Shark527 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB ($25)UTG ($25)Hero (MP) ($24.80)CO ($30.95)Button ($34.15)SB ($61.80)Preflop: Hero is MP with Q , Q 1 fold, Hero bets $1, 1 fold, Button raises to $3.40, 2 folds, Hero raises to $8.40, Button calls $5Flop: ($17.15) 7 , K , 4 (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $18.65, Hero?I don't see leading the flop because AK is in his range, as well as the two bigger pairs to mine. Bet sizing is alright preflop? Only played for 45 minutes 8 tabling tonight so no reads and I had no previous notes on the villian. Link to post Share on other sites
slink 1 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Well I suck at NLHE cash, but I bet $9/$10 on the flop and fold to a raise. As it was played I fold. Does a pot size bet indicate he doesn't have AK, 77, 44? How often does he have JJ here? I think in a tournament I go broke here (and have, lots).Interested to see others' thoughts tho. Link to post Share on other sites
JaoTi 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Bet/folding there is really really bad slink, you then have to call in $8 into $42 so we'd have be behind almost always to make it profitable. I snapcall pretty fast here, you've given us no reads or stats on villain so assuming he's a standard meh reg at 25nl he's most likely going to spazz shove everything that missed this board for fold equity. If he "slowplayed" AA, AK or KK preflop why on earth would they shove this flop? I snapcall expecting to be ahead most of the time.edit: I think re: your pre sizing, I'd make it a touch on the smaller side, like $7.20 probably, just to encourage calls from hands that have no business in the pot and also if we ever 4bet bluff it's a much more manageable size. Link to post Share on other sites
trystero 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 yea I like a call too...I'm a bit spewy in 3bet pots but that's only because everyone else is even worsewhat kings are in his range? wouldn't villain 5-bet shove AK/KK+? this is definitely a weird play for AK. I can kinda see AA flatting, but AK no way, and I don't see AA shoving this board when we look like we have either queens or kings. we're also blocking kq, which is a holding I can see some aggro villains 3-bet/calling, and I think once we get below kq villain doesn't get so shove-happynice hand to post Link to post Share on other sites
slink 1 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 I think you lose control of the hand by checking the flop.Is betting to find out where you are no longer valid as option in cash games? Link to post Share on other sites
Shark527 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 AFter the $8.40 goes in pre, I have $16.40 left in my stack going to the flop.Pot is $17.15 Link to post Share on other sites
KingJames 11 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Is betting to find out where you are no longer valid as option in cash games?Yeah, betting for info is bad. Bet for value. Bet as a bluff. Bet for protection.By checking, we allow the money to get in when he's crushing our face, but we also allow him to bluff, and turn made hands (TT/JJ) into bluffs... Link to post Share on other sites
JaoTi 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 I think you lose control of the hand by checking the flop.Is betting to find out where you are no longer valid as option in cash games? It never was.By checking how are we losing control? By checking we allow worse hands to bet, we can't really ever fold with a 1:1 stack to pot ratio in a 4bet pot. 90% of 4bet flats are with AQ, JJ, TT and occasionally KQ. Like it was mentioned before we have blockers to KQ/AQ so it's most likely an underpair/pure air. If we bet here, we're folding out those air hands and getting calls/shoves on by predominantly hands that beat us, and just makes the hand far less profitable. Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Im drawing a bit of a blank about what he is 3 betting then cold calling a 4 bet with. Ak off seems decently likely, A's or K's is being slowplayed a bit but if you show a 4 bet he probably spazz 5 bets preflop because you clearly showed a lot of interest in the pot, 4's seem so unlikely, 7's are pretty unlikely. It is either Ak off or something like AQ, AJ that missed. My only problem is villain is commiting himself with that bet, he has what 5ish 6ish dollars left. If we had reads we could very easily know what to do here. I think we have to shove because we block most other hands he has that is overplaying themselves here but crush air pretty nicely. The only thing is i would feel really stupid afterwards if he shows up with Ak off and then i would wish i had poker tracker or been playing fewer tables lol! Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Umm. with no real info on villain this is a fold 100% of the time.Only time we can put him on jacks, or AQ is if we know he is capable of making a bet of this nature post flop.what does he put us on with JJ that he can safely bet and beat? Its fold.Looking at this hand more, you almost want to call because villain overbets the pot. But your check doesnt scream weakness at all. Its such a dry board that you could be checking aces even AK here a lotEDIT: I just noticed hero's stack size.. This makes sense as to why villain overbet the pot. (I'm also guessing it was a pretty quick bet.)I dont see villain bluffing much. This is where the read would come in handy. It would be great to know if he just throws out bets as bluffs without any real reason.Or is he capable of putting us on a range. Because if we think he's assiged us a range, I'll go back to my previous reply that its an easy fold. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 what kings are in his range? wouldn't villain 5-bet shove AK/KK+? this is definitely a weird play for AK. I can kinda see AA flatting, but AK no way, and I don't see AA shoving this board when we look like we have either queens or kings.actually. I think you're totally backwards on this. AK flats here way more than AA does. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 AFter the $8.40 goes in pre, I have $16.40 left in my stack going to the flop.Pot is $17.15because of your stack size. this is almost always a hand that has you beat.He is expecting you to call. Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 actually. I think you're totally backwards on this. AK flats here way more than AA does.why? this is villain dependant. AA could flat more because it doesn't wanna lose the hero leading out on flop. AK (in particular AK suited) almost always have to 5 bet to build the pot, flatting just sucks with this hand imo. The problem is this very much changes based on who villain is. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 why? this is villain dependant. AA could flat more because it doesn't wanna lose the hero leading out on flop. AK (in particular AK suited) almost always have to 5 bet to build the pot, flatting just sucks with this hand imo. The problem is this very much changes based on who villain is.because of the betting and our table.we (hero and villain) are only 100bb's deep. Our raise/re-raising is at 50bb's Before villain even closes the action. If villain was to re-pop again its all in IMOwhats he going to do? repop to 13 and then shove the flop for 2/5 the pot?This is why AK flats here way more often. reasoning can be summed up to: The stakes being played, The positional advantage of villain and his willingness to invest pf with AK.since we have no reads we have to eliminate the idea that he values or undervalues AK. We go on the fact that he is a 50nl player, that this is the 4th bet and that he has position on us.Its very likely he has already told himself that if an A or K falls on the flop, he is all in.If Hero checks to him, he is all in.If he misses and Hero shoves, he'll re-examine. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 2 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Yeah, betting for info is bad. Bet for value. Bet as a bluff. Bet for protection.By checking, we allow the money to get in when he's crushing our face, but we also allow him to bluff, and turn made hands (TT/JJ) into bluffs...Protection .... value. I'm not seeing a difference. Link to post Share on other sites
texan_driver 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 I would not have re-raised to $8.40 pre-flop. I think calling the villian's raise to $3.40 is better. I know not everyone agrees with me on that, but that's my style. If you just call the pre-flop bet and see the same flop & villian makes a near pot sized bet on that flop, it's not nearly as difficult to call and see what happens on the turn. It won't cost you your entire stack. For nearly the same amount of money as your pre-flop re-raise, you could get to the turn and have a whole lot more info on the strength of both his and your hands. Just thought I'd provide a different take on this hand. Link to post Share on other sites
Shark527 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 Protection .... value. I'm not seeing a difference.I think the protection bet he's referring to is a probe bet. Value bets, probe bets, bluffs, and semi bluffs are the only reason to put any money in the pot.I would not have re-raised to $8.40 pre-flop. I think calling the villian's raise to $3.40 is better. I know not everyone agrees with me on that, but that's my style. If you just call the pre-flop bet and see the same flop & villian makes a near pot sized bet on that flop, it's not nearly as difficult to call and see what happens on the turn. It won't cost you your entire stack. For nearly the same amount of money as your pre-flop re-raise, you could get to the turn and have a whole lot more info on the strength of both his and your hands. Just thought I'd provide a different take on this hand.I think that is a good opionion since there no reads on the villian. I was 8 tabling for a while waiting for Sons of Anarchy to start and wasting time. Playing more on auto pilot than anything.Given the stakes I play, I see a lot of players putting in stacks with worse hands than QQ. I fully expected villian to either fold or push. I did not see him flatting the bet. Link to post Share on other sites
Shark527 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 EDIT: I just noticed hero's stack size.. This makes sense as to why villain overbet the pot. (I'm also guessing it was a pretty quick bet.)True Link to post Share on other sites
JaoTi 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 LOL Royal. Seriously? Villains are not flatting 4bets with AK, people get it in so light it's basically never AK and is going to be aces slightly more but still almost never. He's a retard, he's not going to shove this flop with the nuts. Nobody would really. He'd check back, bet $4, anything retarded to induce. This is a bluff like 80% of the time and we only need to be correct 35% for it to be a call. Super standard snapcall here.As for flatting pre, flatting 3 bets OOP is basically throwing money away. Okay so the flop comes Kxx and we c/c, then what do we do on any turn to the shove? c/f after putting in half our stack because we're never good? Flatting OOP to a 3bet basically makes us set mine with queens, and I think there's just way too much value in a 4bet against an idiot who is going to flat hands we dominate like JJ and AQ. Link to post Share on other sites
JaoTi 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Just to reiterate, here is a range I've stoved. We're just giving him the standard AQ/JJ/TT as well as KQs and also a few combos of AA/AK (without reads the standard is to shove these pre so I'm removing a number of combos of each).Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 151,470 games 0.031 secs 4,886,129 games/secBoard: Kc 8d 5sDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 71.321% 71.32% 00.00% 108030 0.00 { QQ }Hand 1: 28.679% 28.68% 00.00% 43440 0.00 { AdAs, AhAs, JJ-TT, AQs, KQs, AdKc, AhKc, AhKd, AsKc, AsKd, AQo }And in fact, even if I don't remove any combos of AA/AKText results appended to pokerstove.txt 216,810 games 0.005 secs 43,362,000 games/secBoard: Kc 8d 5sDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 52.431% 52.43% 00.00% 113676 0.00 { QQ }Hand 1: 47.569% 47.57% 00.00% 103134 0.00 { AA, JJ-TT, AQs, KQs, AQo+ }We're still a favourite to win, and well above the breakeven threshold of ~35% Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 LOL Royal. Seriously? Villains are not flatting 4bets with AK, people get it in so light it's basically never AK and is going to be aces slightly more but still almost never. He's a retard, he's not going to shove this flop with the nuts. Nobody would really. He'd check back, bet $4, anything retarded to induce. This is a bluff like 80% of the time and we only need to be correct 35% for it to be a call. Super standard snapcall here.As for flatting pre, flatting 3 bets OOP is basically throwing money away. Okay so the flop comes Kxx and we c/c, then what do we do on any turn to the shove? c/f after putting in half our stack because we're never good? Flatting OOP to a 3bet basically makes us set mine with queens, and I think there's just way too much value in a 4bet against an idiot who is going to flat hands we dominate like JJ and AQ.Are you serious??? You will sit there and seriously say that if you're villain you're stacking off with AK pf.???I have GOT to get back into online poker. Am I the only person capable of playing AK? There is argument to say that given the stakes... maybe 25NL is breeding ground for people who 5bet AK in this spot i dunno.. but all these kids here saying you need to flat with AA and 5bet with AK are too spewy for me to even debate.You 2nd portion is well thought. I agree. flatting 3bets is silly. But saying back to that 1st part about villains never flatting 4bets with AK is just insane. (or rather that people flat AA here, but not AK...also insane)as for the super snapcall and your pokerstoving.. all way off.but i stil like the 2nd portion of this post. Link to post Share on other sites
JaoTi 0 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Thanks for saying it's all way off without any proof of anything sir. You realise that AK is a fistpump shove at any level of online poker right? And I mean any level. 100bb deep it isn't even close with how aggressive the games have become. You can profitably stack off AQ in some spots too. But I don't know many regs that won't get it in with AK 100 deep as a standard.Now please enlighten me on how my stoving is "all way off". Feel free to mess around with the numbers yourself Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Do you pronounce your name "Shawty". Cuz I do. Link to post Share on other sites
JaoTi 0 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Lol, like I have any idea how to pronounce Asian :PShawty sounds pretty gangsta though so we'll go with that Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 because of the betting and our table.we (hero and villain) are only 100bb's deep. Our raise/re-raising is at 50bb's Before villain even closes the action. If villain was to re-pop again its all in IMOwhats he going to do? repop to 13 and then shove the flop for 2/5 the pot?This is why AK flats here way more often. reasoning can be summed up to: The stakes being played, The positional advantage of villain and his willingness to invest pf with AK.since we have no reads we have to eliminate the idea that he values or undervalues AK. We go on the fact that he is a 50nl player, that this is the 4th bet and that he has position on us.Its very likely he has already told himself that if an A or K falls on the flop, he is all in.If Hero checks to him, he is all in.If he misses and Hero shoves, he'll re-examine.in theory i kind of agree with you but it is 25nl people will stick in AK off pre 100+ to almost 150 BB stacks from what i have seen, this to me looks much more like a bluff. At a higher level, your logic would be spot on. I just think you are outleveling yourself on the cold call preflop Link to post Share on other sites
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