madness. With the pot odds, and the chance he's firing a missed low or missed straight. Yes, his turn actions make a spade flush certainly a good possibility, but folding that river is beyond weak and will cost you money in the long run. I got trip 4s without a decent kicker, but I'll beat AAxx and everything else I mentioned above.

anyone like this line?PokerStars 1/2 Omaha/8 (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Preflop: Hero is Button with 5 , 3 , A , 4 . UTG raises, 1 fold, CO calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB calls.Flop: (8.50 SB) 2 , A , 4 (4 players)BB checks, UTG bets, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.Turn: (6.25 BB) 6 (4 players)BB checks, UTG bets, CO calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls, CO calls.River: (12.25 BB) 8 (3 players)UTG checks, CO checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, CO folds.Final Pot: 14.25 BBResults in white below: UTG has Ah As 5s 4h (Low: 6, 5, 4, 2, A | High: three of a kind, aces). Hero has 5h 3h Ac 4d (Low: 5, 4, 3, 2, A | High: straight, six high). Outcome: Hero wins 14.25 BB.

Keeping that many in the pot on the flop is a good thing considering you were bet into. A raise might thin the field, something you don't want when you got the nuts. Even if you are splitting the nuts, you want as much dead money as possible.You also don't fold diamonds out on that flop, and you *need* to raise the turn to make a diamond draw pay the absolute max, possibly even fear being capped, so you played the turn *real* well in my opinion;. And obviously, firing the river when checked to is a complete no brainer.I like it on all streets. You get the gold star, timmy!

[Cappy37 0]

You're never going to convince me that playing that hand from UTG is +ev. It's not half-assed, it's whole-assed. He basically hit his one-in-a-million chance of that hand turning into a winning hand in a multi-way pot. 99% of the time that hand is going to hit a high that will lose to a better high and/or end up splitting with a low hand. I'm all for mixing it up now and then with the kind of implied odds hand you're talking about, but playing this particular hand from UTG is downright terrible.

I agreed with that setiment in my post already. I was talking concepts: playing high cards *or* straightening cards from EP for a limp has some great implied value. He had some straightening cards and a king in that example, which isn't great implied value. He had the right idea, but a hand to weak to implement it: remember, if you have say 5689 w/ 2 diamonds, and the flop is Q67 with 2 diamonds, you aren't in as bad a shape as you think: you have a ton of straight outs, and you have 2 blockers against the flush. A non-diamond 4,5,8,9,T gives you a great hand for playing lows against each other,and charging anyone with diamonds a huge price knowing you have some serious diamond blockers.In that same example, if you have KQJ9, you can get away from that flop pretty easily. That's where your good disicipline allows you to avoid the negative freeroll.

[Cappy37 0]

Cappy, I appreciate you taking the time to help me better my game. Same goes for the other 2 or 3 guys who frequent this forum. You make an interesting point about different styles - what I've noticed is that when I try to hard to adopt the styles that other people are advocating in the strat threads, I run into trouble. Drunken monkey is not a natural fit for me but what I'd like to do is figure out how to use what I learn about your styles and strategies to improve mine.I am starting to think, though, that the best way to be profitable at the limits I play is a more disciplined, ABC style. This doesn't mean nut-peddling, just disciplined and straightforward. These are tables full of people who play with VPIP's of 50 and PFR's of 0. Fancy plays work just about as well at these tables as they do at $1.20 NLHE SnGs.I plan to experiment with FLO8 a bit longer but will most likely return to PLO8. I ended up salvaging last night's session with a small win thanks to a couple of big pots on one table near the end, but to be honest I didn't much enjoy the hour or so I played up to that point.

That's what we're here for, to convert people to the dark side.Now take the next step: they recently opened .10/.20 and .25/.50 HORSE tables on Stars. You can dooooo it!

[jmbreslin 0]

Keeping that many in the pot on the flop is a good thing considering you were bet into. A raise might thin the field, something you don't want when you got the nuts.

Even when your nut high is vulnerable?

You also don't fold diamonds out on that flop, and you *need* to raise the turn to make a diamond draw pay the absolute max, possibly even fear being capped, so you played the turn *real* well in my opinion;.

Is this a FL vs PL strategy? That is, waiting until the turn to raise when you can charge a higher price instead of raising the flop?

[Cappy37 0]

Even when your nut high is vulnerable?

Your nut high is vulnerable, your nut low is uncounterfeitable. Once you've created a large field by being passive on the flop, you now have a guaranteed 1/4 or better of a large pot no matter what card comes on the river. The fact that a diamond didn't come on the turn makes your hand that much stronger,and we will bet and raise no matter the action is coming towards us. Damn the torpedos!

Is this a FL vs PL strategy? That is, waiting until the turn to raise when you can charge a higher price instead of raising the flop?

Both. On the turn, your raise gives them worse pot odds, and on that turn, they have a lower % to win on top of it. Just like in hold em: you shove on a 2 diamond flop, you get called by 2 diamonds and brace yourself. You shove on a turn after a 2 diamond flop with a brick, and most sensible players will give you the smaller win uncontested, and even if a bad player comes along for the ride on the river, we only have to fade 9 outs (or less, if you have blockers). That's for PL.. In Fixed limit, you simply charge them the whole way as much as you can. Fixed limit is always designed around having to show down the best hand, never forget that. You get no money in the pot once the river bricks, you make all your money on the flop and turn.That's why it's called "gambling".

[jmbreslin 0]

Dammit, I should pay closer attention...PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Omaha/8 (10 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, 4, A, 2. UTG raises, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 5 folds, Hero calls, BB calls.Flop: (8 SB) 2, 7, T(4 players)Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds.Turn: (5.50 BB) 8(3 players)Hero bets, BB calls, UTG raises, Hero only now realizes his 2 was counterfeited on the flop...

[Cappy37 0]

Dammit, I should pay closer attention...PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Omaha/8 (10 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, 4, A, 2. UTG raises, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 5 folds, Hero calls, BB calls.Flop: (8 SB) 2, 7, T(4 players)Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds.Turn: (5.50 BB) 8(3 players)Hero bets, BB calls, UTG raises, Hero only now realizes his 2 was counterfeited on the flop...

hehe.. You'd be surprised how often your good for 1/4 to 1/2 here.. You'd also be surpised how often that $@#W$ river is a 4.Turn bet cost you a chance to show this hand down, but I bet you already knew that. Even if another 2 on the river takes the high for you, this is a pretty easy fold.If that turn is an 8 of hearts, its a whole new ballgame, because you can re-raise and possibly knock out another A4, and any heart and any 3 is a great card. Any 2 or any Ace may also get you far more of the pot than you expected.As for this particular hand, the 8 doesn't complete any realistic draws. The clubs are the scariest thing out there, but the A3 and club frush could be brutal in the combined hands, and the A3 of clubs in one hand is the worst case scenario: Always easy to fold when a villain only needs 2 cards to scoop you. Much easier to make some hero calls when someone else needs all 4 of their cards working to stymie you.

[jmbreslin 0]

Oh my god, it happened...I finally got the river card I needed! I'm so happy (relieved) I could cry...PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Omaha/8 (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 3, 2, A, A. UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, CO calls, Button 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG folds, Hero calls, CO calls.Flop: (14 SB) 8, Q, 7(4 players)SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls, SB calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.Turn: (11 BB) 9(4 players)SB bets, Hero calls, CO folds, Button calls.River: (14 BB) 5(3 players)SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls.Final Pot: 23 BBResults:SB has Qd Jc 6c 5s (High: straight, nine high). Hero has 3d 2h Ah As (Low: 8, 7, 5, 2, A | High: flush, ace high). Button has Ac 2c 2d 7s (Low: 8, 7, 5, 2, A | High: one pair, sevens). Outcome: Hero wins 17.25 BB. Button wins 5.75 BB.

[jmbreslin 0]

For the second session in a row I've played a good hour and a half on 3 FL tables and walked away with a profit of just about 2BB. I'm not sure this FL structure can hold my interest over the long term. So far I'm not seeing a good reason to play FLO8 over PL08.

[Cappy37 0]

For the second session in a row I've played a good hour and a half on 3 FL tables and walked away with a profit of just about 2BB. I'm not sure this FL structure can hold my interest over the long term. So far I'm not seeing a good reason to play FLO8 over PL08.

FL is a bit more about safety and mechanical thinking, anyways.Spread it out to a couple .10/.20, .25/.50, .50/1, and 1/2 tables and get a 7 or 8 table session going. Hell I used to have 3 or 4 tables of .50/1 and .25/.50 going at once while I was putting girls on stage. The ultimate beauty of the flop game: easy multitabling.PL may be your better game, anyways. Just trust in yourself and your abilities and play what you want. You can look me up on Pokerstars 4 straight nights and one night I'll be in a couple 4.40s, the next night $2/4 o8b, next night .50/1 horse, and last night you'd have seen me yelling at IntelliPoker Avatars in 10 cent turbos. It's all a gane after all, no matter how seriously we try and take it. Nutbarring micro turbos is a good way to get off tilt, too.

[jmbreslin 0]

Trying one of those dime turbos for the first time as we speak. Been brutally card dead but still able to make it to the top 1/3 so far. Getting desperately short, though...

[Cappy37 0]

For the second session in a row I've played a good hour and a half on 3 FL tables and walked away with a profit

Quoted the important part.. Now ask yourself: could I have played a couple hands better? Could I have run a whole lot better, too? Now the important thing: Could you see yourself playing considerably worse? Could you imagine yourself running considerably worse? And factor in how much LO8 you've played overall. I think you're putting too low a ceiling on your potential. If your complaint is that it isn't glamorous, I'll give you that. But it is pretty easy money. Here's the next secret: The guys at .25/.50 aren't much better *at all*.Do you feel you are risking your full $10 when you sit down? at any point? Can you understand how I was able a while back to sit at $2/4 with $350 in my online BR? Making a bad river call at .25/.50 is, like 50 cents.. at .10/.20 it's not even a quarter.Feel the power of the darkside.

Trying one of those dime turbos for the first time as we speak. Been brutally card dead but still able to make it to the top 1/3 so far. Getting desperately short, though...

If you are nitting up in a ten cent turbo, you are *totally* missing the point. Ace-rag needs to beat King-Eight, and multiple times.. Get to shovin! Remember your ultimate goal: to get a Trucker in Des Moines to break his keyboard, and all for the low, low price of ten cents.

[Cappy37 0]

Ran a little fun experiment tonight.. It was a sloooow night for tables, and since I only had one .50/1 horse table going, I went ahead and fired up all the o8b tables I could find.. At one point I had a .10/20, .25/50, .50/1, 1/2, and 2/4 table going at once.Using the .50/1 as the barometer, I won like 5 buy ins. I ran pretty well, but my biggest stack (buying in regular on all tables) was actually the .50/1 table. I ran it up to $60 from $20 and never dipped below $55 the whole night.I didn't really hit my share of miracle cards, but I don't think I missed a single value bet in a scoop or 3/4 situation all night. The biggest revelation of the night was at .50/1, where I haven't played in months (HORSE doesn't count, different table dynamic).. PF Raises were thinning fields, I was taking the lead all over the place and stealing a ridiculous amount of pots. Even when people started to figure out what I was doing, they'd be unlucky enough to play sheriff on boards I'd hit *hard* and I'd win the absolute max on each street. Obviously I got some cards along the way, but it was an absolute wild session. If anyone was being naughty with PT, I must have showed up seeing at least 50% of flops with an insane raise% and VPIP. Granted I changed gears (and with 5 or 6 tables open, you *are* always in a pot, just not all 6 lol).I guess what I'm saying is: I may actually move down limits. $2/$4 is a chore, and there's plenty of regulars I keep an eye on and approach with caution in marginal spots. But if I can continue to be hyper-aggressive and turn a large profit at even .50/1, I think I need to look into it.I'm actually kinda bummed about stars opening the floodgates on .25/.50 Horse and Razz tables, because it's really killing the .50/1 games.. There used to be, like, 4-8 .50/1 Horse tables going at night on Stars.. Now there is ... one.. maybe two if you are lucky. That's simply not cutting it right now for me.

[jmbreslin 0]

Quoted the important part.. Now ask yourself: could I have played a couple hands better? Could I have run a whole lot better, too? Now the important thing: Could you see yourself playing considerably worse? Could you imagine yourself running considerably worse? And factor in how much LO8 you've played overall. I think you're putting too low a ceiling on your potential. If your complaint is that it isn't glamorous, I'll give you that. But it is pretty easy money. Here's the next secret: The guys at .25/.50 aren't much better *at all*.Do you feel you are risking your full $10 when you sit down? at any point? Can you understand how I was able a while back to sit at $2/4 with $350 in my online BR? Making a bad river call at .25/.50 is, like 50 cents.. at .10/.20 it's not even a quarter.

I definitely see your point and I have full confidence that I could be a winning FLO8 player over the long term but it just seems like a much less interesting and much slower grind. Your point about the limits is well taken, though. With disciplined play it's virtually impossible to lose big in FLO8 so one can afford to play out of one's roll. That might make the 1BB/HR profit a bit more tolerable.

If you are nitting up in a ten cent turbo, you are *totally* missing the point. Ace-rag needs to beat King-Eight, and multiple times.. Get to shovin! Remember your ultimate goal: to get a Trucker in Des Moines to break his keyboard, and all for the low, low price of ten cents.

The funny thing is that I basically folded my way to 86th place. I just have to make the mental adjustment to the loose play since it's virtually impossible to get FIV in these. PF play is basically 85% limps with 15% pushes, nothing in between. I have to force myself to put my chips in the middle in far less than ideal circumstances.

[jmbreslin 0]

Cappy, here's a question for you: which do you prefer for PLO8, full 10-person tables or 6-max? The thing I find annoying about 6-max is that it is difficult to maintain a full table - there's often one person sitting out, and then someone leaves, and pretty soon you're playing with 4 people.Last night I had one of each open at .02-.05. The 6-max afforded more opportunities to play aggressively, but I did lose 1/2 buyin. PF raises weren't really thinning the field as I'd like, stealing pots postflop wasn't as easy as I'd like, and I didn't really hit any big hands. Hand selection was probably still a bit nitty, though.On the full table I ended up playing very few hands and never really got a chance to try the aggression with the larger field. Full tables seem to be more appropriate for straightforward nut-peddling, while 6-maxes are better for aggression. Is that consistent with your experience?

[Cappy37 0]

I definitely see your point and I have full confidence that I could be a winning FLO8 player over the long term but it just seems like a much less interesting and much slower grind. Your point about the limits is well taken, though. With disciplined play it's virtually impossible to lose big in FLO8 so one can afford to play out of one's roll. That might make the 1BB/HR profit a bit more tolerable.

Just open 2 tables of .10/.20 and 2 tables of .25/.50.. If you can average 1 BB/hr in each, that's substantial profit. It's easier to fold crap like A479 from MP1 if you're barely scrolling over to the 4th table to see it. ;)And about the word "discipline".... Good cash game players have one thing in common: a complete and utter disregard for the value of money in the heat of battle. I wish you could have seen the amount of times tonight I dragged a 3way pot on a 247 flop with KQJJ. Running into the nuts costs you one small bet on the flop. You win 3-4 small bets for not running into the nuts.

The funny thing is that I basically folded my way to 86th place. I just have to make the mental adjustment to the loose play since it's virtually impossible to get FIV in these. PF play is basically 85% limps with 15% pushes, nothing in between. I have to force myself to put my chips in the middle in far less than ideal circumstances.

hehe.. Yeah, I'm estatic when the pot hasn't been re-raised by the time it gets to me on the button. Treat it like PLO: suited connectors win some big, big pots. And 89 sooted is very, very, live against two all-ins.9th place out of 360 pays 50 cents. 50 cents. Damn the torpedos, accumulate some chips. (I've cashed (for min) once in about 15 of these.. I'm an expert.)

[Cappy37 0]

Cappy, here's a question for you: which do you prefer for PLO8, full 10-person tables or 6-max? The thing I find annoying about 6-max is that it is difficult to maintain a full table - there's often one person sitting out, and then someone leaves, and pretty soon you're playing with 4 people.Last night I had one of each open at .02-.05. The 6-max afforded more opportunities to play aggressively, but I did lose 1/2 buyin. PF raises weren't really thinning the field as I'd like, stealing pots postflop wasn't as easy as I'd like, and I didn't really hit any big hands. Hand selection was probably still a bit nitty, though.On the full table I ended up playing very few hands and never really got a chance to try the aggression with the larger field. Full tables seem to be more appropriate for straightforward nut-peddling, while 6-maxes are better for aggression. Is that consistent with your experience?

I prefer LO8. That's my bread and butter. I don't like playing 10 person PLO8 at all. Bluffing and repping hands is expeeeensive.More thoughts later, I'm going to bed.

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

You just got royalllly screwed PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Hero ($5.85)Button ($13.83)SB ($11.83)BB ($3.17)UTG ($21.87)MP ($4)Preflop: Hero is CO with 5 , A , Q , 5 . 2 folds, Hero calls $0.05, Button calls $0.05, SB completes, BB checks.Flop: ($0.20) T , 2 , J (4 players)SB checks, BB bets $0.05, Hero calls $0.05, Button calls $0.05, SB folds.Turn: ($0.35) K (3 players)BB checks, Hero bets $0.1, Button raises to $0.2, BB calls $0.20, Hero raises to $0.5, Button raises to $0.8, BB folds, Hero raises to $1.6, Button calls $0.40.River: ($3.35) 3 (2 players)Hero bets $2.85, Button calls $2.85.Final Pot: $9.05Results in white below: Hero has 5s Ac Qc 5c (High: straight flush, ace high). Button has 3c 6c 9c 4c (High: flush, king high). Outcome: Hero wins $9.05.

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

Full tables seem to be more appropriate for straightforward nut-peddling, while 6-maxes are better for aggression. Is that consistent with your experience?

I agree 100% with this statement