Did I Make The Correct Decision?

[BlubsRoyal 0]

$10 buy in Cash game. 6 handed.Blinds 10c/20cHero($40)BB($12)Button ($20)Preflop: Hero is SB with Ad 8dBB raises to $1, 3 fold, Button calls $1, Hero calls $1Flop: ($3.40) Ah 7d 5dHero checks, BB checks, Button bet $2, Hero calls $2 raises to $5, BB calls $5, Button Goes all in $14, Hero calls $14, BB calls $14.Pot: ($60.40)Showdown: Hero Ad 8dBB As kcButton 7h 7sTurn: 9cRiver: 9d--------------------------------------------------I made my flush but unfortunately it was a 9 giving Button 9's full. I read numerous times about cash games to take more risks than you would in tournament play, i had this in mind when making this particular play in addition I hit top pair and i had alot of outs still. Did i make the right call?

[danc1984 0]

With three way action I do not mind getting it in on this flop at all.

[HijackedAffairs 0]

I get it in there too but I don't know about this taking more risks in cash game play. I don't think that's the case at all but it's hard to know exactly what you are talking about. Could you explain further?

[David_Nicoson 1]

You put your money in fine. You're winning almost your fair share (1/3) of the time as it. If you're not against a set, then you make a nice profit.

f Board: Ah 7d 5dDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 32.835% 32.67% 	00.17% 			   295 			1.50   { Ad8d }Hand 1: 00.831% 00.66% 	00.17% 				 6 			1.50   { AsKc }Hand 2: 66.334% 66.33% 	00.00% 			   599 			0.00   { 7h7s }

[bruitdefond 0]

Your bigger problem here is the preflop call. calling a 10xbb raise with a8s is negEV in most cases. If he's a total nutcase then ok but against your normal player youll be dominated quite a bit once an ace flops. good luck.

[danc1984 0]

Your bigger problem here is the preflop call. calling a 10xbb raise with a8s is negEV in most cases. If he's a total nutcase then ok but against your normal player youll be dominated quite a bit once an ace flops. good luck.

It was 5BB to go preflop. Multiway its a reasonable call.

[BuffDan 0]

I get it in there too but I don't know about this taking more risks in cash game play. I don't think that's the case at all but it's hard to know exactly what you are talking about. Could you explain further?

I think the idea behind it is that in a cash game, as long as you are making a move that is +EV, you should make it, whereas in a tournament you have your tournament life to take into account. For example, if you know you are a 51% favorite, you should have no problem getting all in in a cash game, as you can always rebuy (note that this attitude only works if you are properly bankrolled for the game) but in a tournament if you lose, you are out. That type of thing.

[whiterice714 0]

in regards to cash game play & taking risks - if you can afford it, you can take all the risks you want except it's going to start getting expensive if you keep missing in crucial situations... if you turn into jonny tiltboy & keep reloading over & over while makin donk moves left & right you're going to loose a LOT of REAL money... where as in a tourney you'll only loose your initial buy in & all the chips in front of you... yeah, you wont win the tourney but you might not have even if you won the race that busted you...

[danc1984 0]

in regards to cash game play & taking risks - if you can afford it, you can take all the risks you want except it's going to start getting expensive if you keep missing in crucial situations... if you turn into jonny tiltboy & keep reloading over & over while makin donk moves left & right you're going to loose a LOT of REAL money... where as in a tourney you'll only loose your initial buy in & all the chips in front of you... yeah, you wont win the tourney but you might not have even if you won the race that busted you...

It's not about 'taking more risks' necessarily but rather pushing small equity edges to the limit.

[BlubsRoyal 0]

I think the idea behind it is that in a cash game, as long as you are making a move that is +EV, you should make it, whereas in a tournament you have your tournament life to take into account. For example, if you know you are a 51% favorite, you should have no problem getting all in in a cash game, as you can always rebuy (note that this attitude only works if you are properly bankrolled for the game) but in a tournament if you lose, you are out. That type of thing.

Yep, that's pretty much the jist of what i have read about cash games. Another example of taking risks that i probably wouldn't normaly take in normal tournament play on the same night as the hand i posted above..........heads up - My opponant hit top pair on the flop of A 3 7 he has gone all in for his last $3 into a $9 pot or something, my odds were like 4-1 i'm holding 45, my stack is about $16 i'm on a gut shot i call $3.......i hit the 2 on the turn.....i bust villian..........another hand where i took a risk on that same night with the same player several hands after above hand.........heads up (i can't recall cards but this is the jist of it).........i think he may have hit 2 pair on the flop or something because he has gone all in for $10 (buy in amount). I'm on a flush and straight draw and sitting on $30 or so. I call $10 and hit my flush on the river......i bust villian again.I made those decisions based on maths in consideration of my money, odds & my outs. If he had more than $3 left on that first hand making my odds bad i wouldn't have called. I had the money to call the $3 all in. Had i only had a flush draw on that second hand of course i would have folded. I had about 13 outs?? to hit on 4th and 5th street. Had it been tournament i'd would probably lay down and not call the $10 amount and save my chips but cash is different dynamics. I'm up and have many outs, not a monster draw but ok enough to make that call and profit big if i win.I assume they may have thought i was donkey calling with no reasoning behind my decisions.......i just had to get your opinions to set my mind straight i thought i made some good calls made from a mathematical point of view but 2nd guessed myself when people thought i was nuts for making those calls. I've only been playing for about 9 months and have recently been putting maths into play especialy when deciding on calls.

[mase_gotsem 0]

im playing it pretty much same way here only thing diferant is i might fold preflop

[The President 0]

heads up - My opponant hit top pair on the flop of A 3 7 he has gone all in for his last $3 into a $9 pot or something, my odds were like 4-1 i'm holding 45, my stack is about $16 i'm on a gut shot i call $3.......i hit the 2 on the turn.....i bust villian..........another hand where i took a risk on that same night with the same player several hands after above hand.........heads up (i can't recall cards but this is the jist of it).........i think he may have hit 2 pair on the flop or something because he has gone all in for $10 (buy in amount). I'm on a flush and straight draw and sitting on $30 or so. I call $10 and hit my flush on the river......i bust villian again.I made those decisions based on maths in consideration of my money, odds & my outs.

well in the first case here, although 4:1 odds is quite large, its still not enough for a gutshot straight draw. and you should never make decisions based on the size of your stack in an EV sense. what i mean is, that if it is a negative EV decision, just because you have a large stack doesnt make it a good play. it is still a -EV play. especially in a cash game, since you dont need to bust him out or anything.in this second case, you most likely had the odds to call with such a big draw. (dunno how big the pot is though). But again the fact that you are on $30 should not affect your decision!

[channjalen2003 0]

well in the first case here, although 4:1 odds is quite large, its still not enough for a gutshot straight draw. and you should never make decisions based on the size of your stack in an EV sense. what i mean is, that if it is a negative EV decision, just because you have a large stack doesnt make it a good play. it is still a -EV play. especially in a cash game, since you dont need to bust him out or anything.in this second case, you most likely had the odds to call with such a big draw. (dunno how big the pot is though). But again the fact that you are on $30 should not affect your decision!

He has a double gut draw so basically he is open ended. Getting 4 to 1 odds it is an easy call.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Yep, that's pretty much the jist of what i have read about cash games. Another example of taking risks that i probably wouldn't normaly take in normal tournament play on the same night as the hand i posted above..........heads up - My opponant hit top pair on the flop of A 3 7 he has gone all in for his last $3 into a $9 pot or something, my odds were like 4-1 i'm holding 45, my stack is about $16 i'm on a gut shot i call $3.......i hit the 2 on the turn.....i bust villian.

I think we're correct to call in the vast majority of tournament situations as well.

[whiterice714 0]

i call $3 into a $12 pot on an A 3 7 board w/ 4 5 108% of the time... i dont even think you CAN be a 4:1 dog in that situation (*HU*) even vs AAA... but you're getting 4:1 odds... any 2 or 6 makes you the nuts... if you're vs a lone ace then theoretically you could still hit runner runner for 2 pair or trips... granted that's not what you'd be banking on, but it's still a little sweetener to consider (kinda like the back door FD)as for the other hand, depending on the size of the pot i'm likely not folding that either... but i looooooooooooooove combo / monster draws... depends on the odds you were getting... if there was like $12 in the pot i'm calling all day long... if there was like $3 i'd probably lean towards folding unless i had a personal vendetta vs villian... & even then, you might be able to find better places to take his money esp after he's already said "i'm going all the way w/ this hand" by shoving.. i DO agree w/ the above statements that the size of your stack SHOULD NOT matter in terms of making your decisions... you should always be trying to make the most +EV move you can... dont make a horrible call just cause you have some money to burn - that's how you end up withOUT money to burn.. & all you're going to do is add to your opponents stack & confidence... plus after you worked hard enough to win enough to be in such a position, do you really wanna give it all back in ONE hand making a bad play?

[BlubsRoyal 0]

thanks for the replies gents!!! really proving valuable for the knowledge-bank posting hands on this forum.Your right about not making decisions based on size of stack, but in these three cases it just made my decision less tough i guess knowing i'd still be up $10+ (buy in amount) if i lost any of those hands but should never base decisions on it at all.Could somebody school me on this EV thing, i've read about it briefly when i first started playing but was way over my head back then.again you guys continue to help me improve my game, greatly appreciated.

[BlubsRoyal 0]

It's not about 'taking more risks' necessarily but rather pushing small equity edges to the limit.

please explain?

[David_Nicoson 1]

Could somebody school me on this EV thing, i've read about it briefly when i first started playing but was way over my head back then.

Expected value in general is a probability concept. It's sort of the average result of a random variable.You compute it by multiplying each possible outcome by its probability. For example, what's the expected value of a die roll?EV= (1/6) x 1 + (1/6) x 2 + (1/6) x 3 + (1/6) x 4 + (1/6) x 5 + (1/6) x 6 = 21/6 = 3.5Pot equity in poker is the expected value of how much we collect from the pot due to winning it.So if there's a $100 pot, and we win it 1/4 of the time, our pot equity is $100 x 1/4 = $25.The term EV without qualification in gambling usually means our expected change in net worth due to a particular gamble. It's how much can I expect to win or lose taking this gamble in the long run.EV = pot equity - amount we have to paySuppose we need to call $10 for what will be a final pot of $100 with a 1/4 chance of winning as above.EV = $100 x 1/4 - $10 = +$15On average, we make $15 by making this call.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I think the idea behind it is that in a cash game, as long as you are making a move that is +EV, you should make it, whereas in a tournament you have your tournament life to take into account. For example, if you know you are a 51% favorite, you should have no problem getting all in in a cash game, as you can always rebuy (note that this attitude only works if you are properly bankrolled for the game) but in a tournament if you lose, you are out. That type of thing.

Minor quibble with the philosophy ... if we play enough tournaments, should it matter? Not only that, but isn't anything that can help us stack up in a tourney +EV?

[David_Nicoson 1]

Minor quibble with the philosophy ... if we play enough tournaments, should it matter? Not only that, but isn't anything that can help us stack up in a tourney +EV?

Usually chip EV and tournament EV are equivalent at the beginning of the tournament, but the payout schedule can put a premium on survival at certain points at the end.

[irishguy 14]

With the flop the hand pretty much plays it self. IMO if you are folding hands like this in tournament situations its a leak(especially early). The idea in cash games as stated is to maximize your value buy pushing any equity edge. This is also ideal in tournaments in individual hands. However this begins to change in tournies as blinds increase and ante's are added. Plays that become essential for either survival or chip accumulation would never be optimal in a cash game setting.

[BuffDan 0]

Usually chip EV and tournament EV are equivalent at the beginning of the tournament, but the payout schedule can put a premium on survival at certain points at the end.

This is much more correct than my previous post, as it really boils down to Chip EV being not equal to tournament EV (due to the fact that the one with all the chips does not win all of the money) as the cause of strategy differences between cash games and tourneys.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Top Pair + Nut Flush Draw is usually a good all in, no matter what they hold. Also: For future reference, make sure stack sizes = betting amounts/all in totals.