Overcard To The Ladies Oop

[tskillz187 0]

At a higher level, your logic would be spot on

No it wouldn't. It is much more aggro as you move up and people will be sticking money in for value much lighter because people bluff much lighter and have better ideas of ranges and such. The lower limits play much more passively and the money is to be made from people hitting the call button too much, not from them raising too often.I kinda think villain has a K here because pple are retarded. But I'm not folding because he shouldn't have a K evah.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Thanks for saying it's all way off without any proof of anything sir. You realise that AK is a fistpump shove at any level of online poker right? And I mean any level. 100bb deep it isn't even close with how aggressive the games have become. You can profitably stack off AQ in some spots too. But I don't know many regs that won't get it in with AK 100 deep as a standard.Now please enlighten me on how my stoving is "all way off". Feel free to mess around with the numbers yourself

You're right, I have no real proof, you also have no proof. we're basing our opinions on how we view the game. for you, AK is a fistpump shove at any level and for me its not.. thats my extent of backing up my comment.As for your stove, its off base because the range you've assigned is too wide. IMO of course..Our "fist pump snapcall" looks more profitable on this flop than I think it is.but again.. thats my opinions. similar to my opinions on AK in this spot.I've stacked off with AK pf in the past,(for 100bb's +) but honestly couldnt tell you when the last time i did that was.It was definitely based on the table and my villains tho. Not and i mean not a standard by any means.

[JaoTi 0]

Well like you said that's based off different experience. And over the last year I've played around 25k hands of 25nl while you've been not playing/playing live (I think?). I think live play is a much different beast and this hand would be much harder to play live, but I think online this is a call every time.

[Royal_Tour 0]

No it wouldn't. It is much more aggro as you move up and people will be sticking money in for value much lighter because people bluff much lighter and have better ideas of ranges and such. The lower limits play much more passively and the money is to be made from people hitting the call button too much, not from them raising too often.I kinda think villain has a K here because pple are retarded. But I'm not folding because he shouldn't have a K evah.

woah... slow down.. what games are we talking now? and lets make sure you arent confusing deeper stacks than 100bb's.skill at higher limits is different than just boldly saying "its more aggro and people value lighter" if this was the case, you could essentially play TAG and beat the game.

[Royal_Tour 0]

I kinda think villain has a K here because pple are retarded. But I'm not folding because he shouldn't have a K evah.

am I the only person in this thread thinking on level 4? I feel like this is a spot were we only beat 1 hand (AQ.) I would love if OP was the villain and wanted to see how we viewed the QQ spot.Edit: I forgot it was 6max.. But still. that changes slightly.. but not enough to really make me change my mind on values.

[droberts 3]

i dont think i shove AK offsuit in preflop to 3bets or 4bets... but AKs , i raise like there's no tomorrow when im 100BB deepEDIT: should i be treating them differently?

[Royal_Tour 0]

Can we at least find out if OP called or folded?this is driving me nuts. I'll admit i know nothing about 25NL online if OP comes here and says he called and villain shows 10,10.

[droberts 3]

if i had to guess i would go with AQ clubs or JJ/1010.

[trystero 0]

6max 25nl online is not even close to full ring live. From what I understand of live FR it's a bit of a nitfest. online 6max, players 3-bet light, they call 3-bets and 4-bets light, and they 5bet shove ak and it's all so very std. To be honest I cannot imagine playing against a 25nl reg here in villain's position and NOT shoving AK.

[JaoTi 0]

woah... slow down.. what games are we talking now? and lets make sure you arent confusing deeper stacks than 100bb's.skill at higher limits is different than just boldly saying "its more aggro and people value lighter" if this was the case, you could essentially play TAG and beat the game.

Given that Tim has played up to 600nl online I think I can safely say for him that he isn't confusing deeper stacks here Give him some credit. Trust us, the game is a lot more aggro than it used to be due to bluff ranges being increased and AK is an auto stack off.And you can't essentially play TAG and beat the game because people handread well enough in a lot of cases that if you never bluff you're never getting value, which is why you have to bluff more, which is why people value lighter. See the cycle?

[JaoTi 0]

Can we at least find out if OP called or folded?this is driving me nuts. I'll admit i know nothing about 25NL online if OP comes here and says he called and villain shows 10,10.

Given that 90% of strat posts are hands the hero loses I'd say that hero either folded or villain flipped over the nuts

[droberts 3]

Given that 90% of strat posts are hands the hero loses I'd say that hero either folded or villain flipped over the nuts

haha for me its backwards.. i always post hands i win and then ask how much of a donk i was.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Given that Tim has played up to 600nl online I think I can safely say for him that he isn't confusing deeper stacks here Give him some credit. Trust us, the game is a lot more aggro than it used to be due to bluff ranges being increased and AK is an auto stack off.And you can't essentially play TAG and beat the game because people handread well enough in a lot of cases that if you never bluff you're never getting value, which is why you have to bluff more, which is why people value lighter. See the cycle?

600nl isnt high stakes.i've played plenty of 2-4NL and 3-6NL online before i decided to play live fulltime. The skill gets better, the aggression increases thats true. but its because people pick up on weakness.Its not a matter of just valuing AK more. TBH, there was plenty of threads about AK from years ago on FCP. lots of really really good insight from players playing real high stakes now.there was basicaly the same debate that we are having now. some say it holds lots of value and should be a shove. while some said the opposite.anyways...

[Royal_Tour 0]

Funny story, I was at venetian playing 2-5nl and JC, (prtypsux) was there playing 5-10NL no cap.he was in for 5k, and had J,9 in MP.JC raised standard, LP re-poped folds around.. JC, re-poped. LP re-poped. then JC make 1 more big raise. LP thought and thought, and finally folded.I just wish i knew what LP had

[Royal_Tour 0]

Jao (babylondonks) and Trys..I was going to ask.. if you were in villains spot would u shove..but i see you guys are already saying yes.Dont you find this "spewy lewis and the news"??what do we beat? AQ, AJ...if u say KQ im going to puke.we are crushed by KK and AA, and a coin flip vs the rest of the range. If people are honestly 4betting light like you say they are, then ok.. but common... I cant see this as a good strategy long term

[trystero 0]

thing is Royal when we're 100bbs deep what are we going to do ? AK is too strong to fold and it sucks to just flat with it, even in position, since we miss the flop so frequently. if we're against aa/kk then, OK, we usually save the rest of our stack by flatting, because we're going to flop TPTK less often due to card combinations, but we're bleeding chips to other hands.if you include AQ in a range of JJ+/AK/AKs then we are ~50%, way too strong to NOT shove.so basically you have to say, "Does villain's range include AQ?" if it does then your equity is high enough to justify a shove. if not then I guess you have to fold if villain's never bluffing because we only have 40% equity. but we cannot be sure that an aggressive regular at 25nl is only going to have jj+/ak here. I see AQ a lot and sometimes something dumb like AJ, and sometimes villain will fold. if he folds ~20% of the time to our shove then it's a breakeven play even against a calling range of qq+/ak. many regs at this limit are too aggressive and try to run you over. I know that's a "weakness" of mine, folding a lot to pressure (e.g. I usually have a high fold to 3-bet%), so when I get AK I'm simply not folding to one player for 100bbs

[JaoTi 0]

Jao (babylondonks) and Trys..I was going to ask.. if you were in villains spot would u shove..but i see you guys are already saying yes.Dont you find this "spewy lewis and the news"??what do we beat? AQ, AJ...if u say KQ im going to puke.we are crushed by KK and AA, and a coin flip vs the rest of the range. If people are honestly 4betting light like you say they are, then ok.. but common... I cant see this as a good strategy long term

We beat QQ, AQ and any 4bet bluffs (and the occasional JJ type hand). AK also has blockers to both aces and kings, which lowers their frequency somewhat. Also keep in mind that even against KK we're about 30% to win iirc, so we're very very rarely drawing dead.

[Lucoo_ 0]

We beat QQ, AQ and any 4bet bluffs (and the occasional JJ type hand). AK also has blockers to both aces and kings, which lowers their frequency somewhat. Also keep in mind that even against KK we're about 30% to win iirc, so we're very very rarely drawing dead.

hero made the 4-bet.No one suggested this, but depending on the villian i might bet/fold something gay like 4-4.5 as it will get a lot of folds out of JJ/TT/AQ. Your range looks a lot like AK/KK/AA so the gay little bet must be hard to call for villian knowing that you are 99% to shove the turn after with your AA/KK/AK.

[Lucoo_ 0]

We beat QQ, AQ and any 4bet bluffs (and the occasional JJ type hand). AK also has blockers to both aces and kings, which lowers their frequency somewhat. Also keep in mind that even against KK we're about 30% to win iirc, so we're very very rarely drawing dead.

hero made the 4-bet.No one suggested this, but depending on the villian i might bet/fold something gay like 4-4.5 as it will get a lot of folds out of JJ/TT/AQ. Your range looks a lot like AK/KK/AA so the gay little bet must be hard to call for villian knowing that you are 99% to shove the turn after with your AA/KK/AK.

[trystero 0]

why do you want to fold out jj/tt/aq?

[Royal_Tour 0]

thing is Royal when we're 100bbs deep what are we going to do ? AK is too strong to fold and it sucks to just flat with it, even in position, since we miss the flop so frequently. if we're against aa/kk then, OK, we usually save the rest of our stack by flatting, because we're going to flop TPTK less often due to card combinations, but we're bleeding chips to other hands.if you include AQ in a range of JJ+/AK/AKs then we are ~50%, way too strong to NOT shove.so basically you have to say, "Does villain's range include AQ?" if it does then your equity is high enough to justify a shove. if not then I guess you have to fold if villain's never bluffing because we only have 40% equity. but we cannot be sure that an aggressive regular at 25nl is only going to have jj+/ak here. I see AQ a lot and sometimes something dumb like AJ, and sometimes villain will fold. if he folds ~20% of the time to our shove then it's a breakeven play even against a calling range of qq+/ak. many regs at this limit are too aggressive and try to run you over. I know that's a "weakness" of mine, folding a lot to pressure (e.g. I usually have a high fold to 3-bet%), so when I get AK I'm simply not folding to one player for 100bbs

are we talking as a general view? We can only really assign a range when we know the type of player we;re against. We can give some general rules of thumb. but you'll agree, that with zero info, its hard to know what villains range would be on a 4bet.correct?My rule has always been, with zero info on villain or the table, I assign a TAG style to them until they prove otherwise. It only takes a rotation to find out how the table has been playingIf OP tells us he has a read on villain and that his range is as wide as we're putting him on, then i agree. Its a shove given the equity. But if we assign villain as a TAG (villain being the hero or OP) then his range might tighten up to AA,KK AKs. and our equity goes way down and becomes a spew.Its the whole innocent until proven guilty. right now you guys are grouping all 25Nl players.. which sorta sounds like guilty until proven innocent..**note. i'm talking about being the villain and looking at hero as an unknown.we cant forget that we're trying to find out if our Hero is viewed as someone with a tight range, making a person with AK want to flat rather than push

[Royal_Tour 0]

We beat QQ, AQ and any 4bet bluffs (and the occasional JJ type hand). AK also has blockers to both aces and kings, which lowers their frequency somewhat. Also keep in mind that even against KK we're about 30% to win iirc, so we're very very rarely drawing dead.

huh? how does AK beat QQ.. we're talking preflop here right.we're looking at this hand from villains POV.. and assigning our Hero as the villain.

[JaoTi 0]

hero made the 4-bet.No one suggested this, but depending on the villian i might bet/fold something gay like 4-4.5 as it will get a lot of folds out of JJ/TT/AQ. Your range looks a lot like AK/KK/AA so the gay little bet must be hard to call for villian knowing that you are 99% to shove the turn after with your AA/KK/AK.

This is from villains perspective facing the 4bet. And why on earth do we want to fold out those hands?It's flipping against queens, which makes it approximately neutral EV. The other thing to keep in mind is that if you take AK out of your pre-flop shoving range, then you're left with only aces and kings (and perhaps queens, though if you're shoving queens and not AK it's pretty LOL) which means you're going to get A TON less action with those hands.You also lose a ton of money flatting AK because when an Ace or King flops you're not getting any action from worse hands, and if you are, they're calling a shove anyway. Meanwhile you always get stacked by hands that beat you.

[SCS 0]

--- 575,334,144 games 0.719 secs 800,186,570 games/secBoard: Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 39.594% 19.26% 20.33% 110831016 116968584.00 { AKs, AKo }Hand 1: 60.406% 40.08% 20.33% 230565960 116968584.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }---If villain shoves over hero's 4 bet he's risking 21.40 to win a pot of 28.55 if we callif we fold villain wins 12.1528.55(.3959) - 21.40(.6041) = 11.30 - 12.93 = -1.63ev of a shove for villain if we call is -$1.63x = times we fold1-x = times we call12.15x + -1.63(1-x) = 012.15x -1.63 + 1.63x = 013.78x = 1.63x = 0.118If we are 4 bet bluffing 12% of the time, and calling a 5 bet shove with QQ+, or AK, then shoving AK over the 4 bet is profitable.

[Shark527 0]

Can we at least find out if OP called or folded?this is driving me nuts. I'll admit i know nothing about 25NL online if OP comes here and says he called and villain shows 10,10.

I thunked bout it for ten seconds(ish) and folded. I quit my session ten minutes after and never really got a read on the villian. He never really got out of line that I would have noticed from bouncing back and forth from tables so I would assign him more of a tighter image.