The Hi-lo(w) Content Thread

[jmbreslin 0]

Preflop: Hero is SB with J , K , 3 , 4 . 2 folds, Button raises, Hero calls, BB calls.

Okay, I know it's limit and you're getting an SB discount but where do you expect to go with this hand?

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

being aggresive makes catching hands like this sooooo much sweeterPokerStars 2/4 Omaha/8 (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Preflop: Hero is Button with 2 , A , J , A . 3 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.Flop: (4.50 SB) K , 6 , 4 (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.Turn: (3.25 BB) K (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.River: (5.25 BB) 7 (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.Final Pot: 7.25 BBResults in white below: BB has Qd 2s 4c 8c (Low: 8, 7, 6, 4, 2 | High: two pair, kings and fours). Hero has 2d Ac Jh Ah (Low: 7, 6, 4, 2, A | High: two pair, aces and kings). Outcome: Hero wins 7.25 BB.

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

the river gin card I didn't even need PokerStars 1/2 Omaha/8 (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Preflop: Hero is Button with 4 , 3 , A , A . MP posts a blind of $1. 1 fold, MP (poster) raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, BB calls, MP caps, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.Flop: (16 SB) Q , 5 , A (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, MP bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB folds, MP calls.Turn: (11 BB) J (3 players)SB checks, MP bets, Hero raises, SB folds, MP calls.River: (15 BB) 2 (2 players)MP checks, Hero bets, MP calls.Final Pot: 17 BBResults in white below: MP has Qc Ah 3s Tc (High: two pair, aces and queens). Hero has 4c 3h As Ad (Low: 5, 4, 3, 2, A | High: straight, five high). Outcome: Hero wins 17 BB.

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

Okay, I know it's limit and you're getting an SB discount but where do you expect to go with this hand?

I got 2 lo 2 high 3 handed and I had yet to see the guy raise and showdown a hand that didn't have A2 in it. I quit multitabling and have been really trying to focus in on betting patterns and tendencies while I play. It was loose, but honestly I was just looking for a high only flop or a lo flop with an A,2 or both in it.

[jmbreslin 0]

I got 2 lo 2 high 3 handed and I had yet to see the guy raise and showdown a hand that didn't have A2 in it. I quit multitabling and have been really trying to focus in on betting patterns and tendencies while I play. It was loose, but honestly I was just looking for a high only flop or a lo flop with an A,2 or both in it.

Aren't these contradictory? If your read tells you he's likely raising A2, calling the raise w/ 34 hoping to hit an A, 2 or both doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. On the other side your high potential also isn't great with 3 clubs and KJo. I can see limping in position or completing/checking in the blinds, but I'm not big on calling a raise OOP with this.

[jmbreslin 0]

the river gin card I didn't even need PokerStars 1/2 Omaha/8 (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Preflop: Hero is Button with 4 , 3 , A , A . MP posts a blind of $1. 1 fold, MP (poster) raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, BB calls, MP caps, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.Flop: (16 SB) Q , 5 , A (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, MP bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB folds, MP calls.Turn: (11 BB) J (3 players)SB checks, MP bets, Hero raises, SB folds, MP calls.River: (15 BB) 2 (2 players)MP checks, Hero bets, MP calls.Final Pot: 17 BBResults in white below: MP has Qc Ah 3s Tc (High: two pair, aces and queens). Hero has 4c 3h As Ad (Low: 5, 4, 3, 2, A | High: straight, five high). Outcome: Hero wins 17 BB.

Why is it that when I play hands just like this, my villain has KT for the turned straight and I don't improve on the river but you find guys overplaying 2P? (sorry, just a bit more venting)

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

Why is it that when I play hands just like this, my villain has KT for the turned straight and I don't improve on the river but you find guys overplaying 2P? (sorry, just a bit more venting)

the more you push and push guys play back with less and less

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

Aren't these contradictory? If your read tells you he's likely raising A2, calling the raise w/ 34 hoping to hit an A, 2 or both doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. On the other side your high potential also isn't great with 3 clubs and KJo. I can see limping in position or completing/checking in the blinds, but I'm not big on calling a raise OOP with this.

I didn't care what I hit I was just looking for a flop I thought didn't hit him and maybe hit me (still contradictory? sigh I am an oxymoron!)

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

repping the O8 people on the WSOP fantasy picks leader board

[Cappy37 0]

I got 2 lo 2 high 3 handed and I had yet to see the guy raise and showdown a hand that didn't have A2 in it. I quit multitabling and have been really trying to focus in on betting patterns and tendencies while I play. It was loose, but honestly I was just looking for a high only flop or a lo flop with an A,2 or both in it.

Aren't these contradictory? If your read tells you he's likely raising A2, calling the raise w/ 34 hoping to hit an A, 2 or both doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. On the other side your high potential also isn't great with 3 clubs and KJo. I can see limping in position or completing/checking in the blinds, but I'm not big on calling a raise OOP with this.

It's actually not that contradictory if you look at possible outcomes. You have clubs, you're looking for a high flop, and any high board without an ace gives you an excellent shot at the best high hand.If an ace falls, suddenly you are likely on the better low draw. Your position does stink, but you also get the first chance to fire at the flop, and someone skittish (you'll meet many of them) won't like being called by someone OOP who fires into the flop like that and takes the play away from them. Risking one big bet to take blinds has become a complete mess in there eyes, and if they don't connect solidly with the flop (happens an awful lot) you can profit greatly over time.It's the same concept that makes re-stealing late in NLHE tourneys so profitable: Risking 200 chips to steal 150 in blinds and antres isn't as lucrative as riskin 550 to steal 350 in blinds and ante when the oringinal raiser's range for calling that re-steal is... so.... small.. if stacks are relatively deep. And if you are playing as the original raiser, even the prospect of getting your raise flatted sucks: you have to CB any flop, or, if they are OOP, they can put you to the test before you even act. And if you got AJ and the flop is T96, who's range is that flop likely hitting? ;)Winning an o8b hand in showdown isn't the easist thing in the world. Hittting boards happens, but hitting them squarely is rare, and being the bettor is almost without fail the place to be.

[Cappy37 0]

Why is it that when I play hands just like this, my villain has KT for the turned straight and I don't improve on the river but you find guys overplaying 2P? (sorry, just a bit more venting)

I always play o8b under the mantra "Can my hand beat KT94?" at lower limits. Because that's what you are ALWAYS facing, I swear. lol. The key is to have 4 tables open, so you can go up against four players with KT94 and win 2-3 of them. Limit games are all about the long run. Hell, just today I was rereading supersystem, and Mike Caro's quote: "If you show big profit by calling on the river, you aren't calling enough!".. Couple that with "Money saved and money earned are the same thing.", and that's some interesting spin to put on limit. I am a selective caller, mainly only when lows/draws don't hit on the river, and I'm certain I still don't call nearly enough despite my "profit". And hell, anyway you can spin folding as "earning money" always gets my attention. I "earn" a ton of money in Stud Hi preflop, in that case

[jmbreslin 0]

Did I say this game was hard?PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Omaha/8 (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4, 2, J, T. Hero calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.Flop: (4 SB) 3, 6, 7(4 players)SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls, Button calls.Turn: (4 BB) A(4 players)SB bets, BB folds, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls.River: (10 BB) 5(3 players)SB bets, Hero raises, Button folds, SB calls.Final Pot: 14 BBResults:SB has 9d 2s 5s 3c (Low: 6, 5, 3, 2, A | High: two pair, fives and threes). Hero has 4s 2h Jc Th (Low: 5, 4, 3, 2, A | High: straight, seven high). Outcome: Hero wins 14 BB.

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

nice to see you post a winning hand!

[Cappy37 0]

I flopped a straight flush!!! oh... wait... crap..PokerStars Game #17951327855: HORSE (Omaha Hi/Lo Limit, $0.50/$1.00) - 2008/06/06 - 07:53:35 (ET)Table 'Ganymede' 8-max Seat #8 is the buttonSeat 1: Capt_Christy ($3.60 in chips) Seat 2: Tiana00 ($36.40 in chips) Seat 5: Cappy37 ($29.70 in chips) Seat 6: mg51 ($20 in chips) Seat 7: riotejopt ($21 in chips) Seat 8: Pauly P7 ($15.55 in chips) Capt_Christy: posts small blind $0.25Tiana00: posts big blind $0.50mg51: posts big blind $0.50*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Cappy37 [3d 4d 9h 5d]Cappy37: calls $0.50mg51: checks riotejopt: calls $0.50Pauly P7: folds Capt_Christy: calls $0.25Tiana00: checks *** FLOP *** [2d Ad 9s]Capt_Christy: checks Tiana00: bets $0.50TheBlues48 joins the table at seat #4 Cappy37: calls $0.50mg51: calls $0.50riotejopt: raises $0.50 to $1Capt_Christy said, "what a suck out"Capt_Christy: folds Tiana00: calls $0.50Cappy37: raises $0.50 to $1.50mg51: calls $1riotejopt: raises $0.50 to $2Betting is cappedTiana00: calls $1Cappy37: calls $0.50mg51: calls $0.50*** TURN *** [2d Ad 9s] [6s]Tiana00: checks Cappy37: bets $1mg51: calls $1riotejopt: raises $1 to $2Tiana00: calls $2Cappy37: calls $1mg51: calls $1*** RIVER *** [2d Ad 9s 6s] [Td]Tiana00: checks Cappy37: bets $1mg51: calls $1riotejopt: calls $1Tiana00: raises $1 to $2Cappy37: calls $1mg51: calls $1riotejopt: calls $1*** SHOW DOWN ***Tiana00: shows [4c Qd Ks 6d] (HI: a flush, Ace high)Cappy37: shows [3d 4d 9h 5d] (HI: a flush, Ace high - lower cards; LO: 6,4,3,2,A)mg51: shows [3c 9d Jc 4s] (HI: a pair of Nines; LO: 6,4,3,2,A)riotejopt: mucks hand Tiana00 collected $13 from potCappy37 collected $6.50 from potmg51 collected $6.50 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $26.50 | Rake $0.50 Board [2d Ad 9s 6s Td]Seat 1: Capt_Christy (small blind) folded on the FlopSeat 2: Tiana00 (big blind) showed [4c Qd Ks 6d] and won ($13) with HI: a flush, Ace highSeat 5: Cappy37 showed [3d 4d 9h 5d] and won ($6.50) with HI: a flush, Ace high; LO: 6,4,3,2,ASeat 6: mg51 showed [3c 9d Jc 4s] and won ($6.50) with HI: a pair of Nines; LO: 6,4,3,2,ASeat 7: riotejopt mucked [5h As 2s Js]Seat 8: Pauly P7 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Actually, I'm posting this because FTR is now officially 50/50 in actually converting my hands. Anyone use another converter that works well for o8b?

[jmbreslin 0]

nice to see you post a winning hand!

Yeah, unfortunately I gave it all back a bit later when I got outdrawn on the river twice and quartered once.One particuarly frustrating hand: I see the flop with 2345, flop comes 267 with 2 diamonds (I didn't have any), I think to myself "let's see a low card, virtually any low card..." turn is the 6d...."except that one!"Buy in for the session: $4Cash out: $4.02Whoopee!

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

u could get 2 tootsie rolls for that! lolu think I'm loose preflop check this dnky out. Me and others took his whole stack in about 4 orbits (his name is 333times ;-)PokerStars 2/4 Omaha/8 (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Preflop: Hero is Button with K , A , 2 , J . 1 fold, MP calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, MP calls.Flop: (6.50 SB) 9 , 5 , Q (3 players)BB checks, MP checks, Hero checks.Turn: (3.25 BB) 7 (3 players)BB checks, MP bets, Hero calls, BB calls.River: (6.25 BB) 4 (3 players)BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets, BB folds, MP calls.Final Pot: 8.25 BBResults in white below: MP has 6c Jd Jh 9c (High: one pair, jacks). Hero has Ks Ad 2c Js (Low: 7, 5, 4, 2, A | High: high card, ace). Outcome: MP wins 4.12 BB. Hero wins 4.12 BB.

[antistuff 0]

Actually, I'm posting this because FTR is now officially 50/50 in actually converting my hands. Anyone use another converter that works well for o8b?

bad beat and good vibes almost never gives problems.

[jmbreslin 0]

Holy hell, I'm starting to wonder if it's even possible to make money at this game. How the hell to I avoid a mess like this?PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Omaha/8 (10 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9, 2, A, 6. MP3 posts a blind of $0.10. UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, MP3 (poster) calls, CO calls, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls.Flop: (11.50 SB) 6, 4, 3(6 players)atom(o)pulse calls, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO raises, Button calls, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls.Turn: (16.25 BB) K(6 players)UTG checks, atom(o)pulse checks, Hero bets, MP3 raises, CO calls, Button calls, atom(o)pulse folds, Hero calls.River: (24.25 BB) J(5 players)UTG checks, Hero bets, MP3 raises, CO calls, Button 3-bets, UTG folds, Hero caps, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls.Final Pot: 40.25 BBResults:UTG+1 has Ad 2c Kh 5hHero has 9d 2d As 6s [lost to the higher flush and split the nut low 3 ways]MP3 has 5d 3c Jh Td (High: flush, king high). CO has Ah Ks Qd 2h (Low: 6, 4, 3, 2, A | High: flush, king high). Outcome: CO wins 40.25 BB.

[jmbreslin 0]

Okay, someone clearly hates me.PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Omaha/8 (10 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Preflop: Hero is BB with 4, A, 3, 2. MP3 posts a blind of $0.10. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 (poster) checks, atom(o)pulse calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, SB calls.Flop: (11 SB) A, 2, K(6 players)SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, SB folds, Hero calls, MP1 folds.Turn: (7 BB) 4(2 players)Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls. [totally tilting at this point]This kind of thing has been happening to me over, and over, and over again. If it's not high hands getting outdrawn or big draws missing, it's lows getting counterfeited. Ride it out, just ride it out...

[Cappy37 0]

Holy hell, I'm starting to wonder if it's even possible to make money at this game. How the hell to I avoid a mess like this?Results:UTG+1 has Ad 2c Kh 5hHero has 9d 2d As 6s [lost to the higher flush and split the nut low 3 ways]MP3 has 5d 3c Jh Td (High: flush, king high). CO has Ah Ks Qd 2h (Low: 6, 4, 3, 2, A | High: flush, king high). Outcome: CO wins 40.25 BB.

lol. That's simply unlucky to get 1/6th of the pot. Your getting 1/4 of a bloated pot at worst in most situations, and have the nut low and a nine-high flush isn't the worst spot to be. I also like your PF raise with two FDs and nut low w/ cf protection. Keep it up man, the game is a bit swingy.

Okay, someone clearly hates me.PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Omaha/8 (10 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Preflop: Hero is BB with 4, A, 3, 2. MP3 posts a blind of $0.10. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 (poster) checks, atom(o)pulse calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, SB calls.Flop: (11 SB) A, 2, K(6 players)SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, SB folds, Hero calls, MP1 folds.Turn: (7 BB) 4(2 players)Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls. [totally tilting at this point]This kind of thing has been happening to me over, and over, and over again. If it's not high hands getting outdrawn or big draws missing, it's lows getting counterfeited. Ride it out, just ride it out...

lol wow. I assure you that happens to me all the time. Think of it this way: you have 6 outs on that river to win the high half, and likely any of 20 cards (5, 6, 7, or 8) is going to still win you the low portion. That's 26 of 44 unseen cards that give you a portion of this pot. This isn't the worst spot to find yourself in.

[antistuff 0]

is being down about $600 in 2/4 fixed limit over like 2500 hands really really really bad?im trying very hard to learn limit and im having a very hard time. missing bets, betting the turn and havinvg to call the raise because i have outs, all sorts of stuff.although, every big draw i've had where i got raise after raise in multiway missed, usually ending up with the flush comeing and pairing the board and me paying off a bet. and every set has gotten cracked (and i aint talking about against monster wrap flush draws)one mistake that i have noticed i make a lot is bluff raising the river when i know they don't have enough to call. naturally i am always right and they call every time with middle pair. im trying to tell myself to stop doing it but its tough. i dunno, is it safe to attribute some of that to bad luck and maybe im not horrible ive just had a very rough run of cards?or is losing that much that fast just mean that i suck and have a lot of work to do?

[Cappy37 0]

is being down about $600 in 2/4 fixed limit over like 2500 hands really really really bad?im trying very hard to learn limit and im having a very hard time. missing bets, betting the turn and havinvg to call the raise because i have outs, all sorts of stuff.although, every big draw i've had where i got raise after raise in multiway missed, usually ending up with the flush comeing and pairing the board and me paying off a bet. and every set has gotten cracked (and i aint talking about against monster wrap flush draws)one mistake that i have noticed i make a lot is bluff raising the river when i know they don't have enough to call. naturally i am always right and they call every time with middle pair. im trying to tell myself to stop doing it but its tough. i dunno, is it safe to attribute some of that to bad luck and maybe im not horrible ive just had a very rough run of cards?or is losing that much that fast just mean that i suck and have a lot of work to do?

Wow. check-raising river is bad. check-folding rivers allows you check-call and get paid on rivers when they don't have enough to call. I make a lot of my money that way.Bad luck over 6000 hands happens. I wouldn't dwell on it. Get that river bluffing out of your artillery and you'll be fine. Variance swings both ways.Betting turn is usually +EV.. Make sure you aren't going crazy betting out on flops with two low cards on it when you are going high. You'll charge them on the turn plenty when the board hits high again.Always be aware of game selection. If you are playing on a site that doesn't have a ton of game selection, there may not be enough producers. The funny thing about o8b is: you need the producers, or it's just not going to work. I stopped playing Horse on stars for a long time once I realized I was playing against a constant field of similar faces who were marginally good to excellent.Switch up a bit and play some stud8 or Razz (at a slightly lower limit)for a while and then start again fresh. Sometimes we don't need a break from poker, we just need a break from *that effin' game*. Of course, what do I know. I play $2/$4 all the time (I should stick to $1/$2 dammit!), and a 7.5 buy in downswing would pretty much empty my online bankroll. And yet I sweat when I play $2.20 hold em tournaments. Yeah, what the hell do i know? ;)And

[antistuff 0]

Wow. check-raising river is bad. check-folding rivers allows you check-call and get paid on rivers when they don't have enough to call. I make a lot of my money that way.Bad luck over 6000 hands happens. I wouldn't dwell on it. Get that river bluffing out of your artillery and you'll be fine. Variance swings both ways.Betting turn is usually +EV.. Make sure you aren't going crazy betting out on flops with two low cards on it when you are going high. You'll charge them on the turn plenty when the board hits high again.Always be aware of game selection. If you are playing on a site that doesn't have a ton of game selection, there may not be enough producers. The funny thing about o8b is: you need the producers, or it's just not going to work. I stopped playing Horse on stars for a long time once I realized I was playing against a constant field of similar faces who were marginally good to excellent.Switch up a bit and play some stud8 or Razz (at a slightly lower limit)for a while and then start again fresh. Sometimes we don't need a break from poker, we just need a break from *that effin' game*.

im actually trying to switch to limit because the games look softer than the pot limit games. im not sure i can beat the 2/4+ pot limit games. i think with a little work i can be beating the 5/10 limit games in a few months.

[Cappy37 0]

im actually trying to switch to limit because the games look softer than the pot limit games. im not sure i can beat the 2/4+ pot limit games. i think with a little work i can be beating the 5/10 limit games in a few months.

Exactly! What do you need me for? That river bluffing concept just scares me, if the pot isn't being shoved into my chipstack on the turn, I'm mentally preparing myself for the next hand already. Def. work on that. You don't see faces consistantly enough to be making -EV moves to get paid off in later hands. And if you have enough players that are around you that often to do that and you still aren't winning, you need to stop playing with those guys.don't you play one of those funky sites, anyways? Like UB or Cake or something wild like that? I play straight Stars, so my advice for battling Stars donks may not apply. You may need to be betting middle pair for value on rivers, i dunno.

[antistuff 0]

Exactly! What do you need me for? That river bluffing concept just scares me, if the pot isn't being shoved into my chipstack on the turn, I'm mentally preparing myself for the next hand already. Def. work on that. You don't see faces consistantly enough to be making -EV moves to get paid off in later hands. And if you have enough players that are around you that often to do that and you still aren't winning, you need to stop playing with those guys.don't you play one of those funky sites, anyways? Like UB or Cake or something wild like that? I play straight Stars, so my advice for battling Stars donks may not apply. You may need to be betting middle pair for value on rivers, i dunno.

nope FT exclusively.