JaoTi 0 Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 This is like my 15th hand at the table, villain is an unknown, 0/0 over 15 hands. I searched him though and he's 6 tabling 1/2. A pack of feral cows chewed their cuds for .0043 seconds to convert this handFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $1/$2 ante $0.30 - 6 playersBB: $130.45 UTG: $460.55 UTG+1: $241.40 CO: $411.70 (Hero)Button: $400.00 SB: $208.10 Preflop: ($4.80) Hero is CO with (6 players)UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $6, Hero calls $6, Button raises to $26, 3 folds, Hero calls $20Flop: ($62.80) (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $40, Hero calls $40Turn: ($142.80) (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $80, Hero calls $80River: ($302.80) (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $253.70, and is all in Link to post Share on other sites
dead money 1 Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 This is like my 15th hand at the table, villain is an unknown, 0/0 over 15 hands. I searched him though and he's 6 tabling 1/2. A pack of feral cows chewed their cuds for .0043 seconds to convert this handFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $1/$2 ante $0.30 - 6 playersBB: $130.45 UTG: $460.55 UTG+1: $241.40 CO: $411.70 (Hero)Button: $400.00 SB: $208.10 Preflop: ($4.80) Hero is CO with (6 players)UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $6, Hero calls $6, Button raises to $26, 3 folds, Hero calls $20Flop: ($62.80) (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $40, Hero calls $40Turn: ($142.80) (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $80, Hero calls $80River: ($302.80) (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $253.70, and is all in I maybe fold pre. Probably fold on the turn and def. fold on the river. If he is 6 tabling then there is little to no chance he is three barreling here. Link to post Share on other sites
trystero 0 Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 tempted to call river because he has to show up w/aa/kk/tt and uh not likelyI def fold pre to his 3-bet, though...OOP and deep w/ a hand that has horrible RIO. could you explain why you had called? it seems like a pretty big mistake actually considering you don't know much about villain, and what you do know of him strikes you as a multitabling hudbot. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 This is like my 15th hand at the table, villain is an unknown, 0/0 over 15 hands. I searched him though and he's 6 tabling 1/2. A pack of feral cows chewed their cuds for .0043 seconds to convert this handFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $1/$2 ante $0.30 - 6 playersBB: $130.45 UTG: $460.55 UTG+1: $241.40 CO: $411.70 (Hero)Button: $400.00 SB: $208.10 Preflop: ($4.80) Hero is CO with (6 players)UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $6, Hero calls $6, Button raises to $26, 3 folds, Hero calls $20Flop: ($62.80) (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $40, Hero calls $40Turn: ($142.80) (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $80, Hero calls $80River: ($302.80) (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $253.70, and is all in with no reads on villain, i'm folding preflop.and then as played, i'm folding the turn.we're only beating QQ, JJ AJ or chopping with AQ. so i'm not digging the odds.and with no reads its hard to say how he might play QQ on that board. would he purposely turn it into a bluff thinking you have exactly what you have?its almost always a fold on the turn. Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 i fold pre or isolate 3 bet based on what i know about UTG, fold to his 3 bet and or 4 bet pre we don't wanna play this hand OOP fold turn, def fold river we are just so crushed here, and if he is multitabling then his preflop action is even more strong and we could have folded pregoal of multitablers is to probe and play small, they tend to play very TAG Link to post Share on other sites
Merby 3 Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Easy fold pre Link to post Share on other sites
JaoTi 0 Posted November 22, 2009 Author Share Posted November 22, 2009 lol wat, 200 deep against a player who is squeezing almost any two cards here? You can definitely fold pre, but it isn't 100% the best move by any stretch of the imagination. His squeeze range that deep in position includes a ton of worse hands, ainec. You can definitely call knowing that you can just c/c down and let him barrel into you. 6 tabling is far from a 'hudbot' too, easily few enough tables to be making some sort of move.You know you really can't use that stuff as a tell at 200nl. These answers are so robotic and focusing on absolutely nothing of substance. "Oh no he 6 tables he absolutely must be playing small ball." LOL. The things I'm focusing on in this hand are that he sized turn really small and there is only one combo remaining of AA/KK. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 lol wat, 200 deep against a player who is squeezing almost any two cards here? You can definitely fold pre, but it isn't 100% the best move by any stretch of the imagination. His squeeze range that deep in position includes a ton of worse hands, ainec. You can definitely call knowing that you can just c/c down and let him barrel into you. 6 tabling is far from a 'hudbot' too, easily few enough tables to be making some sort of move.You know you really can't use that stuff as a tell at 200nl. These answers are so robotic and focusing on absolutely nothing of substance. "Oh no he 6 tables he absolutely must be playing small ball." LOL. The things I'm focusing on in this hand are that he sized turn really small and there is only one combo remaining of AA/KK.why would you assume that? I mean you said you have no reads. You can assume he mght squeeze, but not really good enough reason to call.raise or fold then. flatting leaves us in the middle of a busy street with no way out. Link to post Share on other sites
Biff Goods 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I'll admit I am not very good at 200nl however...After UTG folds can we 4bet/fold to a shove here? Seems to me that if he is squeezing he folds and if he has it then he tells us by putting in a 5th bet. I don't know what the EV comes out to be but it definitely plays easier being out of position with (to me) one of the worsts hand to play out of position with. Link to post Share on other sites
JaoTi 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 Well given he's 6 tabling I have to assume he's a reg who has some idea what he's doing, because he hasn't moved down to 100nl yet. And as a reg this is a really good spot to squeeze when you're deep and have position. He can definitely have better hands than mine, but he also definitely have worse. By raising I fold out every single hand I beat and get called/shoved on by every hand I lose to. There isn't a hand I can get value from except for maybe maybe maybe AJ. Raising here is only raising 'to find out where you're at' which is a big big mistake Link to post Share on other sites
JaoTi 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 I'll admit I am not very good at 200nl however...After UTG folds can we 4bet/fold to a shove here? Seems to me that if he is squeezing he folds and if he has it then he tells us by putting in a 5th bet. I don't know what the EV comes out to be but it definitely plays easier being out of position with (to me) one of the worsts hand to play out of position with.We're 200 deep, I really don't like 4betting, and again this is 4betting to find our where we're at. Why would we want to backraise when we rep really really really narrow and they can play perfect IP? This is raising 'to find out where we're at' again, and we're also not considering what possible hand we can rep by backraising. Link to post Share on other sites
Biff Goods 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 We're 200 deep, I really don't like 4betting, and again this is 4betting to find our where we're at. Why would we want to backraise when we rep really really really narrow and they can play perfect IP? This is raising 'to find out where we're at' again, and we're also not considering what possible hand we can rep by backraising.Yah makes sense...I was more or less asking and not so much assuming that this was an optimal play. I was assuming since UTG opened we were not repping anything... we were more or less turning our hand face up and declaring "I think you are full of shit." but I really didn't think that far ahead...it's an easy shove for Villain with ATC.edit: wow....FCP didn't edit out my "shit" Link to post Share on other sites
JaoTi 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 Yeah it's a relatively sexy shove by him if he does that. Of course I will flat aces sometimes in that spot if I know that somebody behind me is really squeeze happy, but the person behind me doesn't know that and I have no info on the person behind me either; except I feel that when he does squeeze it's often as a bluff. And sometimes he might even flat the 4bet which would make me cry Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 And sometimes he might even flat the 4bet which would make me cry I think you mean it would make you triple barrel bluff, unless you hit, then you'd c/c. Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Also I don't think his sizing is a "tell" or w/e. I think he sized everything up pretty well, even from value stand point, maybe liek $88 on turn instead to make river slightly smaller, but he's not too worried about you flatting him OOP with suited connectors or something. So if he has AK/AA/KK he needs to try and get you to call with your 1 pair holdings and just pray you decide to look him up.How bad does board have to come after you flop top pair for you to fold? Link to post Share on other sites
JaoTi 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 I think you mean it would make you triple barrel bluff, unless you hit, then you'd c/c.Yep, that's the one Also I don't think his sizing is a "tell" or w/e. I think he sized everything up pretty well, even from value stand point, maybe liek $88 on turn instead to make river slightly smaller, but he's not too worried about you flatting him OOP with suited connectors or something. So if he has AK/AA/KK he needs to try and get you to call with your 1 pair holdings and just pray you decide to look him up.How bad does board have to come after you flop top pair for you to fold?Well I think I mentioned it before, but I still think it's too small and probably more bluffy than say $90, which makes a river shove more sexy. The shove on the river seemed way closer to pot at the time too. I assume because rake was taken out or I can't read or something. And what is 'folding top pair'? I've never heard of it. Is that where you click call even faster than normal? Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Well given he's 6 tabling I have to assume he's a reg who has some idea what he's doing, because he hasn't moved down to 100nl yet. And as a reg this is a really good spot to squeeze when you're deep and have position. He can definitely have better hands than mine, but he also definitely have worse. By raising I fold out every single hand I beat and get called/shoved on by every hand I lose to. There isn't a hand I can get value from except for maybe maybe maybe AJ. Raising here is only raising 'to find out where you're at' which is a big big mistakedude, you're talking backwards. UTG folds, you 4bet, villain folds.. you scoop pot = sweet. are you really trying to get cute with AQ OOP vs an unknown?? seriously? you need to re-examine this. (and the excuse that his squeeze range is wide, is silly. putting him on a wide range doesnt help us with EV) Link to post Share on other sites
JaoTi 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 It isn't always, but it's normally an indication. I have met the odd multitabling fish, who are gifts from heaven. And I am certainly not talking backwards.We don't credibly rep any hands by 4betting, BTN folds sometimes sure, but they also flat or 5bet sometimes too because I don't rep much and people hate to fold. So I am losing all value with AQ and turning it into a bluff. Our EV is higher not 4betting in my mind, and I think that's relatively clear that in terms of EV it's probably fold/flat (both close and stylistic a lot) >>>>> 4bet. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 It isn't always, but it's normally an indication. I have met the odd multitabling fish, who are gifts from heaven. And I am certainly not talking backwards.We don't credibly rep any hands by 4betting, BTN folds sometimes sure, but they also flat or 5bet sometimes too because I don't rep much and people hate to fold. So I am losing all value with AQ and turning it into a bluff. Our EV is higher not 4betting in my mind, and I think that's relatively clear that in terms of EV it's probably fold/flat (both close and stylistic a lot) >>>>> 4bet.if he flats your 4bet "because people dontlike to fold" you can still assign the same range to villain as you were doing previously by flatting his "squeeze"You're not turning it into a bluff, because like you said. a lot of people flat here, but what you are doing is folding to a 5bet because we're almost certainly way behind.There are optimal lines for this hand, and the way you played it was none. Thats my 2 cents. You are blindly throwing money into this pot with level 2 thinking.you've assigned him a wide range because he oculd have been executing a squeeze. and now you're call stationing your way to a showdown hoping he'll turn over the wide range you are praying for.thats all this hand is.i also stand by my previous notion of folding pf Link to post Share on other sites
JaoTi 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 I really don't understand what you're trying to say here Royal. You're working from at least as many blind assumptions as I am. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I really don't understand what you're trying to say here Royal. You're working from at least as many blind assumptions as I am.I suggested, fold pf. but as played. fold the turn.then you said, folding pf was pointless, because "we're 200bbs deep and this is almost always a squeeze"I personally dont like the situation, because i have no control of the hand really.When i play NL cash, i look to have control of every pot i enter. Maybe i'm missing something about this hand. do you want to go through your indepth thought process? there has to be more to it than what you've used as reasoning for the call stationing. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I'm gonna go out on a limb and say You called the river shove and villain had air.which makes your point of this being a squeeze a valid reason to why you should do what you did... i dunno. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Dave i see you reading.weigh in please i'd like to know your opinions. Link to post Share on other sites
David_Nicoson 1 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 It's a fold preflop for me. I haven't played with an ante or really 6-max much, but I think the pressure to play fast preflop by that structure is offset by somewhat deep stacks. As played, we're hoping to make top pair good kicker, we make it, and our path is not clear. Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Meh, our path is pretty clear. If you call pf here you're felting your top pair hand unless it comes like 4 straight or 4 flush. You just c/c and let him have rope, I don't love the pf call, but I don't play on Tilt and maybe the games are much more aggro than on AP. My default would not be to assume button would squeeze here. I also don't think it's a great spot to squeeze, UTG+1 has a pretty strong range. I dunno I'm vvvv passive pf. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now