Official Toronto Maple Leafs Thread

[DanielNegreanu 141]

Teaching kids compassion and love are both extremely important. Teaching kids responsibility, self confidence, and how to own their power and not give it away are aspects that I also find to be extremely worthwhile, ESPECIALLY for those kids that may be different. I work regularly with large groups of teens and younger, and its amazing how empowered they are when they realize that nothing anyone says about them is fact. It's all just that persons perception. If they say you are ugly, thank them for the feedback. If they say you are beautiful, thank them for the feedback. What matters most is how you perceive yourself and that you love yourself! if you allow others to decide for you how you feel about yourself, you give THEM your power. No sense hiding our children from an often cruel world. They will be called names and they will suffer defeat and feelings of rejection. The real power comes in teaching them that they are responsible for how they interpret it, and they can still choose happiness, sadness, power, love, or even indifference.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Well, we disagree on the difference between the words retarded and the words dumb/stupid. For me, it has to do with the history of the word, and the usual intent behind it, and the real pain it causes. I also don't equate "these rules are dumb" with "that guy is retarded". Mostly because of the words, and also because one is a person, and the other is not.

And for the record, I never said anything like that about the rules, I try my best to be above that stuff. At the end of the day, some words just carry a history and if you know about them, they have a deeper effect than just a casual word.

I don't want to get into all that why "retarded" is offensive stuff, because I have to at some point come back to the reality that this is just an internet forum. And I realize people can act however they want+say whatever they want, this is the world we live in.

 

Frankly, I also despise how people use "I'm not PC" as a means to say anything they want with little to no thought for others feelings. I respect your views to be independent and not cowtow to others, but I hate the ones who would rather err on the side of saying whatever they want, instead of erring on the side of not hurting someone else's feelings.

You'll have to excuse me, but that reeks of arrogance. Of which there is plenty to go around here.

[Babying 613]

I know the word offends Arp and I truly understand. Hell they called my son that at school by other kids and I heard all the negative comments from the school, doctors, health professionals, etc. So much so that my wife never attended the meetings at the school. I went and just let it all soak in. I can go on and on about his life and struggles. I did teach him that if someone calls him names let it bounce off you because there will be far worst things said about you in the future.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Teaching kids compassion and love are both extremely important. Teaching kids responsibility, self confidence, and how to own their power and not give it away are aspects that I also find to be extremely worthwhile, ESPECIALLY for those kids that may be different. I work regularly with large groups of teens and younger, and its amazing how empowered they are when they realize that nothing anyone says about them is fact. It's all just that persons perception. If they say you are ugly, thank them for the feedback. If they say you are beautiful, thank them for the feedback. What matters most is how you perceive yourself and that you love yourself! if you allow others to decide for you how you feel about yourself, you give THEM your power. No sense hiding our children from an often cruel world. They will be called names and they will suffer defeat and feelings of rejection. The real power comes in teaching them that they are responsible for how they interpret it, and they can still choose happiness, sadness, power, love, or even indifference.

 

Thats great, but if you ever met or worked with kids with disabilities, you might see thats not as easy to do as the example you showed.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I know the word offends Arp and I truly understand. Hell they called my son that at school by other kids and I heard all the negative comments from the school, doctors, health professionals, etc. So much so that my wife never attended the meetings at the school. I went and just let it all soak in. I can go on and on about his life and struggles. I did teach him that if someone calls him names let it bounce off you because there will be far worst things said about you in the future.

 

I dont have a problem with trying to teach them to not let the word get to them, and to empower them, but should we not also be teaching kids not be mean to each other, both as kids and as adults.

 

Why is civility given up so easily in this world? Is it that it portrays weakness?

[gruven 530]

I think it was Dennis Leary that used to say in his routine,

 

'Hate is something we teach our kids. They aren't born that way. My son is two years old, and you know what he hates? Naps. The list starts and ends there. Everything else he's learning from us.'

[Babying 613]

I dont have a problem with trying to teach them to not let the word get to them, and to empower them, but should we not also be teaching kids not be mean to each other, both as kids and as adults.

 

Why is civility given up so easily in this world? Is it that it portrays weakness?

 

Very true but it is not easy to do. I have been called chink when I played hockey and softball. Never bother me.

 

I hear kids making fun of my son and my blood starts to boil.

[serge 904]

I think it was Dennis Leary that used to say in his routine,

 

'Hate is something we teach our kids. They aren't born that way. My son is two years old, and you know what he hates? Naps. The list starts and ends there. Everything else he's learning from us.'

 

The word hate is very strong. We shouldn't hate anything. Except the Montreal Canadiens***

 

 

***trying to lighten topic and bring it back to topic.

[serge 904]

 

 

Very true but it is not easy to do. I have been called chink when I played hockey and softball. Never bother me.

 

I hear kids making fun of my son and my blood starts to boil.

 

I used to be called chubby and four eyes at school. It really bothered me.

 

 

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Very true but it is not easy to do. I have been called chink when I played hockey and softball. Never bother me.

 

I hear kids making fun of my son and my blood starts to boil.

 

I guess its the fatherly instinct. You want to protect them against everything, and DN is right, doesn't really matter the word, just about any type of cruelty gets to me. Heck, even just seeing him ignored by his schoolmates gets to me.

I don't know why people are so full of hate and anger and always looking to put others down.

[digitalmonkey 929]

 

 

I guess its the fatherly instinct. You want to protect them against everything, and DN is right, doesn't really matter the word, just about any type of cruelty gets to me. Heck, even just seeing him ignored by his schoolmates gets to me.

I don't know why people are so full of hate and anger and always looking to put others down.

 

...low self-esteem, uncomfortable with things/people that are different, learned behaviour...

[Babying 613]

I used to be called chubby and four eyes at school. It really bothered me.

 

Sorry i had to laugh. Funny thing is my high school reunion is on this weekend. I have not attended the last 2 but I am going to go to this one. In high school I was considered semi intelligent, semi jock and full time gambler. I guess the latter 2 still exists.

 

 

I guess its the fatherly instinct. You want to protect them against everything, and DN is right, doesn't really matter the word, just about any type of cruelty gets to me. Heck, even just seeing him ignored by his schoolmates gets to me.

I don't know why people are so full of hate and anger and always looking to put others down.

 

I am with you on that. Why go through life spewing out garbage to cause damage to someone else.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I think it was Dennis Leary that used to say in his routine,

 

'Hate is something we teach our kids. They aren't born that way. My son is two years old, and you know what he hates? Naps. The list starts and ends there. Everything else he's learning from us.'

 

quoting cause it needs to be bumped.

 

Cheers Chris.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

Thats great, but if you ever met or worked with kids with disabilities, you might see thats not as easy to do as the example you showed.

 

Oh, I'm certain you are right. No question about it that poses many more challenges. Still worth the effort of course, but yes, it's often going to be an uphill battle.

 

As a culture, the whole "PC thing," I think we spend far too much energy on the actual word rather than the intent. The c-word is s perfect example. In some cultures, the word is used in an endearing way between friends. Here in Melbourne it's quite common for a guy to say, "Have another beer with us ya big c-word." Say that around a women in Detroit, and most would be livid.

 

In poker, we finally changed/corrected the f-bomb rule. For a while just saying the f word would get you an automatic penalty. You could call someone a fat piece of shit, but if your friend just told you he won 10 grand and you said, "No way, get the **** out of here! That's awesome!" Penalty. I think we can all agree that's absurd.

 

I wasn't aware that both you and Ing had children with disabilities. I couldn't possibly understand what that's like. Had I known that, I likely would have played it safe and chose a different word. Not because I think using the word to describe an action is wrong, I don't, but simply because it could hit a nerve.

 

We are always going to offend people. The term "That sucked" actually offended a father about a year ago when it was used in front of his teenager. He comes from a time where that phrase was short for suck... you know. Is the term that sucked offensive? To some in may be. A world where we tip toe around things out of fear of possibly offending someone is futile IMO. It's just going to happen, because different things trigger different people.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

We are always going to offend people. The term "That sucked" actually offended a father about a year ago when it was used in front of his teenager. He comes from a time where that phrase was short for suck... you know. Is the term that sucked offensive? To some in may be. A world where we tip toe around things out of fear of possibly offending someone is futile IMO. It's just going to happen, because different things trigger different people.

 

I agree with a lot of what you are saying and I do appreciate your thoughts.

You are giving me a lot to think about and I do conceed a lot of your points, especially on the intent vs the word.

 

I just think it doesn't require much effort to be civil to other people, both in actions and in words. Being kind+considerate shouldn't be that hard of an effort. I understand there will always be times when people are offended by words, but just because it will always be the case, doesn't mean we should not try to minimize it. If for no other reason than just simple kindness.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying and I do appreciate your thoughts.

You are giving me a lot to think about and I do conceed a lot of your points, especially on the intent vs the word.

 

I just think it doesn't require much effort to be civil to other people, both in actions and in words. Being kind+considerate shouldn't be that hard of an effort. I understand there will always be times when people are offended by words, but just because it will always be the case, doesn't mean we should not try to minimize it. If for no other reason than just simple kindness.

 

Agreed. Having said that, if four guys are out on the golf course making fun of each other, having a few laughs, being inappropriate, or whatever, they should have that right as long as all four are on the same page. They can still be both kind and considerate to each other, while also busting each others balls!

[gruven 530]

I think one important distinction to make here is between adjectives and actual groups of people. What I mean is, if I use the word 'dumb' it doesn't immediately associate with a group of people. It just means, well, dumb. But if I call someone a fag, or retarded, or a chink, or worse, I am identifying a GROUP of people and derogating not just the person I'm insulting, but that entire group as well with the insinuation that that group, class, or people is beneath everyone else and therefore worthy of ridicule.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Agreed. Having said that, if four guys are out on the golf course making fun of each other, having a few laughs, being inappropriate, or whatever, they should have that right as long as all four are on the same page. They can still be both kind and considerate to each other, while also busting each others balls!

 

I want to agree with you, and I know I have done THAT a million times in my life, golf course, locker room, poker table...whatever. But at the end of the day, I wonder if using those words then, doesn't just end up being more a part of our vocabulary later. I don't know, I really am not sure. I'd like to think we could be smart enough to know the difference.

 

I really don't care what anyone does in the privacy of their own lives. As long as you respect others feelings, do whatever the heck you want in your life. Who am I to tell someone how to be happy.

 

And fwiw, I don't have a gay son,(I dont think?) but I also have tried to stop using the word "gay" when referring to something stupid or dumb. That may be PC of me, but Id rather not associate the two. It doesnt just work for me on the things that hit home, and I am still evolving and learning every day.

[gruven 530]

And now for some true comic relief, once again courtesy of Mr. Leary.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

lol.

I miss Rescue Me. One of my favourite shows of all time.

 

Black Sean!

[Dubey 1,035]

Mostly because of posts by Arp on this forum in the last couple years, I've tried to completely eradicate the term "retarded" from my vocabulary. I've definitely been guilty of using it a fair bit in my life.

 

I also tend to agree with Arp, that while innocent bantering between friends on the golf course, or poker table, or locker room or whatever isn't really going to hurt anyone, it does tend to build our vocabulary that inevitably ends up being used in other settings, even if no harm is meant by it. Maybe not so with certain words that are outright taboo in a "civilized" setting, but moreso with words like "retarded" that your brains isn't going to automatically stop you from saying in another setting. Like, you aren't going to accidently drop the C word in a business meeting just because you call your friend Gary a C-word on the golf course every time he misses a putt, because your brain instinctively knows it's a "bad word". You might use the term "retarded" in a casual setting though if you have become accustomed to using it amongst your friends, because your brain doesn't automatically register that as a "bad word", because society hasn't taught us that "retarded" is a bad word. I think it's better if we just stop using the term altogether.

[mrdannyg 274]

Some great stuff on the last two pages. Congrats to every single one of you for being more civil than I was.

 

I had this thought process of blasting into you, getting all mad and belligerent, and then I realized, whats the point. I don't know you, I don't really know what makes you tick, and at the end of the day, it really won't matter.

 

 

Its too bad you chose not to ask why its hurtful, merely to preach why it should not be. To me that's the sign of someone who has their own way of thinking, maybe selfish+conceited and not really a person capable of much empathy. I could be wrong on that, because again, I don't know you and I am just making assumptions.

 

The only things that truly bother me is that....

 

1. You don't recognize to whom the words are most hurtful, as Wayne said, not to us adults but to kids with disabilities. Sometimes its not about just you and I, we need to set the tone for others. I think you may learn that someday if you are ever blessed with a child.

 

2. You are a public figure with the ability to affect change.

 

This is the one that really gets me. Honestly, if you were just another person here, I would have told you you're an idiot, and I would have walked on. But the fact you are who you are, and this society has deemed you to have these powers, makes me wish I could convince you how words do hurt, and how your actions do matter, and not because of someone like me, but because of those in our world who need all the compassion and love we can give them. What you say, and how you say it, for some incredible reason does set an example for others. We all know its true.

Setting the tone for kids to grow up mocking each other, by teaching them that words don't hurt, is just a horrendous way to use what has been bestowed upon you, in my humble opinion.

Its not much different than the father that uses homophobic, racist words at home in front of his kids.

 

I hope that gives you just a moment of pause.

 

You are exceptionally good at this. How about everyone does me a favour, and just ignores everything I write and pretends that I put down what MLP did. Agreed? Great, thanks.

 

First of all, thank you for the feedback. One thing I've always respected is a straight shooter. Having said that, I want to clarify one thing specifically as it may not have been as clear as it could be. I'm not saying people don't feel hurt as a result of words. Of course, this is human nature. The point I was making was that it isn't the words themselves that causes the pain, it's the meaning we give those words that causes whatever emotion it causes.

 

A personal example, if someone called me a cheap, dishonest, pushover, that would be akin to calling me a blue frog. It would hold no meaning to me because I know that none of it is true. Now, if you said something like I was showing up as arrogant, condescending, and judgmental, those are things that may sink in because I know that in my 40 years on this Earth I have shown up that way from time to time. So if I got that feedback, it would make me ponder.

 

The key distinction is that it's all about how "I" am perceiving those words, and not the words themselves. I was not trying to say that it's OK to call people names because they shouldn't let it hurt them. We are human, and our feelings are going to get hurt throughout our lives. I think the power lies in knowing that we own our own power and no one can "make" you sad, you choose that. No one "makes" you angry, you get angry because of how you perceive a situation.

 

I'm doing the opposite of victim bashing. I'm empowering the victim to see that he doesn't have to be one, no matter what anyone says or does to them.

 

I disagree with a lot of what you say, but I appreciate you taking the time to consider. As others have said, there's a difference between the word "dumb" and the word "retarded". Just like there's a difference between the word "lazy" and the word "******." Others have pointed out one is an adjective, and one can be a noun, but just as important to me is the association anyone targeted by that word has. Call someone lazy, and they think you're calling them lazy. Call someone the C-word, or N-word, and you're bringing up hundreds of years of hate and repression and worse. Fair or not, the english language has words that are loaded by a social understanding of what they mean, and you can't change that with personal perception...that's just what they mean, especially since there's always an unloaded synonym.

 

And you are bashing the victim by forcing them to take responsibility for their injury. If I leave my door unlocked and someone comes in and steals my stuff, then sure, you might point out that I shouldn't have left my door unlocked, but the person in the wrong is still the thief, and the fact that my door was unlocked is not a mitigant of their crime.

 

I think it was Dennis Leary that used to say in his routine,

 

'Hate is something we teach our kids. They aren't born that way. My son is two years old, and you know what he hates? Naps. The list starts and ends there. Everything else he's learning from us.'

 

I'm not sure if this refers to parents, or people in general. If it is parents, then I disagree. If it means other people...then yes, of course.

 

Oh, I'm certain you are right. No question about it that poses many more challenges. Still worth the effort of course, but yes, it's often going to be an uphill battle.

 

As a culture, the whole "PC thing," I think we spend far too much energy on the actual word rather than the intent. The c-word is s perfect example. In some cultures, the word is used in an endearing way between friends. Here in Melbourne it's quite common for a guy to say, "Have another beer with us ya big c-word." Say that around a women in Detroit, and most would be livid.

 

In poker, we finally changed/corrected the f-bomb rule. For a while just saying the f word would get you an automatic penalty. You could call someone a fat piece of shit, but if your friend just told you he won 10 grand and you said, "No way, get the **** out of here! That's awesome!" Penalty. I think we can all agree that's absurd.

 

I wasn't aware that both you and Ing had children with disabilities. I couldn't possibly understand what that's like. Had I known that, I likely would have played it safe and chose a different word. Not because I think using the word to describe an action is wrong, I don't, but simply because it could hit a nerve.

 

We are always going to offend people. The term "That sucked" actually offended a father about a year ago when it was used in front of his teenager. He comes from a time where that phrase was short for suck... you know. Is the term that sucked offensive? To some in may be. A world where we tip toe around things out of fear of possibly offending someone is futile IMO. It's just going to happen, because different things trigger different people.

 

Hell, yesterday I named my video game character 'Wade Belak' because I forgot about what happened to him. I didn't "offend" anyone, but I certainly made them feel shitty and sad, and anyone who didn't "know me" would have been offended. We can be too careful about our words, for sure. And we can decide how we feel about words ourselves. But there's also a reason certain words become PC (or not), and it isn't because some activist out there pretended to be offended on behalf of others who aren't. It's because people were offended, and spoke up, and asked people to stop using a word that caused them pain, even if the speaker didn't mean the pain, just like Chris asked me not to make jokes about his friend, Wade Belak.

 

The important thing is to be respectful and thoughtful if people do point out that you've offended them, or brought up an unpleasant memory. You still seem to be of the opinion that you should be able to say whatever you want, and that it's the other person who should choose not to be offended, which I disagree with, but I also genuinely believe you don't mean insult or injury with any of these things. So I hope you'll think about it, and don't stop saying "retarded" or "gay" or wearing blackface just because you don't want to offend people, or because someone might have a child with autism...I hope you stop saying them because they are words that hurt other people, and you don't want to hurt them, and I promise that there is another equally useful word that won't hurt anyone.

 

I think one important distinction to make here is between adjectives and actual groups of people. What I mean is, if I use the word 'dumb' it doesn't immediately associate with a group of people. It just means, well, dumb. But if I call someone a fag, or retarded, or a chink, or worse, I am identifying a GROUP of people and derogating not just the person I'm insulting, but that entire group as well with the insinuation that that group, class, or people is beneath everyone else and therefore worthy of ridicule.

 

So many good posts in the last couple pages. This is one of them.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

 

Hell, yesterday I named my video game character 'Wade Belak' because I forgot about what happened to him. I didn't "offend" anyone, but I certainly made them feel shitty and sad, and anyone who didn't "know me" would have been offended. We can be too careful about our words, for sure. And we can decide how we feel about words ourselves. But there's also a reason certain words become PC (or not), and it isn't because some activist out there pretended to be offended on behalf of others who aren't. It's because people were offended, and spoke up, and asked people to stop using a word that caused them pain, even if the speaker didn't mean the pain, just like Chris asked me not to make jokes about his friend, Wade Belak.

 

The important thing is to be respectful and thoughtful if people do point out that you've offended them, or brought up an unpleasant memory. You still seem to be of the opinion that you should be able to say whatever you want, and that it's the other person who should choose not to be offended, which I disagree with, but I also genuinely believe you don't mean insult or injury with any of these things. So I hope you'll think about it, and don't stop saying "retarded" or "gay" or wearing blackface just because you don't want to offend people, or because someone might have a child with autism...I hope you stop saying them because they are words that hurt other people, and you don't want to hurt them, and I promise that there is another equally useful word that won't hurt anyone.

 

 

very well said!

I wanted to add more than just a "like"

[DanielNegreanu 141]

Some great stuff on the last two pages. Congrats to every single one of you for being more civil than I was.

 

 

And you are bashing the victim by forcing them to take responsibility for their injury. If I leave my door unlocked and someone comes in and steals my stuff, then sure, you might point out that I shouldn't have left my door unlocked, but the person in the wrong is still the thief, and the fact that my door was unlocked is not a mitigant of their crime.

 

 

This becomes philosophical I suppose. I'm not "forcing" the victim to take responsibility, I'm simply pointing out that by doing so, they retain their own power and don't let others have it. There is no power or value in being a victim. There is a thing called the Four levels of Responsibility that I think is a really valuable way of looking at your life. The victim isn't responsible for being victimized, and the offender isn't in the right, but the "victim" is 100% responsible for how they react to it!

Two mothers, both had sons die in a car crash due to a drunk driver. One mother, who had two other kids completely checked out. Remained depressed and sad, turned to drugs and alcohol and neglected to be a mother to her other kids. Can you blame her? It's a tragedy and she couldn't get over it. The second woman started an organization called M.A.D.D. (Mothers Against Drunk Driving)

The point here is that both women had to deal with the same incident. Both women grieved, however one chose to do something to make a difference in the world, and the other didn't. This isn't about blame. Of course, both women deserve our compassion equally. The point is, both women were victimized in the same way, but one chose to handle it in such a way where she stood responsible for who she was going to be in the world, while the other remained a victim until she died. On top of that, the event caused her to victimize her other children who not only lost a brother, but also a mother.

 

Four Levels of Responsibility:

 

1. I am not responsible for anything. Everything in my life is the way it is because of circumstances and there is nothing I can do to change it.

....

....

4. I am responsible for everything. I am 100% responsible for how I react to things, people, and events in my life.

 

I want to live from #4. There is power in that. Again, it's not saying that if someone broke into your house, it's your "fault." It's saying that you do have control over how you let it affect your life. You could whine, bitch, lament your bad luck and be miserable for the rest of your life because your favorite watch was stolen if you choose. Or, you could live from the responsible place. "It's just a watch. It doesn't change who I am as a person, nor will losing it make me feel any less joyful." Yeah, that doesn't happen right away, we are human! But once you have said, "Dammit this sucks!!!!" It's the what next that counts.

 

 

****I'm going to leave you with something a bit more controversial. A woman is raped by her uncle at age 9. She is now 30 years old and her life is a mess. Who is responsible for that? Obviously the rapist is pure scum and what happened to her is inexcusable, but if her life is a mess 21 years, who is responsible for that? I want to be careful here to not be misunderstood. I'm not inferring that the pain is unwarranted, or that it's easy to let go. That's not even remotely what I'm saying. I'm saying the rape was an "event" and how she is dealing with that event after it happens, is her responsibility. I know plenty of rape victims. Some happen to be the most powerful women I know that make a huge difference for people. Sure, we wouldn't blame them if they remained a victim to that event, we can empathize surely, but they CHOSE to stand RESPONSIBLE and own their POWER and it's a beautiful thing! The event isn't any less painful, but they won't let the rapist own their power anymore.

I've personally coached multiple rape victims using a very similar philosophy. There is typically resistance and that's understandable, however once they "get it" that they don't have to be a powerless victim anymore, they are FREE, EMPOWERED, and ON FIRE!!!

 

 

Good discussion boys, I'm enjoying this.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Shouldn't rape discussion be in the Kobe Bryant thread ?