Official Toronto Maple Leafs Thread

[mrdannyg 274]

I only got through half the article before my computer crashed from the stupidity. I don't use the term "buffoon" lightly, but that is nothing short of buffoonery. My favourite parts were about how this streak was going to carry into next year, and how Kessel hasn't asserted himself or been a leader, with some weird implication that continuing to score while the Leafs were slumping was a mark against him. Oh, and that he's not a "Carlyle player" and will never be...you know, because Damian Cox says Phil Kessel will not play like Randy Carlyle wants, then of course the Leafs should trade him.The actual best line was about how if it wasn't for contract terms and salary cap, the Leafs would keep him. Which is not only incredibly stupid and unhelpful, but probably the opposite of true. Think about it - Kessel has a very reasonable cap hit and several years left on his contract. Those things make him an even more valuable asset in trades. Cap room is somewhat unimportant to the Leafs, as least compared to other teams. He's also young, a benefit that is limited by his contract term. In every single way, the fact that salary cap and and contract terms exist actually mean the Leafs should be less likely to trade him. I mean, unless Cox also assumes that trades are not allowed or something, and all he's saying is that Kessel has a net positive impact on the ice. And if he did mean that, then he is simply a terrible writer, and not a terrible writer who is also stupid and unable to perform simple logical deductions.Unless the second half of the article (which I still haven't read) is responding to the idiot strawman that Cox devises in the first half, then I can unequivocally say that Cox is a buffoon.That is probably obvious to anyone who reads Cox, but I don't read any mainstream Leafs writers, so I don't actually know who is consistently an idiot. But oh my god was that article stupid (the first half).edit - apparently my computer has a stupidity firewall, because I brought the article up again, and it crashed again after I read the part about comparing Kessel's situation to Downie's. They couldn't be more different in any sense. And he thinks the fact that they are opposite players, and that Downie was just traded, implies that Kessel should also be traded? What? The Leafs and the Lightning are in almost exactly the opposite situation. Downie and Kessel are almost exactly the opposite type of player. Other than youth, their contract situations are significantly different as well. And the Lightning traded Downie so...the Leafs should trade Kessel? His brain reminds me of what happens on televisions in movies when there is going to be a satellite or alien disruption or something, and the TV randomly skips around to a few things really quickly and illogically before the alien or evil villain starts their broadcast or whatever.

[digitalmonkey 929]

I dislike Cox's work because he always seems to be saying stupid things just to be controversial.

[Zach6668 513]

Trading Kessel is the dumbest thing ever. How many 30 goal scorers are there in the league this year? And he's under 25?Like ok, maybe he's not THE leader, maybe he's not outspoken in the room, maybe he's not physical, but he is what he is. He scores goals, he brings speed and energy.Like, trading him isn't going to magically change this team into a tougher, winning team. It's completely absurd. Keep him and build around him with players that complement him.Stupid article is stupid.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Always been a bit of a Cox fan, but I'm noticing last few years, as he becomes more twitter&radio&tv, and less newspaper columnist, his writing is much more provocative and seems like it's what Dale said, just to get a rise out of people. Also, much more Leafs based then before. I'm guessing he just figured this is what gets him paid, so he's going with it. Fwiw, the one thing he mentioned in there would be my argument to why you may consider it, and that's what the Flyers did this year. If you can get the kind of package they got for either player, maybe you consider it. Though if I was BB, I'd first look to resign him long term, and hope his playoff performance, whenever that comes, matches his other outputs.

[Zach6668 513]

I don't think you get that kind of package for Kessel with just 2 years left on his deal. The big thing with Richards and Carter, I think, is that they were both signed long-term, and traded to teams that had significant issues attracting free agents. Remember LA struck out with Gaborik, Kovy, Richards, etc, and well, Columbus is Columbus.Kessel will get close to both of these marks this season, but Richards had an 80 pt season on the books already, and Carter had a 40-goal year.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I don't think you get that kind of package for Kessel with just 2 years left on his deal. The big thing with Richards and Carter, I think, is that they were both signed long-term, and traded to teams that had significant issues attracting free agents. Remember LA struck out with Gaborik, Kovy, Richards, etc, and well, Columbus is Columbus.Kessel will get close to both of these marks this season, but Richards had an 80 pt season on the books already, and Carter had a 40-goal year.

I dont know about that. And if that was the case, sign Kessel anyway, and then deal him....again, this all just assumes you think your doing well on the deal. Im not advocating trading him because the coach doesnt like him (after 14days) or because the team is on a 7game losing streak. This is all Toronto bs, everything is so black or white, euphoria or depression.A lot of times, I read that guys like Carter+Richards are hard to move because they have these long term albatross contracts.Personally, one of my biggest pet peeves is the bs with the experts and long term contracts. Carter has a crappy 3 months, and his contract is ridiculous and impossible to move. He has a great month, and its suddenly a bonus that he doesnt need to be resigned soon and hes signed long term. I would assume Kessel's value would depend on the team knowing they could resign him....and lets face it, the team trading for him can easily find that out before a trade is finalized.

[Zach6668 513]

Yeah, of course. I would never say don't trade someone period (except for Sid and Geno!!!), certainly if the trade is good value and makes you a better team, you should probably do it.I don't agree long-term deals are tough to move either. People focus way too much on that. We all saw Scott Gomez get traded, right?They can't re-sign Kessel until July 1st, 2013, anyways.

[serge 904]

Damien Cox is a douche bag...Apparently the Leafs won last night..I only caught a minute or two

[Swacker Dave 89]

So... I decide to watch a feed of the Leaf/Bruin game online... mainly because I still happen to be awake with nothing better to do (I live in Ireland for those that don't know).I tune in to see the last 30 sec of the 1st and then the first thing the Boston announcers say at the start of their intermission is ... "Can you believe someone paid $600,000,000 for that Toronto team! That was just god awful..."Ouch .... maybe this should be in the Leafs Suck thread?

[serge 904]

So... I decide to watch a feed of the Leaf/Bruin game online... mainly because I still happen to be awake with nothing better to do (I live in Ireland for those that don't know).I tune in to see the last 30 sec of the 1st and then the first thing the Boston announcers say at the start of their intermission is ... "Can you believe someone paid $600,000,000 for that Toronto team! That was just god awful..."Ouch .... maybe this should be in the Leafs Suck thread?

Maybe you should shove a 4 leaf clover up your ass.Hey Dave whats up buddy:)

[Swacker Dave 89]

All good Serge! Baby #2 in a couple weeks... pretty much focused on that right now. Hockey wise, I was listening to Hockey Central the other day... they were talking about Radulov, now that he's back in the NHL the guys put out the question who is the best player not in the NHL?Consensus was Chris Kreider, NYRThat made me smile... Thanks Arp!

[mrdannyg 274]

All good Serge! Baby #2 in a couple weeks... pretty much focused on that right now. Hockey wise, I was listening to Hockey Central the other day... they were talking about Radulov, now that he's back in the NHL the guys put out the question who is the best player not in the NHL?Consensus was Chris Kreider, NYRThat made me smile... Thanks Arp!

Really? That sounds...insane. I would guess Chris Kreider, right now, is not among the top 50 players outside of the NHL. Don't tell me that he'd put up better stats in the AHL, today, than Keith Aucoin.

[Swacker Dave 89]

Not me man, just what they said... it made me smile because I got him from Arp for Cammalleri.

[serge 904]

All good Serge! Baby #2 in a couple weeks... pretty much focused on that right now. Hockey wise, I was listening to Hockey Central the other day... they were talking about Radulov, now that he's back in the NHL the guys put out the question who is the best player not in the NHL?Consensus was Chris Kreider, NYRThat made me smile... Thanks Arp!

Thats awesome baby #2This has been a fun month, as I have been able to tell people..I have a 7 year old and a 7 month old...Its over though Mateo will be 8 months in a couple of days.

[Zach6668 513]

Really? That sounds...insane. I would guess Chris Kreider, right now, is not among the top 50 players outside of the NHL. Don't tell me that he'd put up better stats in the AHL, today, than Keith Aucoin.

Umm, there's a reason Keith Aucoin has played 673 AHL games and only 94 NHL games and it has nothing to do with him being anywhere near the "best player outside the NHL".

[mrdannyg 274]

Umm, there's a reason Keith Aucoin has played 673 AHL games and only 94 NHL games and it has nothing to do with him being anywhere near the "best player outside the NHL".

because he's a jerk? hypothetically, the best player (atguable) in the 2nd best league would be the best player outside that league.who is better in the nhl in 12-13...a 21-year old kreider who has only played us college...or keith aucoin?

[Zach6668 513]

The AHL certainly isn't the 2nd best league. And your logic is horrible. You don't know Kreider wouldn't put up more points than Aucoin in the AHL, he's not eligible to prove it.

[mrdannyg 274]

The AHL certainly isn't the 2nd best league. And your logic is horrible. You don't know Kreider wouldn't put up more points than Aucoin in the AHL, he's not eligible to prove it.

It isn't? Well, maybe Russia, but I'm not so sure. Either way, prettay sure it isn't the NCAA. My logic is not perfect, but far from horrible. We're talking about the best player RIGHT NOW. And I don't "know" that Kreider wouldn't put up more points than Aucoin in the AHL or NHL. You know, because I'm not master of time and space, and cannot create multiple universes to test out this kind of theory. I can, however, apply reasonable judgment to say that a 20-year old putting up a ppg in the NCAA would probably not perform better against the best players in the world compared to a 33-year old with a dozen years of experience against better competition with much better numbers.I'm not even sure what we're arguing about. I mean, the guys on the show were obviously making a point about Kreider being sweet. And I know Dave was just poking some fun at getting an awesome prospect from Arp. But there's no way it is reasonable to say that Kreider is, right now, the best player outside of the NHL, is there? Or even close?

[Zach6668 513]

I'm arguing because your notion that Aucoin could at any point in his miserable career be considered the best player outside of the NHL is the most laughable thing I've heard today.This isn't a guy who isn't in the NHL because of lack of notice of his game, or restrictions (CHL/NCAA rules), etc. He has an NHL contract, and they still choose to keep him in the AHL at most times (he's actually in the NHL now, isn't he?).Also, there's far more to hockey than points, and Aucoin sucks at all of them. He's even proven it at the NHL level over almost 100 games. He's 33 years old and doesn't even have 100 NHL games. He's proven he's not a regular NHLer. He shouldn't even be in the conversation of best guy not in the NHL. The best guy not in the NHL is someone who can probably perform alright. Aucoin clearly cannot.Having said that, don't forget the hype that surrounded Brunnstrom a few years ago, and he's flamed out miserably.Most late college signings tend to be mediocre players (Butler, Bozak, etc), although Bozak could be a success story.In any event, Kreider's situation is different as he was drafted, the others were not. Obviously he's a prospect, but he's got much higher upside than those undrafted guys coming over from college or Europe.The Rangers believe he can play in the NHL right now, so I don't see a reason to not believe them. That's their job, and most guys doing that job are good at it.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Hockey wise, I was listening to Hockey Central the other day... they were talking about Radulov, now that he's back in the NHL the guys put out the question who is the best player not in the NHL?Consensus was Chris Kreider, NYRThat made me smile... Thanks Arp!

your welcome. Call it an early baby #2 gift. :)Ironically, I rarely get to listen to this show since I'm at work. But that day, I had an opportunity to just listen in on my comp while I did some work on the side without anyone else in my office. And I nearly dropped what I was holding when I heard them answer with "Kreider".....WHAT?!?!?!hey, I love the guy, but I'm not quite sure I would put him at that level. Id like to think I have another player that would deserve that title.....Mikael Granlund. And maybe even Gustav Nyqvist. But who knows how these guys pan out. That said, I know I will regret trading him, and I'm pretty sure I was begging you to do the deal without him. Nice move on your part, especially if Camm never returns to his 30goal ways in the next 3yrs of his deal.Id really like to see this deal become a win-win, with Camm helping me become a contender in next 3yrs, and Kreider becoming a stud in next 4-5 for you, if not sooner.One thing about him, and they mentioned this too....the guy is unreal fast. And he was one of the guys from my first draft in the AHL, so there is a bit of a sentimental thing with him too.

[Swacker Dave 89]

your welcome. Call it an early baby #2 gift. nice one!Ironically, I rarely get to listen to this show since I'm at work. But that day, I had an opportunity to just listen in on my comp while I did some work on the side without anyone else in my office. And I nearly dropped what I was holding when I heard them answer with "Kreider".....WHAT?!?!?!hey, I love the guy, but I'm not quite sure I would put him at that level. Id like to think I have another player that would deserve that title.....Mikael Granlund. And maybe even Gustav Nyqvist. But who knows how these guys pan out. That said, I know I will regret trading him, and I'm pretty sure I was begging you to do the deal without him. Nice move on your part, especially if Camm never returns to his 30goal ways in the next 3yrs of his deal.Id really like to see this deal become a win-win, with Camm helping me become a contender in next 3yrs, and Kreider becoming a stud in next 4-5 for you, if not sooner. I agree, hope so!One thing about him, and they mentioned this too....the guy is unreal fast. And he was one of the guys from my first draft in the AHL, so there is a bit of a sentimental thing with him too.

I think I have created a couple monsters up there! Amazing what a little zinger can do around here! You guys are Big Bang Theory mental about your hockey... evil geniuses! I don't get to follow things as mental as you guys so any little scrap like J. Shannons comment on Kreider I will cling too! His comment that he's already the best player on 20 NHL teams was funny as well. He got a chuckle out of the round table on that one.I only started listening to Hockey Central and Prime Time recently through the podcasts, so it's usually a next day thing but I am a bit more in the hockey headspace these days. We'll see if paying attention makes any difference in the next few years of the pool! ps: Serge is gonna yell at us for tainting his Leaf thread!

[serge 904]

I was at the game last night.It was possibly the worst game I have ever watched.Started off by possibly the worst piece of goaltending I have ever witnessed.The team has no energy, no direction and basically nothing.To all the Ron Wilson haters, Im glad you got your way..The team is much worse than they were under Ron Wilson.

[Zach6668 513]

Wilson still sucks, but Carlyle also sucks for this team.Also, they need better players.

[ajs510 122]

The lottery pick will be nice though...this would be a very good draft to have a Top 3 selection in.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

To all the Ron Wilson haters, Im glad you got your way..The team is much worse than they were under Ron Wilson.

Thats it Serge, blame others, and pat yourself on the back all in one shot. I have a friend who is a huge Leafs fan. Every bit as passionate as Serge, and has been following them closely for years and years. He also is a huge hockey fan as a whole, and watches every game he can. Huge poolie too.He has season tickets, and I would guess goes to nearly every single game he can, preseason, regular, whatever. Never sells them off.Yesterday, he called me up and just gave me his tickets. He said he just didnt want to be there. (this is ridiculously rare) Why? Cause he's had enough. Sick and tired of losing, sick and tired of being around a team that doesnt show effort. At least he figured Id enjoy Carolina, and my son would enjoy being at the game.He was right to not go. The Leafs PLAYERS, not management, not ownership, not the coaches, not the media/fans, but the PLAYERS showed next to no effort. Nearly every one of them should be ashamed today of the effort they put forth last night, it was pitiful. Its a fcking disgrace how many times I have been to a Leafs game and seen the Leafs players show poor effort. This is why I will never pay to see these losers, and why I will also never pay to put money in MLSE's coffers. It was stomach churning enough just to pay for hot dogs, knowing where the money goes. It occured to me that pro sports might be the one product that you pay for, and no matter how poor the service or product, you cant get your money back. Congrats to them for perfecting that.By the end of the game, even my son was booing, learning from the guys next to us why you boo. I saw another kid on our way out asking if anyone wanted his Leafs flag. He didnt want it anymore...when no one said anything, he threw it on the ground.end of rant.BUT...all that said, Adam is right. They are in line for a nice high pick, and as a fan, I would be rather happy if I was in Leaf land about that. I know I hate the fact that Carolina played themselves out of the lottery these last few weeks.