Flopping The Second Nuts

[crazykid13 0]

Live 1/2 NL at Motor City CasinoHero has around 350 in play.UTG-2 (~$200) raises to 7HERO (~$350) has KsKc and reraises to 25Button (~$175) calls 25Small blind (~$600) calls 25Big blind (~$175) calls 25UTG-2 calls 185 players to the flop.Not sure if I liked that much action preflop or not, maybe I should've raised more. Stuck with it at this point.Flop comes Kd4h4s.Small blind checks. Big blind checks. UTG-2 checks. Hero checks. Button checks. This is where my debate comes into play. Should I have led out on this flop?Turn 9d.Small blind bets 10. Big blind raises to 30. UTG-2 folds. Hero..?What would everyone suggest is my best play to maximize profit at this point? I'm not sure I exactly love how I played the rest of the hand out, although it could've been worse.

[KoRnholio 2]

You can't be afraid of quads. Raise because it looks like someone has a 4 and will pay you off.

[DunkSB 0]

You can't be afraid of quads. Raise because it looks like someone has a 4 and will pay you off.

My thought is that if somebody is going to pay you off with a 4 here, they're going to do the same on the river. An overcall here invites the SB to call with a much wider range. also there is the possibility he was leading with a 4 and will 3-bet the turn here. I think a raise here only keeps in a very big 4 but likely pushes out hands that would call a decent size bet on the river if you just flat call.

[NoBBiR 0]

I def. don't mind an overcall here, but i think raising a small amount, maybe even a minraise is better. If you flat call and then go bananas on the river it turns your hand face up. Plus a raise gets more out of a diamond draw if SB were to have that (which that little bet looks like). It also bloats the pot, and there is nothing wrong with that when you hold the mortal nuts. You should never even think about 44 here because if you ever run into that situation, it'd just be a good story to tell the kids.

[BuffDan 0]

I probably put in a small to mediumish raise here. With the bet-raise, chances are someone has a 4, but we need to get some more money in the pot if want to stack them. Although with the flop check and turn 3 bet, a thinking player has to be putting us on kings (or maybe nines), so I dunno. This gets to the point that I hate checking flops like that after raising pre; if we had a pocket pair, or AK, or even something like AQ we would bet. Although then again this board is as dry as the come. However, I think with this many players, and a king already on board (so its unlikely one of them can improve to top pair) I think I bet and hope one of them has a four or a pocket pair that they want to call a bet with.Oh and of course I never for one second worry about 44; maybe there is a stack size large enough where we should worry about it, but this ain't it.

[crazykid13 0]

Well...here's what I opted to do.I flat call the raise of 30. The small blind calls as well.The river brings comes the 4 of clubs.They both check.Hero...?

[NoBBiR 0]

Well...here's what I opted to do.I flat call the raise of 30. The small blind calls as well.The river brings comes the 4 of clubs.They both check.Hero...?

PUKES ON THE TABLE.

[antistuff 0]

checking that flop is really bad.the way you played it raise to like $90 on the turn. you are flipping your cards over at that point but oh well you are going to get paid off or you aren't.

[AaronHoward 0]

checking that flop is really bad.the way you played it raise to like $90 on the turn. you are flipping your cards over at that point but oh well you are going to get paid off or you aren't.

Checking that flop is not bad at all.. its very unlikely someone has a king or even a 4, so a check here is always good i think

[TraptSteve 0]

Betting into 4 people who've called your raise preflop is a huge sign of strength. There are no draws on the flop to price in... the only had that is paying us off at this point is a person holding the 4.

[antistuff 0]

Checking that flop is not bad at all.. its very unlikely someone has a king or even a 4, so a check here is always good i think

no it really bad, mostly because somebody usually doesnt have a king or a 4. get it?

[antistuff 0]

Betting into 4 people who've called your raise preflop is a huge sign of strength. There are no draws on the flop to price in... the only had that is paying us off at this point is a person holding the 4.

since you are raising in late position after a bunch of limpers a whole lot and betting the flop almost without looking at it checking is a huge sign of strength. oh wait, you're not doing that? hmmm......

[navybuttons 15]

Checking that flop is not bad at all.. its very unlikely someone has a king or even a 4, so a check here is always good i think

i disagree.unfortunately, we have the board so crushed we're not really gonna get played with unless someone has a 4. what turn card comes that someone's winning to play for stacks with? (unless they spike their set, but that's such a rare case it can probably be dismissed).if someone 3 bets pre, checks that flop and then 3-bets the turn, there's really only one hand they could have, and i'd pitch A4 like a fastball. if i had A4 and the 3-better pre bet that flop, i'm getting stacked.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Live 1/2 NL at Motor City CasinoHero has around 350 in play.UTG-2 (~$200) raises to 7HERO (~$350) has KsKc and reraises to 25Button (~$175) calls 25Small blind (~$600) calls 25Big blind (~$175) calls 25UTG-2 calls 185 players to the flop.Not sure if I liked that much action preflop or not, maybe I should've raised more. Stuck with it at this point.Flop comes Kd4h4s.Small blind checks. Big blind checks. UTG-2 checks. Hero checks. Button checks. This is where my debate comes into play. Should I have led out on this flop?Turn 9d.Small blind bets 10. Big blind raises to 30. UTG-2 folds. Hero..?What would everyone suggest is my best play to maximize profit at this point? I'm not sure I exactly love how I played the rest of the hand out, although it could've been worse.

smooth call and let SB come along.

[bdc30 0]

I agree to smooth call the turn. Check the river down. No value in a bet there.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Well...here's what I opted to do.I flat call the raise of 30. The small blind calls as well.The river brings comes the 4 of clubs.They both check.Hero...?

bet $40 and see if another PP wants to come along for the ride.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I agree to smooth call the turn. Check the river down. No value in a bet there.

No value in a bet here? Are you out of your mind?They both checked. They're not checking quads. Now if you bet, someone will gladly call you with the case K or even a lesser full house. Checking behind here is WAAAY too weak.As for the rest of the hand, with position, the overcall on the turn is correct 100% of the time IMO unless you really know for sure that one of them has a 4. If you chose to put in a 3rd bet on the turn, you'd get no action from anyone unless they had trips or 9s full.Checking the flop here is probably the right move although I wouldn't mind a bet. If you'd bet AQ or JJ or whatever here, you should be betting AK and AA and Ks full as well. That being said, you do have the deck crippled and if you bet into 4 people, ti's gonna be hard for them to think you're bluffing. The flop check is fine.BET THE RIVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mtdesmoines 3]

No value in a bet here? Are you out of your mind?They both checked. They're not checking quads. Now if you bet, someone will gladly call you with the case K or even a lesser full house. Checking behind here is WAAAY too weak.As for the rest of the hand, with position, the overcall on the turn is correct 100% of the time IMO unless you really know for sure that one of them has a 4. If you chose to put in a 3rd bet on the turn, you'd get no action from anyone unless they had trips or 9s full.Checking the flop here is probably the right move although I wouldn't mind a bet. If you'd bet AQ or JJ or whatever here, you should be betting AK and AA and Ks full as well. That being said, you do have the deck crippled and if you bet into 4 people, ti's gonna be hard for them to think you're bluffing. The flop check is fine.BET THE RIVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agreed. We're losing everything we can to a 4, and stacking the case king and whatever pocket pairs want to party with us here.

[NoBBiR 0]

No one agrees with puking on the table and then asking for an ambulance?

[project240 0]

Checking that flop is not bad at all.. its very unlikely someone has a king or even a 4, so a check here is always good i think

I also disagree. Your line looks so obvious when you check the flop yet are willing to call a raise and reraise on the turn. IMO you have to bet the flop and give someone a chance to play back at you. Either someone has a 4 or they don't... the only turn cards which might give you action are an Ace or someone hitting their set.

[Merby 3]

No one agrees with puking on the table and then asking for an ambulance?

Puking here would be a *huge* tell. *ONLY* pocket kings is puking here. Well... maybe we can do a little reverse tell here. Try doing a mini-puke --just a little bit of bile. I mean, spitting out a little bile (but not too much) will make your opponents think you're holding somethig like TT through QQ, but not as strong as KK. This might let you stack AA, AK, or 99 where they otherwise would have folded to a full-blown purge-fest on the river. If you're really good, you might get the case 4 to fold because your stomach acid reeks of KKK for higher quads or 4-Joker for 5-of-a-kind.

[crazykid13 0]

As played I opted to lead out for 75 on the river, and they both instafolded. SB said she folded a nine, BB said nothing but I assume just a flush draw. Could I really have made any more money off of them giving their holdings? I don't think either would have called a bet on the flop, or would have called a 3-bet on the turn. Perhaps value bet less on the river...? Luckily it was still a value bet since neither of them had the case 4.

[antistuff 0]

Could I really have made any more money off of them giving their ranges?

fyp

[sierradave 0]

Puking here would be a *huge* tell. *ONLY* pocket kings is puking here. Well... maybe we can do a little reverse tell here. Try doing a mini-puke --just a little bit of bile. I mean, spitting out a little bile (but not too much) will make your opponents think you're holding somethig like TT through QQ, but not as strong as KK. This might let you stack AA, AK, or 99 where they otherwise would have folded to a full-blown purge-fest on the river. If you're really good, you might get the case 4 to fold because your stomach acid reeks of KKK for higher quads or 4-Joker for 5-of-a-kind.

I'm reading this at a convention, and just started laughing hard enough that everyone at my table turned around and started staring.I usually bet this flop, since I would often do so with AQ. I then don't get any action and hate myself for it. If checked on the flop, I definitely smooth-call the turn and hope the third flush card hits.As is, you probably weren't making any more money unless you were against opponents who are liable to bluff at big pots. Betting this flop may reek of a c-bet, but many low-stakes opponents are folding anyway.

[NoBBiR 0]

Puking here would be a *huge* tell. *ONLY* pocket kings is puking here. Well... maybe we can do a little reverse tell here. Try doing a mini-puke --just a little bit of bile. I mean, spitting out a little bile (but not too much) will make your opponents think you're holding somethig like TT through QQ, but not as strong as KK. This might let you stack AA, AK, or 99 where they otherwise would have folded to a full-blown purge-fest on the river. If you're really good, you might get the case 4 to fold because your stomach acid reeks of KKK for higher quads or 4-Joker for 5-of-a-kind.

I do agree with most of this. I think the less puke line words better for a bluff though. Like picking up a clear plastic cup and just liberating a small portion of your lunch is a good tell that, if neither of them have a 4, then they'll probably think you have a 4. :)I mean I think straight decorating the pavement here is a genuine tell done not by an actor but a man who just plain hates that card.http://www.c4vct.com/kym/humor/puke.htm