Really Gay Spot With Jj In The 55k

[mk 11]

can't remember the last time a preflop decision was this lame. it's gay because of button's stack size. what do you do here?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Button (t6330)SB (t26055)BB (t40805)UTG (t5075)Hero (t27410)MP1 (t11700)MP2 (t10090)MP3 (t12390)CO (t23450)Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J , J . 1 fold, Hero raises to t800, 4 folds, Button calls t800, SB raises to t3625

[Kid DynOmite 0]

take a flop and be careful, duh... and this spot is much gayer... not that there's anything wrong with that!!!!!!!!

[copernicus 0]

I think button is out of this hand. Yes you are somewhat squeezed but you do have a real hand. I think you have to call and see the flop or SB is going to run over you any time you are in a hand without a monster. If button pushes I think you can let it go.

[beforetoday4 0]

can't remember the last time a preflop decision was this lame. it's gay because of button's stack size. what do you do here?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Button (t6330)SB (t26055)BB (t40805)UTG (t5075)Hero (t27410)MP1 (t11700)MP2 (t10090)MP3 (t12390)CO (t23450)Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J , J . 1 fold, Hero raises to t800, 4 folds, Button calls t800, SB raises to t3625

I love how people still use "gay" as a synonym for all things bad. Like you can't come up with a different word. It kind of makes me laugh inside, because "gay" and "fag" are usually the top insults used by 16 year old kids who don't have an intelligence level high enough to figure out something else to use. Plus it just makes you sound like an insensitive prick.But on to your question, it really pains me how people always seem to look for strategy in playing JJ. JJ, like any pair, pretty much plays itself, especially if you're in position. You need to decide if you think your JJ is good. If you honestly think you're up against QQ, KK, or AA, then dump it obviously. But if you think your JJ is good, you NEED to raise here for a few reasons:1. You need to fade the button caller so that you'll have position.2. If you get smooth called by the SB, you have control of the hand and position.3. If you get re-popped by the SB, you can get away from the hand and still have plenty of chips if you decide that is the right play.4. If the SB is making a move to steal, and he folds to your re-raise, you'll pick up a t5000 pot, which is never a bad thing with JJ.If you do get smooth called to a flop, you'll be in fine shape. Put your opponent on a hand and play your read accordingly.

[KowboyKoop 0]

I love how people still use "gay" as a synonym for all things bad. Like you can't come up with a different word. It kind of makes me laugh inside, because "gay" and "fag" are usually the top insults used by 16 year old kids who don't have an intelligence level high enough to figure out something else to use. Plus it just makes you sound like an insensitive prick.But on to your question, it really pains me how people always seem to look for strategy in playing JJ. JJ, like any pair, pretty much plays itself, especially if you're in position. You need to decide if you think your JJ is good. If you honestly think you're up against QQ, KK, or AA, then dump it obviously. But if you think your JJ is good, you NEED to raise here for a few reasons:1. You need to fade the button caller so that you'll have position.2. If you get smooth called by the SB, you have control of the hand and position.3. If you get re-popped by the SB, you can get away from the hand and still have plenty of chips if you decide that is the right play.4. If the SB is making a move to steal, and he folds to your re-raise, you'll pick up a t5000 pot, which is never a bad thing with JJ.If you do get smooth called to a flop, you'll be in fine shape. Put your opponent on a hand and play your read accordingly.

So, do you feel the same about the word 'retarded?'

[beforetoday4 0]

So, do you feel the same about the word 'retarded?'

I actually do. I'm not going to act like I've never used the word or try and put off some "holier than thou" attitude, I've just made a conscious effort to not have those words as part of my vocabulary, and I think it strengthens my character. I wish more people would do the same, but in most cases people use words like "gay" or "retarded" in a negative tone without really thinking about the connotation. It's still no excuse really.

[jmbreslin 0]

Not that this has anything to do with poker, but I'm with before on this "gay" and "retarded" issue. Especially when use of the word makes absolutely no sense in that context, such as describing a poker decision as gay. I think the last time I said something like, "That's so gay" I was probably 15 years old.

[copernicus 0]

. Put your opponent on a range of hands and play your read accordingly.

FYP, and thats why I dont like a raise here. You are nearly pot committted with any meaningful raise, and if any overcard flops youve got a problem against a mandatory continuation bet. Position doesn't help you here unless youre up against a very weak player. If youre going to raise PF then the only raise that looks right to me is a push.

[beforetoday4 0]

FYP, and thats why I dont like a raise here. You are nearly pot committted with any meaningful raise, and if any overcard flops youve got a problem against a mandatory continuation bet. Position doesn't help you here unless youre up against a very weak player. If youre going to raise PF then the only raise that looks right to me is a push.

If we're going to a flop, I like to try and put my opponent on an exact hand. So if you smooth call, thus giving up control of the betting, and an over card flops, how does that help you any more?Plus by just smooth calling, you risk a call by the button, thus completely surrendering position and control.

[copernicus 0]

If we're going to a flop, I like to try and put my opponent on an exact hand. So if you smooth call, thus giving up control of the betting, and an over card flops, how does that help you any more?Plus by just smooth calling, you risk a call by the button, thus completely surrendering position and control.

Putting someone on an exact hand based on preflop action is impossible and causes far too many bad decisions. In at least a couple of articles/books by pros its listed as one of the biggest leaks in poker.How does it help you more? It saves you chips when you fold, lol. If youre going to play after an overcard flops then push preflop because well over half of your stack will be in on the flop anyway. You have to raise 9k or more for it to have any teeth.Who cares about the button? You havent surrendered position to a remaining stack that is less than 1/2 the pot, he's all in on the flop anyway. Your only positional considerations are against the SB and you cant lose that with a call. Position doesnt mean much with these stacks anyway and in fact because your SPR after a min-raise is under 2, "positioneis more of a negative than a positive most of the time.If you min-raise to 6500 theres 15k in the pot and youve got 20k behind. An overcard flops and SB cb's for 10k...are you calling? If you are, push preflop! Position is an illusion here unless SB is a very bad player or the flop is all 10s or less...1/3 of the time.

[PMJackson21 0]

Push or fold. I'd lean towards a fold w/out a read on the SB. Then again, it's the 55k, so gambling it up for a big stack is not really ever going to be a bad thing. If the raise with JJ had come from LP, I would say shove, but as it is I would say it's a weighted coin flip, with perhaps TT in his range if he is bad.

[gobears 0]

I probably just fold here - I'd be worried about a shove from the button if we just call which would allow the SB to shove also so we burn off more than 10% of our stack without seeing a flop. We still have almost 90bbs after this hand if we fold preflop. Deep stacked, jacks look pretty but I would rather think of them as a middle pair in this spot.

[rog 0]

If we're going to a flop, I like to try and put my opponent on an exact hand.

How do you do that? I'm just curious. Unless there's one exact hand he plays in this exact way, and unless you've seen him show down enough hands to know that he doesn't play any other hand this way, I'd like to know how you narrow it from a range of reasonable hands to an exact hand. Incidentally, I call here to see a flop. I cant see folding, but I'm not eager to get it in PF.As for the whole gay thing, when I was young, people were pretty homophobic, and used the word gay with a lot of hatred behind it. It went out of fashion for a while as a PC thing, or maybe because people realized it was insensitive. It seems to have come back, but it's kind of campy. It's less about saying gayness is bad, and more about making fun of the way we used to be. Most of the people I know who use the word gay are pretty open-minded about sexuality. There's not really any hatred behind it. It's more ironic than anything. Maybe this is unique to my circle, and we actually have a whole new generation of homophobes, but I kind of hope not.

[Bizzle 0]

Push or fold. I'd lean towards a fold w/out a read on the SB. Then again, it's the 55k, so gambling it up for a big stack is not really ever going to be a bad thing. If the raise with JJ had come from LP, I would say shove, but as it is I would say it's a weighted coin flip, with perhaps TT in his range if he is bad.

Back when Pat was good at the 55k I think he would have said fold.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Button is in push/fold and probably won't be all that influenced by your decision.The one thing you don't want to see if you call is the button push followed by the SB pushing... but if that's the case then raising would have done nothing but lost you chips anyway.Given you have position on the player with fold equity, this is a flat call unless SB is really tight. SB's range widens because there are lots of hands he really doesn't want to see a flop with due to his positional disadvantage. Also, with the SB's size raise, I feel he's already shut you out of the hand in his mind, since he's raised enough where a button push would re-open betting by a slight margin.Remember, SB in this hand also had CO and HIJACK, the two primary steal spots in an MTT (since button gets no respect now a days), on your blinds. For metagame value don't let him push you around on the few hands you'll be involved together where you have position.

[PMJackson21 0]

Back when Pat was good at the 55k I think he would have said fold.

What's the point of playing until 3 am, coming in 12th, making like $200, and then being bitter at the world when I have to wake up at 8am for work? Meh. I used to love it though, and I still think it is a good tournament to practice for deep stack/big field live tournaments (lots of chips in play after the break, horrible players, etc etc). You are probably right though, I most likely fold if I am taking it seriously. Hard enough game as it is then to put yourself in a marginal spot post flop with what amounts to a mid pair really. Even if the flop comes rags, I'd have a hard time putting it all in vs a sizeable c-bet unless I think the guy is horrible. If you flat call, anyone with a brain is going to put you on a mid to high pair (unless they think you would play aq/ak that way, and if that's the case id love that image ), and therefore the c-bet is only going to come from another big pair. I might shove on a weak looking c-bet (player dependant), but if he leads for like 6k-7k I probably dump it. So, IMHO, I'm only flat calling to set mine, and that seems like a bit of a spew given the size of the re-raise. If you factor in the short stack still to act behind you w/ the ability to really f things up and re-open the betting for the sb, I think that makes it an easier muck.One of the benefits of playing deep stack poker vs a relatively weak field is being able to pick and choose your spots more selectively then you would normally be able to online. I'm really not trying to play a huge pot with a deepstack with JJ (barring other table factors, like the sb doing similar things earlier and showing down 55 etc), and that is exactly where the hand is going.As always, every hand is situational...

[beforetoday4 0]

When I said that I like to put my opponent on an exact hand if we're going to see a flop, I think it read wrong in the context of this thread. What I literally meant was that I enjoy trying to put my opponent on an exact hand. Not necessarily for strategy reasons, its just a game I tend to play in my head. I've already put the Villain on a range of hands when he originally makes the raise.I'm also not saying I'm completely against shoving here. I'm saying that raising is the right play. Smooth calling here will likely result in one of these situations:1. The button shoves, followed by the SB either calling or shoving. 2. The flop comes with an over card, followed by a c-bet from the SB.Those who have argued to call pre flop have basically stated that they would fold in either situation. So what's the point in calling off 4k with an intention of folding on the flop?RAISE HERE. If the right raise is a shove, then so be it.

[Ron_Mexico 4,219]

what about ghey? Is that better?

[copernicus 0]

When I said that I like to put my opponent on an exact hand if we're going to see a flop, I think it read wrong in the context of this thread. What I literally meant was that I enjoy trying to put my opponent on an exact hand. Not necessarily for strategy reasons, its just a game I tend to play in my head. I've already put the Villain on a range of hands when he originally makes the raise.I'm also not saying I'm completely against shoving here. I'm saying that raising is the right play. Smooth calling here will likely result in one of these situations:1. The button shoves, followed by the SB either calling or shoving. 2. The flop comes with an over card, followed by a c-bet from the SB.Those who have argued to call pre flop have basically stated that they would fold in either situation. So what's the point in calling off 4k with an intention of folding on the flop?RAISE HERE. If the right raise is a shove, then so be it.

Its not your intention to fold. While the above situations are "likely" they arent assured. First, I disagree that a shove from button is likely. he was looking for a cheap flop or he would have pushed himself.On 2, You can flop the set, you can flop an underpair with no overcard, or you can see a free turn card. JJ is in no mans land with these stacks...it could be a monster or it could be 72o. Calling at least gives you some opportunity to identify which without a huge commitment. I can see folding 22-88, because they only have set value, but not JJ. I can also see raising with JJ with deeper stacks. You cant do that here without pushing. calling>>pushing>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>raising>>folding.

[DCJ001 0]

When I said that I like to put my opponent on an exact hand if we're going to see a flop, I think it read wrong in the context of this thread. What I literally meant was that I enjoy trying to put my opponent on an exact hand. Not necessarily for strategy reasons, its just a game I tend to play in my head. I've already put the Villain on a range of hands when he originally makes the raise.I'm also not saying I'm completely against shoving here. I'm saying that raising is the right play. Smooth calling here will likely result in one of these situations:1. The button shoves, followed by the SB either calling or shoving. 2. The flop comes with an over card, followed by a c-bet from the SB.Those who have argued to call pre flop have basically stated that they would fold in either situation. So what's the point in calling off 4k with an intention of folding on the flop?RAISE HERE. If the right raise is a shove, then so be it.

If you call, and the button shoves, it's not a full raise, so the small blind can only call or fold.

[copernicus 0]

If you call, and the button shoves, it's not a full raise, so the small blind can only call or fold.

is that the rule at stars or is half raise enough?

[DCJ001 0]

is that the rule at stars or is half raise enough?

It's a NLHE rule.

[copernicus 0]

It's a NLHE rule.

Its a NLHE rule that varies from card room to card room. In some 1/2 raise is sufficient to keep the betting open, in some its a full bet.

[DCJ001 0]

Its a NLHE rule that varies from card room to card room. In some 1/2 raise is sufficient to keep the betting open, in some its a full bet.

Online, I've only seen a full raise reopening the action to the original bettor/raiser. Live, some dealers and/or floorpeople might allow 1/2 raises to reopen the action; but that's because they misunderstand the rules of the game. The following two rules are sometimes confused with each other:

If a player puts in a raise of 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the minimum raise, he or she will be required to make a full raise. The raise will be exactly the minimum raise allowed. In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in bet of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted.

[mk 11]

lol @ this thread.

I love how people still use "gay" as a synonym for all things bad. Like you can't come up with a different word. It kind of makes me laugh inside, because "gay" and "fag" are usually the top insults used by 16 year old kids who don't have an intelligence level high enough to figure out something else to use. Plus it just makes you sound like an insensitive prick.

oh cool, i actually am an insensitive prick, nice call. luckily i know a lot of gay men, and they love me because i'm really good looking so i can get away with this sort of thing.

Back when Pat was good at the 55k I think he would have said fold.

What's the point of playing until 3 am, coming in 12th, making like $200, and then being bitter at the world when I have to wake up at 8am for work? Meh. I used to love it though, and I still think it is a good tournament to practice for deep stack/big field live tournaments (lots of chips in play after the break, horrible players, etc etc). One of the benefits of playing deep stack poker vs a relatively weak field is being able to pick and choose your spots more selectively then you would normally be able to online. I'm really not trying to play a huge pot with a deepstack with JJ (barring other table factors, like the sb doing similar things earlier and showing down 55 etc), and that is exactly where the hand is going.As always, every hand is situational...

i agree with all of this. i ended up folding for the reasons above... hate putting a ton of chips in pre with JJ when deep.yay for pat posting in strategy!