Merby 3 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 I pick up JJ in SB. I have been playing 35/25-ish (don't know the exact numbers) at this table, because I have been hitting a *sick* run of nice hands. Since I have not made it to showdown often, I am probably viewed as LAGgy... possibly even maniac-esk (because whenever I get called, the flop hits me in the face, anyway, so I don't slow down).I watched villian triple-barrell bluff a pre-flop raiser from the BB with A-high, but other than that, he has bee playing 37/7: loose, but not too aggressive.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)UTG ($194)MP ($259.20)Button ($208.15)Hero ($266.75)BB ($180.65)Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J. 3 folds, Hero raises to $6, BB raises to $16, Hero?Call? or Raise? ...I suppose I could also fold, but that didn't cross my mind. Link to post Share on other sites
kouta43 0 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 I pick up JJ in SB. I have been playing 35/25-ish (don't know the exact numbers) at this table, because I have been hitting a *sick* run of nice hands. Since I have not made it to showdown often, I am probably viewed as LAGgy... possibly even maniac-esk (because whenever I get called, the flop hits me in the face, anyway, so I don't slow down).I watched villian triple-barrell bluff a pre-flop raiser from the BB with A-high, but other than that, he has bee playing 37/7: loose, but not too aggressive.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)UTG ($194)MP ($259.20)Button ($208.15)Hero ($266.75)BB ($180.65)Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J. 3 folds, Hero raises to $6, BB raises to $16, Hero?Call? or Raise? ...I suppose I could also fold, but that didn't cross my mind.No way you should fold here. Personally Id call and trsut my postflop skills, but re raising and then assesing if he pushes isnt horrible either, problem is you are oop if you see a flop and the pot will be quite big, just calling keeps the pot while you are smaller oop. Link to post Share on other sites
Money022 0 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Just call and then slow play him when you flop quads. Link to post Share on other sites
Merby 3 Posted July 5, 2007 Author Share Posted July 5, 2007 No way you should fold here. Personally Id call and trsut my postflop skills, but re raising and then assesing if he pushes isnt horrible either, problem is you are oop if you see a flop and the pot will be quite big, just calling keeps the pot while you are smaller oop.LOL, I was joking about the pre-flop fold here... Merely acknowledging that folding (however stupid and weak) *is* still an option. Link to post Share on other sites
fopkins 0 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 I call here based on your image. If you raise, your image could have a large affect on what your opponent's view is on your range (does that make sense?), and this makes it hard for you to play.This is the same post flop, but you'll have more information then. Link to post Share on other sites
Snamuh 0 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Call, hope to hit a set, and don't get stacked on a low card board. I play JJ very cautiously OOP. Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Call, hope to hit a set, and don't get stacked on a low card board. I play JJ very cautiously OOP.Sounds great. Here's the thing. If you just call, then bet the flop when it comes garbage, and he's still playing back with a big raise, you know jacks are no good, so being OOP here can be good. However, it can also be bad if he just raises you on any flop. I agree with Snamuh though, call and take a flop. Link to post Share on other sites
DonkSlayer 1 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 I think calling is no good OOP. Let's repop to $45; the BB's re-raise range against a perceived LAG here is very wide. If the villain still wants to play after our reraise, we'll feel better about putting him on a hand and we can play accordingly.Or, to rephrase, the villain is raising light enough that if you choose to just call with JJ, don't go running with your tail tucked if the flop comes no face cards/no ace. Link to post Share on other sites
krup24 0 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 I think calling is no good OOP. Let's repop to $45; the BB's re-raise range against a perceived LAG here is very wide. If the villain still wants to play after our reraise, we'll feel better about putting him on a hand and we can play accordingly.Or, to rephrase, the villain is raising light enough that if you choose to just call with JJ, don't go running with your tail tucked if the flop comes no face cards/no ace.agreedBB's reraise range can easily be almost any pp, AT or >, even KQ at times. I easily repop this. Link to post Share on other sites
PoppinFresh 0 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 call all day, and let's play some pokah Link to post Share on other sites
simo_8ball 0 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 call all day, and let's play some pokah out of position without the betting lead and with no idea where we areFYP.I don't hate calling, but I think it's worth pointing out that we aren't in a pleasant situation. Link to post Share on other sites
TB17 0 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 FYP.I don't hate calling, but I think it's worth pointing out that we aren't in a pleasant situation.So? If you 4-bet and get called, u arent in a pleasant situationOr if you 4-bet and get raised, you aren't in a pleasant situation either, what is your point?Either way, this isnt a pleasant situation. See a flop, and re-evaluate. No need to 4-bet fold (which is probably what ull end up doing if he shoves) Link to post Share on other sites
Merby 3 Posted July 6, 2007 Author Share Posted July 6, 2007 This is not the line I took in the hand, but let''s humour everyone:Hero calls:Flop: ($32) 2 T K Hero...?BB has the betting initiative. Should I lead or check. If I lead, how much and if I check, is it a clear fold when he inevitably bets? Link to post Share on other sites
fopkins 0 Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Given the call and the fictional results:C/R. Given his preflop raise, I put him on AK-AT most of the time, 88-AA some of the time. Link to post Share on other sites
Merby 3 Posted July 6, 2007 Author Share Posted July 6, 2007 Given the call and the fictional results:C/R. Given his preflop raise, I put him on AK-AT most of the time, 88-AA some of the time.The HERO call preflop is fictional but the flop is the actual flop. I just want to discuss the strategy of calling preflop and facing an ugly flop OOP with JJ when the villian sees me as probably LAGGY/maniac.Yes I played the hand differently --which I will reveal the results later-- but wanted to know how people approach this awkward situation. Link to post Share on other sites
fopkins 0 Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Ok then:Given the fictional call and the results:C/R. Given his preflop raise, I put him on AK-AT most of the time, 88-AA some of the time. Link to post Share on other sites
whiterice714 0 Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 i think check raising would over inflate the pot in this situation... dont forget you're still going to be OOP for the rest of the hand, and you dont even have top pair... in fact, there's a very good chance you're already on a 2 outer, and you have no real information on your opponent what so ever ***other than the fact that he hasn't been aggressive very often, so you can probably credit him w/ large holdings reraising PF*** (also, he most likely views hero as extreemely LAG, and could be thinking hero's making a play here -- highly unlikely cause who the hell steals the blinds in a cash game when it's just blind vs blind?if i'm checking here, i'm just calling - the bet he's putting in no matter what - so i can re evaluate turn... or i'm leading out @ this flop... say a bet of like $18-$20... if he missed the K & isn't holding AA (or i guess a donkey w/ QQ) he's probably got to muck right there letting us take down this pot....*EDIT* i guess he could have tens & have flopped a set too**however a problem in this scenario - what if he just smooth calls...? this hasn't gained us any information about his hand (other than the fact that we're probably beat) and we're still gonna be OOP on the turn & river cards and once again we've aided in inflating the pot w/ marginal holdings... i think if he comes over the top of us here, it's obv we're beat & we can easily get away from our jacks & play the button next hand...i'm interested to see what happened and i'm assuming you 3bet him PF, and he must have called cause you saw the flop... then action on the flop? Link to post Share on other sites
fckthis 0 Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 cautiously take a flop homie. Link to post Share on other sites
Merby 3 Posted July 6, 2007 Author Share Posted July 6, 2007 i think check raising would over inflate the pot in this situation... dont forget you're still going to be OOP for the rest of the hand, and you dont even have top pair... in fact, there's a very good chance you're already on a 2 outer, and you have no real information on your opponent what so ever ***other than the fact that he hasn't been aggressive very often, so you can probably credit him w/ large holdings reraising PF*** (also, he most likely views hero as extreemely LAG, and could be thinking hero's making a play here -- highly unlikely cause who the hell steals the blinds in a cash game when it's just blind vs blind?if i'm checking here, i'm just calling - the bet he's putting in no matter what - so i can re evaluate turn... or i'm leading out @ this flop... say a bet of like $18-$20... if he missed the K & isn't holding AA (or i guess a donkey w/ QQ) he's probably got to muck right there letting us take down this pot....*EDIT* i guess he could have tens & have flopped a set too**however a problem in this scenario - what if he just smooth calls...? this hasn't gained us any information about his hand (other than the fact that we're probably beat) and we're still gonna be OOP on the turn & river cards and once again we've aided in inflating the pot w/ marginal holdings... i think if he comes over the top of us here, it's obv we're beat & we can easily get away from our jacks & play the button next hand...i'm interested to see what happened and i'm assuming you 3bet him PF, and he must have called cause you saw the flop... then action on the flop?Yeah, I'm not too keen on the check-raise on this flop. The villian has been playing passive but has suddenly woken up with a reraise PF. Meanwhile I have been playing LAGGY, so my bets/check-raises will probably be taken with a big grain of salt. We're committing too much money in a situation where we're probably behind (at least there wasn't an A on the flop...) against a player who likes calling a lot. Our only line for the check-raise is that we hope our opponent has exactly QQ, and will fear the K on the flop and fold. Other than that, I don't think that any hand that is beating us will fold here (villian's stats seem a little to loose for us to be sure he can lay down AK or even KQ here: especially if he pegs us as a maniac).I like leading out... except that seems weak. I gave up the betting lead preflop, so the villian would expect me to go for the check-raise if I really liked the flop. Leading out here would smell suspiciously like a blocking bet by a hand like JJ, QQ or maybe even AT or TJ (if he thinks I am *stupid*-loose/aggressive and not ordinary LAG).Obviously check/folding is too weak... I was toying with the stop-and-go option: check/call the flop and then bet any turn. Since he had the betting lead PF, we *expect* him to bet into us on the flop, so if we just call then lead a turn card, his alarm bells might go off. Of course, this will mead we're risking as much money in the hand as the check-raise flop approach, and if the villian had something like AQ and turns an A or 99 and turns a 9, we've just given the pot away. Link to post Share on other sites
Merby 3 Posted July 7, 2007 Author Share Posted July 7, 2007 This thread is dying, so I will post the *actual* results.In the end, I decided to reraise preflop. The BB made a re-REraise allin, and my brain took a 5 minute break while my index finger clicked *call*PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)saw flop|saw showdownUTG ($194)MP ($259.20)Button ($208.15)Hero ($266.75)BB ($180.65)Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J. 3 folds, Hero raises to $6, BB raises to $16, Hero raises to $52, BB raises to $180.65, Hero calls $128.65.Flop: ($361.30) 2, T, K(2 players)Turn: ($361.30) A(2 players)River: ($361.30) 2(2 players)Final Pot: $361.30Results below: BB has Qh Qs (two pair, queens and twos). Hero has Jd Jc (two pair, jacks and twos). Outcome: BB wins $361.30. Link to post Share on other sites
Lavitz 0 Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 This thread is dying, so I will post the *actual* results.In the end, I decided to reraise preflop. The BB made a re-REraise allin, and my brain took a 5 minute break while my index finger clicked *call*PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)saw flop|saw showdownUTG ($194)MP ($259.20)Button ($208.15)Hero ($266.75)BB ($180.65)Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J. 3 folds, Hero raises to $6, BB raises to $16, Hero raises to $52, BB raises to $180.65, Hero calls $128.65.Flop: ($361.30) 2, T, K(2 players)Turn: ($361.30) A(2 players)River: ($361.30) 2(2 players)Final Pot: $361.30Results below: BB has Qh Qs (two pair, queens and twos). Hero has Jd Jc (two pair, jacks and twos). Outcome: BB wins $361.30.I don't mind how you played it. If the guy is running at donkish 37/7 and you seen him 3 barrel then it is safe to say he probably gets a bit too carried away and does stupid things. That and this is a blind v blind battle. Not like he 3 bet our UTG raise. However, once you 4 bet I'm never folding here. Folding after you 4 bet here is a massive leak AINEC, especially considering the situation (blind v blind) and our image. Link to post Share on other sites
Merby 3 Posted July 7, 2007 Author Share Posted July 7, 2007 I don't mind how you played it. If the guy is running at donkish 37/7 and you seen him 3 barrel then it is safe to say he probably gets a bit too carried away and does stupid things. That and this is a blind v blind battle. Not like he 3 bet our UTG raise. However, once you 4 bet I'm never folding here. Folding after you 4 bet here is a massive leak AINEC, especially considering the situation (blind v blind) and our image.It's good to hear that, because immediately after the hand, I was thinking, "Aww crap! I just put my entire stack on the line with JJ against a BB who raised and reraised allin when his PFR% is only 7%! How stupid could I be?!?" Link to post Share on other sites
No_Neck 0 Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 after you 4 bet and he pushes you really are not ahead ever here.... I dunno maybe someone will tell me I am a donkey but I think I fold. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 I pick up JJ in SB. I have been playing 35/25-ish (don't know the exact numbers) at this table, because I have been hitting a *sick* run of nice hands. Since I have not made it to showdown often, I am probably viewed as LAGgy... possibly even maniac-esk (because whenever I get called, the flop hits me in the face, anyway, so I don't slow down).I watched villian triple-barrell bluff a pre-flop raiser from the BB with A-high, but other than that, he has bee playing 37/7: loose, but not too aggressive.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)UTG ($194)MP ($259.20)Button ($208.15)Hero ($266.75)BB ($180.65)Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J. 3 folds, Hero raises to $6, BB raises to $16, Hero?Call? or Raise? ...I suppose I could also fold, but that didn't cross my mind.Don't get frisky with JJ just because you hit a sick run of cards. I like a call/check down unimproved when villain shows a lot of confidence. Link to post Share on other sites
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