my thoughts on kurt's final hand

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

I was just wondering if anyone would ever congratulate smash for being right... again. So far no takers. I'm sure his detractors in the forum would flip out to make fun of him if they could catch him being wrong, but no dice. Again. He even confidently called it that Daniel would advocate calling vs. pushing the turn.He may be rough around the edges. But I think I'm a pretty smart guy, and I definitely think smash is smarter than me. So instead of fighting it and persisting in being wrong, I'm going to do my best to learn from people more experienced than me. And be better at poker for it.I'm sure it'd be way too much to ask for an apology from the people that ridiculed his poker opinion.Just pointing this out as a neutral observer.

[elkang 0]

I don't think anyone is neutral, but I appreciate the intent. I would call for some critical review by people and check to see why there are some inconsistencies in judgement. Please note Smash has already said that he would stand by his decision even if the guy showed the A9 on the turn (obviously a wild hypothetical) - this deflates any read based argument. Daniel does the same in his post.Meanwhile, again it looks like Smash "won" again (as if he really cares - since he already knew he was correct in his posts) but I'm sure it's nice to have a top pro give the same advice you did. What I don't get is the A9 call and would like to get into that player's head - was it chip count related? Meanwhile, let's keep trying to take this out of the personal realm. That post by Diabolical is just totally out of wack with this forum's goals. Kurt played well and got beat - that's poker. You don't really get to knock him until you've been through his experience.

[jayboogie 0]

well I've stated that I didn't like the turn push as well, because any hand you get called with in this spot is going to have 10 outs to bust you with at least and you could be drawing dead. A player limping in with a strong hand is not out of the question, I never saw why it would be, especially because your talking about professionals here and they're able to let go of KK, QQ, AK if it doesn't improve or they feel they're beat. This is just not at the point in the tournament where you need to put all your chips in the middle. You play to win and do need to take some gambles, but your not even close to the money here, survival is more important at the early stages of a tournament.Daniel, I'm curious to get your thoughts on how you would play the entire hand such as on the flop, would you have played the hand fast on this board? Personally, I would have played the hand fast with such a dangerous board.

[Suited_Up 2]

Thanks.I also don't understand his call, because he could have already been dominated, and at best he was hoping for a split or complete bluff.

[Suited_Up 2]

Dangerous Board???Are you trying to tell me flopping the nuts with no flush draws is a scary board, especially with no preflop raises. (At a table where someone was raising almost every hand preflop)I never saw anybody limp strong in the 5 hours we've been playing.You can argue my turn play... but you cannot say you should play this fast on the flop, unless you like getting absolutely no value out of your hands.

[Guest]

Thanks.I also don't understand his call, because he could have already been dominated, and at best he was hoping for a split or complete bluff.

Do you know how many chips alan had?? I never seen any post of his chip count when he called you?You have any idea kurt??

[Guest]

Lately, Ive begun to realize its best to not go all in on hands. There have been so many times where I could have saved myself plenty of chips if I would have just called bets instead of raising all in. I won a trip to the EPT Scandinavian Open in Denmark last January and i finished in 37th place going out like this... I had 10 A suited and I called a preflop raise in good position. Only me and 1 other person in the hand. Flop is J Q K. the guy bets about 8000 chips and i raised all in to about 25,000. He quickly calls and has KK. He hits a J on the turn to make the full house. Now I'm not saying that my play was wrong, but he raised pretty big before the flop and before I raised all in, it did cross my mind that he could very well have had JJ QQ or KK. Maybe if i just called and saw one more card, I would have been able to much my hand and keep myself with 15,000 chips after the turn. I'm sure it would have been hard to fold my cards even after the flop, but who knows, I would have had chips to work with still. I'm 99% sure that I go out on that hand because I doubt I have the skill and composure to fold. I really wish i folded preflop. Tough one with Suited_Up, but either way I think he played it fine. He obviously got a good read on the guy to be sure enough he didnt have the full house on the turn. He just got unlucky, as did I, and it cost him the tournament. Playing online the last week or so and hardly ever going all in unless im bluffing or very very sure I have little chance to lose, I've noticed ive done significantly better. You'll be thinking of that hand everyday for the rest of your life Suited_Up. A day never goes by when I see the exact way I lost in clear color in my mind lol.

[Suited_Up 2]

Eh...I like your play 3000gt. You knew you had the best hand, and of course a set could go through your mind, but you know you have the best hand. And His chip count. I'm not positive, I think it was around 75k or so. Give or take.

[Guest]

After looking at the hand more, the thing I see is that if you had just called and a 2-8 had come up on the river, you could have gone all in and he would have most likely called. If a 10 or J comes up you could have bet small and he would most likely call. If a Q K or A comes up, you could have folded. Either way man, you read the guy right and he hit a 10 outter on the river. If you had called tho, the only way i see you losing any money rather than going all in on the turn is if a 10 or J had come up on the river because you couldn't have gone all in or he would have folded. If any other card had come up, you know whether to check/ fold or go all in on the river. Unless it was a 9 lol that would suck. :Pedit: I am in no way putting you down. The only reason im seeing this and saying this is because of what Daniel posted. I am 99% sure i would have played it exactly the same way you did.

[TejasPoker 0]

Congrats on making it in the first place! reminds me of a joke I heard recently...Why do they call poker "poker" ? because the word "phuk" was already takin' :Dcheers!

[Mojolang 0]

Hey if we really wanna get on Kurt, let's hear about how he played the AQ vs. Oppenheim Seriously tho, talk about some of the other hands. They sounded interesting.Joe

[jayboogie 0]

Dangerous Board???Are you trying to tell me flopping the nuts with no flush draws is a scary board, especially with no preflop raises. (At a table where someone was raising almost every hand preflop)I never saw anybody limp strong in the 5 hours we've been playing.You can argue my turn play... but you cannot say you should play this fast on the flop, unless you like getting absolutely no value out of your hands.

AKQ on the flop is always an action board and dangerous for somebody that flops a straight. You obviously have the nuts at this point, but it's not like you have a hand where people can't catch up on. Anybody holding AT, AJ can catch 1 card for a straight as well for a chop. Besides, how are you going to know if somebody has been limping strong unless they flip over their hand? Your not going to see somebody's hand very often, so you really have no clue whether someone is limping strong or not. We disagree on the way the hand is played, I would have played it fast here. I would have check-raised the flop here, bet out on the turn.I think your letting your ego get in the way, nobody could convince you there's an alternative way to play the hand until Daniel came on here and said what he would do. You strongly disagreed with everyone that disagreed with your play by simply saying I know I played the hand right and you felt everyone was wrong. You might agree or disagree, but you shouldn't be so stubborn as to say I know I played it right, when in fact you probably didn't play it as best as you could.

[Royal_Tour 0]

I agree with everyone that posted a comment on why this topic became such a flame war.Myself, smash, splash, elkang, and others felt a certain way., and most other members, felt we were incorrect.It was merely a debate. Many of you asked, "we'll what would Daniel do?".here is your answer.Suited_Up. I still see all your points, and you have a strong argument, and at times i almost changed my views. Its such a toss up, I hope there were no hard feelings during the debates.On another note.. Any newbie posters who Flamed both sides of this Debate, i think you all need to find another site if you do not have any logical explanations for your thoughts, rather than name calling

[Monster_Josh 0]

Kurt, you dont' have to get so defensive. We ALL make mistakes.

[goleafsgo 0]

Kurt, I still think you should have considered betting the flop. Make a weak lead at it or even a normal bet, depending on how agressive youve been playing. Theres a good chance someone plays back at you because it looks like a steal. Then again if youve been playing super tight it might look like you flopped the nuts. I think the only way someone could make a real judgement is being there and your the only one that was there. However all the turn stuff depends on so many factors and the more i think about it i really dont know if there is a right or even better play...and if there is i think you would know because you knew the chances of getting called on the river and on the turn

[dms26 3]

If you really want to see convictions... then lets talk about why DN would say all-in with the best hand on my play is wrong, but going all-in, and risking his tournament on a draw is ok? He based it on his read of the person, I did the same, and at least I had a made hand, and the best one at that. So it looks like quite a double standard to me, and I still agree that my play was the right one!

You beat me to it :clap: Kinda strange how DN talks about just calling on your hand because of survival, yet he can push without a made hand. Seems to me like the amatuer playing in his first big tourney should be willing to take a few more risks to build chips. I still can't fault Kurt for pushing all in at that spot.

[augmented 0]

[ Seems to me like the amatuer playing in his first big tourney should be willing to take a few more risks to build chips. I still can't fault Kurt for pushing all in at that spot.

exactly what i'm saying. if you are someone like DN, its not a problem if you fold on the river to a scare card and are short stacked. but when you are an inexperienced amateur, you need to try to get your money in in good spots like these and take the skill out of the game. DN's way is correct if you are DN, but incorrect if you are someone like Kurt, who cannot outplay the table to build his stack back.

[Dixie Wrecked 0]

I think this tip from dutch boyd coulda helped with Kurt's hand. And, its a good one to remember while playing NL tourny's. Its from his essay on his site about NL tourny's:"So how is it that people like Stu Unger, Johnny Chan and Doyle Brunson could win the biggest event more than once? They must have gotten lucky... actually, they just rarely put themselves in a position where they were all-in. This year, before my hand with Moneymaker, I was only all-in one time during the whole tournament. Moneymaker was only all-in one time... against me. In order to win tourneys, you have to keep from going all-in. "Sure there are exceptions like going all in when you have the absolute nuts with all the cards out, etc. But, I think Dutch Boyd makes a good point here.

[Scott3705 0]

Kurt, I still think you should have considered betting the flop. Make a weak lead at it or even a normal bet, depending on how agressive youve been playing. Theres a good chance someone plays back at you because it looks like a steal. Then again if youve been playing super tight it might look like you flopped the nuts. I think the only way someone could make a real judgement is being there and your the only one that was there. However all the turn stuff depends on so many factors and the more i think about it i really dont know if there is a right or even better play...and if there is i think you would know because you knew the chances of getting called on the river and on the turn

I'm not saying leading to enduce a re raise is a bad play. It's a play that I use very sparingly depending on the type of people at the table. However, I do not think this board is a legitimate board to be making this type of play. the best hand that was out there a9 (as far as we can tell), probably would have called or just folded here. I don't see even the wildest of players (good wild players) playing back at some one with this board. A lead bet on this board from the one of the blinds is gonna seem very strong to me and asking for some one to play back.

[Smasharoo 0]

Maybe because DN never called me a moron for my play and blah blah type of comments?Neither did I, but let's not let the facts get in the way of a good steryotype, right?

[Chiggleslap 0]

Maybe because DN never called me a moron for my play and blah blah type of comments?Neither did I, but let's not let the facts get in the way of a good steryotype, right?

Yeah, I'm actually super-surprised that you have that stereotype, Smash...Not a valid stereotype at all, really...Completely unwarranted...You're a sweetheart, and everyone should know it.

[Abbaddabba 0]

[ Seems to me like the amatuer playing in his first big tourney should be willing to take a few more risks to build chips. I still can't fault Kurt for pushing all in at that spot.

exactly what i'm saying. if you are someone like DN, its not a problem if you fold on the river to a scare card and are short stacked. but when you are an inexperienced amateur, you need to try to get your money in in good spots like these and take the skill out of the game. DN's way is correct if you are DN, but incorrect if you are someone like Kurt, who cannot outplay the table to build his stack back.

I dont think that he was outclassed to a significant enough degree to warrant pushing on the turn by that rationale. Chance plays a big enough part that kurt (probably) could have gotten a long way with a hot streak of cards despite the fact that a lot of them are pros.

[Smasharoo 0]

Yeah, I'm actually super-surprised that you have that stereotype, Smash...Not a valid stereotype at all, really...Completely unwarranted...You're a sweetheart, and everyone should know it.If everyone would realize how great I am, I wouldn't have to point out tha they'remorons so much.Hardly my fauly, is it?Haha.

[PrtyPSux 0]

Yeah, I'm actually super-surprised that you have that stereotype, Smash...Not a valid stereotype at all, really...Completely unwarranted...You're a sweetheart, and everyone should know it.If everyone would realize how great I am, I wouldn't have to point out tha they'remorons so much.Hardly my fauly, is it?Haha.

r u drunk?

[flyingmoose 0]

One thing that nobody's mentioned (that I've read -- there are about 984285 pages on this) is that any J or 10 on the river will kill his action. I still lean toward a call over a push, and I think the math agrees with me. But would I think through the hand well enough to make the best play on the spot? Maybe, maybe not, I've never been in such a high- pressured situation. I think Kurt's line was fine -- an error, yes, but one that is probably quite small by EV calculations. Calling Kurt a moron for taking his line is much more moronic than the actual line, in my opinion. After all, 4/5 of the time, you'd be too busy congratulating Kurt on his success to notice the minor mistake.