2 4 Nl, 6 Max, Huge Decision On The Turn

[Roberts2003 0]

i need to know results.- Jordan

hahahaahhi sm drnkandhe had 78 i wonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnyayai love u alllllllllllllll

[danau 0]

hahahaahhi sm drnkandhe had 78 i wonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnyayai love u alllllllllllllll

+EV obviously.

[danc1984 0]

hahahaahhi sm drnkandhe had 78 i wonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnyayai love u alllllllllllllll

I don't pretend to be any good at the game but that guy is horrible. And calling the flop and turn bets with a pair of 9s considering the board and the action just seems like a poor play to me. I can't see how it would win you money in the long-term. This time you caught him making a ridiculous move, but surely 9 times out of 10 the villain will have at the very worst a strong ace or better pocket pair here.

[danau 0]

A striking similarity to his other posts.Hero/Retarded calldowns that hold up. Must be fun parsing 30k hands for 5 or so to post.

[Jordan 1]

werent u playing fulltime for a living?

yea, but student as well for a time.got in some trouble, had a 11k downswing, took a big break...lived (living) off the roll now, and did a little travel.idk though, in hindsight...could I have foreshadowed what the 'online legal situation' would do I may have not taken as big a break...but in other cases the break was good and prob saved my brain. trying to get back though...kinda..just still don't know if i wanna put 10k back online (until there is more clarity..whatever that means).- Jordan

[Naismith 0]

Nice slowplay, I guess. Way to trap him for all his chips.

[Roberts2003 0]

alight i am still drunk but i do want to ask you guys somethingeveyr post i make, i ask specifically:WHAT IS THEIR RANGE??????????no one ever answers it, everyone is too busy telling me how awful of a player i am.....and by the way....if anyone wants to play me heads up, i will play you at any limt you wantseriouslyon this hand, just think about it for a second and stop thinking about how to bitterly criticize me..........why WHY would he bet this much if he had ANYTHING but a flush draw or 78???? and its easy for anyone to read this and be like, oooh ill play like this against you when i have the nuts...but that is so hypotheticla and so unrealistic. if its the $ that is the problem,everyne imagine that this is play $. EVERYONE IMAGINE IT. seriously, if someone had you beat here, why WHY would they bet that much $ on the turn???? if someone has an ace here, they do not put me all in, they bet about 150, and i fold. i read him great, and it scares me how many bitter people there are that love to just put the guy who made a great read down. poker is a peoples game. never forget that.

[DCJ001 0]

What kind of a forum is it when a "so called" mod says:

I didn't say to fold, I asked for your reasoning.Stop acting like a douchebag.

The op is looking for guidance and he gave his reasoning when he said:

are you serious?????flop comes 3 6 A. i have 99. very very very clearly he is going to con bet eveyr flop here. are you the type of player that just folds 99 to KK here automatically when an ace hits?? because i am not. i think that folding here is terrible.

I question the preflop call with a mid pair. I usually call no more than 10% of an all in bet in the hopes of flopping a set. With no flopped set, the A on the flop, the C bet, and the likelihood that villain has an A or a bigger pair than 99, I would fold on the flop.If you knew that you were going to eventually call all in, a better play would have been to raise all in on the flop in the hopes that villain would lay down KK, QQ, etc.

[Naismith 0]

on this hand, just think about it for a second and stop thinking about how to bitterly criticize me..........why WHY would he bet this much if he had ANYTHING but a flush draw or 78????

Because you're a call station. Because he's bluffing with a hand that three-bets preflop hoping to push you off a bad ace, like QQ or KK. Because he thinks he needs to win every hand and is worried that you're drawing and will beat his monster.Here's the three-bet preflop range:AK, AQ, KK, QQ, JJ and then about 10 percent of the time, a bluff.There's not a single person here that isn't interested in helping everyone become a better player. No one is picking on you. You just don't post strategy hands. You post, Look-At-How-Awesome-I-Am hands, even though none of the hands you choose to write about prove you to be anything more than what I said above...a calling station.EDIT: Okay, I'm not quite done.I invite you to poll every single top player on this site. Ask Acid, JC, Loosh, etc. Hell, see if you can get Daniel to respond. Tell them your, "Folding 99 here is terrible" line and see if even one person agrees with you. You'll get zero people. You raised preflop and you were re-raised preflop. If you think your nines are good, push it there. If you think he's ahead of you but will be scared by the ace, raise the flop. The single worst play you can make is calling the bet on the flop. Ask 200 poker pros and 900 will agree. You blindly called down and got lucky.

[Jordan 1]

it's not really this hand...it's every hand you've posted.I told you, if he had a str8 draw I'd stfu and say you made a good 'read' again. You did. Good. I'm glad it worked.That being said, play enough HU and make this call and his "range" has you crushed, usually. The overbet does look odd, but you can't assume that just cuz he overbets here it's air. If you said, hey I played x amount of hands with this guy, he overbet bluffed me a few times and showed...then this call makes a little more sense.Otherwise, keep playing donks. That's what I do HU. Challenging "good" players to HU matches is one of the dumbest things to do. GL with that.- Jordan

[Royal_Tour 0]

yea, but student as well for a time.got in some trouble, had a 11k downswing, took a big break...lived (living) off the roll now, and did a little travel.idk though, in hindsight...could I have foreshadowed what the 'online legal situation' would do I may have not taken as big a break...but in other cases the break was good and prob saved my brain. trying to get back though...kinda..just still don't know if i wanna put 10k back online (until there is more clarity..whatever that means).- Jordan

ya man, i hear you. I'm in a situation myself, quit my job, was planning to go back to school, now second guessing everything. I almost feel like moving out of northamerica and clearing my head

Because you're a call station. Because he's bluffing with a hand that three-bets preflop hoping to push you off a bad ace, like QQ or KK. Because he thinks he needs to win every hand and is worried that you're drawing and will beat his monster.Here's the three-bet preflop range:AK, AQ, KK, QQ, JJ and then about 10 percent of the time, a bluff.There's not a single person here that isn't interested in helping everyone become a better player. No one is picking on you. You just don't post strategy hands. You post, Look-At-How-Awesome-I-Am hands, even though none of the hands you choose to write about prove you to be anything more than what I said above...a calling station.EDIT: Okay, I'm not quite done.I invite you to poll every single top player on this site. Ask Acid, JC, Loosh, etc. Hell, see if you can get Daniel to respond. Tell them your, "Folding 99 here is terrible" line and see if even one person agrees with you. You'll get zero people. You raised preflop and you were re-raised preflop. If you think your nines are good, push it there. If you think he's ahead of you but will be scared by the ace, raise the flop. The single worst play you can make is calling the bet on the flop. Ask 200 poker pros and 900 will agree. You blindly called down and got lucky.

I couldnt have said this better

[Jordan 1]

Because you're a call station. Because he's bluffing with a hand that three-bets preflop hoping to push you off a bad ace, like QQ or KK. Because he thinks he needs to win every hand and is worried that you're drawing and will beat his monster.Here's the three-bet preflop range:AK, AQ, KK, QQ, JJ and then about 10 percent of the time, a bluff.There's not a single person here that isn't interested in helping everyone become a better player. No one is picking on you. You just don't post strategy hands. You post, Look-At-How-Awesome-I-Am hands, even though none of the hands you choose to write about prove you to be anything more than what I said above...a calling station.

HU preflop ranges should be wider.Including some funky hands like T9s JQ, KT, KJ AJ AT A9/8, i've seen worse aces play this way too (pf). f me, it's not HU. Ok, i'd still put some funy hands in the range, but less...like i'd take out A9/A8 unless you were really lag pf and he just wanted to take it down pf. i really don't know though..i wasn't there.flop play is kinda bleh...i mean it is HU, but the only reason i'd call this flop is to hopefully get to a showdown, as he c/d his UI KQ KJ, or what have you. 6 max if i call here it's still for the same reasons, but being 6 max this flop call is worse now, i just forgot it was 6 maxI don't know how many hands OP been playingi with this guy..but if this was just one of those, he has a str8 draw just cuz he overbet it 'read' and not really anything based on past experiences...bleh, it'll turn into spewage eventually.- Jordanstill be nice to know if you'd seen him overbet with air before, or with made, or strongish hands./

[Roberts2003 0]

jesus, alright, i am NOT trying to start conflict or do brag posts. my god. i guess no one agrees with me that he can possibly have air here, and just assume he has me crushed. this is not a FREAKING brag post, and neither are my other ones. why is everyone so fu.cking bitter on this site. the next topic i start will be a standard normal post where i fold KK when the board is A 4 6. will everyone like that?????

[Royal_Tour 0]

jesus, alright, i am NOT trying to start conflict or do brag posts. my god. i guess no one agrees with me that he can possibly have air here, and just assume he has me crushed. this is not a FREAKING brag post, and neither are my other ones. why is everyone so fu.cking bitter on this site. the next topic i start will be a standard normal post where i fold KK when the board is A 4 6. will everyone like that?????

NO. we arent saying he CANT have air. He very well couldwe are saying that he has air here less often than anything that beats you. Furthermore, if you did put him on air, why are you just smoothcalling the flop?do u want him to catch up?calling here in this spot is like crossing a busy street and stopping in the middle of the road. It just doesnt make sense

[Naismith 0]

jesus, alright, i am NOT trying to start conflict or do brag posts. my god. i guess no one agrees with me that he can possibly have air here, and just assume he has me crushed. this is not a FREAKING brag post, and neither are my other ones. why is everyone so fu.cking bitter on this site. the next topic i start will be a standard normal post where i fold KK when the board is A 4 6. will everyone like that?????

Bro, it's not that he can't have air. Obviously, this hand proves that to be untrue. It's that the vast majority of the time, you're drawing to two outs. Let's say 90 percent of the time, you're drawing to two outs and ten percent of the time, he has six outs. Do you see how this isn't a profitable play?Also, do you understand that there's a world of difference between KK and 99 on an ace-high board? HE COULD BE BLUFFING WITH HANDS YOU'RE BEHIND!

[Jordan 1]

jesus, alright, i am NOT trying to start conflict or do brag posts. my god. i guess no one agrees with me that he can possibly have air here, and just assume he has me crushed. this is not a FREAKING brag post, and neither are my other ones. why is everyone so fu.cking bitter on this site. the next topic i start will be a standard normal post where i fold KK when the board is A 4 6. will everyone like that?????

i have hands like you've posted.it's a style thing really...best kept to yourself.you know why you do the things you do. Why do you care what we think?ive had hands where i've done the exact thing that opponent did with the nuts, and with air, but I dont post those hands, they don't really add much to strat...except...me showing a sick play, or sick read i made.I mean, you posted this hand, and got replies. Most of the time, you're beat here. Just cause you won this hand doesn't mean all that much. Great, I'm glad you won.I wouldn't post this hand, personally, for anything other reason to receive praise. Not cause I want to teach other people "strat" and how to call all ins with an underpair, even if the bet looks fishy. THat's just something you may do here and there, and you know why. It's hard to teach, or explain that to others...and really strategically is kinda pointless in my opinion.Anyways, i'm about to crash.- Jordan

[Royal_Tour 0]

This thread / OP reminds me of the type of person who cold calls down small pockets vs a big draw that busted, and then says something like "well i had a feeling, and look like i got the chips... so i must be doing something right"

[Roberts2003 0]

Bro, it's not that he can't have air. Obviously, this hand proves that to be untrue. It's that the vast majority of the time, you're drawing to two outs. Let's say 90 percent of the time, you're drawing to two outs and ten percent of the time, he has six outs. Do you see how this isn't a profitable play?Also, do you understand that there's a world of difference between KK and 99 on an ace-high board? HE COULD BE BLUFFING WITH HANDS YOU'RE BEHIND!

ok ok, that might be true on your last sentence.....but ok, lets say that is true....do ANY of those hands bet all in on the turn???? no, they dont. not at all. why would ANY hand bet all on on the turn???? please god somone answer me on the turn play and stop telling me how much i suck. my god. what hand bets all in on the turn???? what????? not 10 10 to KK thats for sure. someone answer me here logically, and i will respectfully listen to you.

[Jordan 1]

This thread / OP reminds me of the type of person who cold calls down small pockets vs a big draw that busted, and then says something like "well i had a feeling, and look like i got the chips... so i must be doing something right"

I mean...idk, this has got to be one of those rare spots to do this. God knows I've done and been wrong, and been right before...but I still don't think it validates a post in strat. It's a read based thing, and really hard to post your read with the table.This is like an extreme case...and I dont like to say there are absolutes in poker, and I won't here..but I think this is one of the more extreme hands where making this call is really quite volatile..cause to often he'll be "bluffing" with TT or something, and you've made a huuuge mistake...cause making these kind of calls are just usually not long-term winning decisions. but, whatever. what do i know.- Jordan

[Naismith 0]

ok ok, that might be true on your last sentence.....but ok, lets say that is true....do ANY of those hands bet all in on the turn???? no, they dont. not at all. why would ANY hand bet all on on the turn???? please god somone answer me on the turn play and stop telling me how much i suck. my god. what hand bets all in on the turn???? what????? not 10 10 to KK thats for sure. someone answer me here logically, and i will respectfully listen to you.

I have answered you. Jordan said the same thing. Someone who has seen you make your "big calls". Someone who thinks you have a hand like AT and will fold. Someone who thinks you have a hand like AQ and will call their AK. Someone who has a big hand but is playing above their means and doesn't want to get sucked out on. Someone who re-raised with, say, 66 and thinks you have a strong ace and knows you like to make hero calls.Essentially, anyone who pays attention will push on you with a big hand. What's the difference between pushing with TT-KK and pushing with 8-high? Both probably assume they're behind and want you to fold, right?

[DCJ001 0]

ok ok, that might be true on your last sentence.....but ok, lets say that is true....do ANY of those hands bet all in on the turn???? no, they dont. not at all. why would ANY hand bet all on on the turn???? please god somone answer me on the turn play and stop telling me how much i suck. my god. what hand bets all in on the turn???? what????? not 10 10 to KK thats for sure. someone answer me here logically, and i will respectfully listen to you.

Betting all in on the turn could be any hand. If you bet all in, and the other player folds, any hand wins. Calling all in requires a player to have the best hand.

[Jordan 1]

ok ok, that might be true on your last sentence.....but ok, lets say that is true....do ANY of those hands bet all in on the turn???? no, they dont. not at all. why would ANY hand bet all on on the turn???? please god somone answer me on the turn play and stop telling me how much i suck. my god. what hand bets all in on the turn???? what????? not 10 10 to KK thats for sure. someone answer me here logically, and i will respectfully listen to you.

you really don't need to argue this strategically. Any set shoves this turn, esp. if you cold call this flop. And moreso if they seen you make strange call downs. I'm not saying this was the case here, just saying this could happen.Or, people 'bluffing' with hands that are trying to push off weak aces. I agree an overbet is a weird bet to make, but that is not to say that this is never a big hand.I'd say just let this thread die dude. I'm done with it now, as I've made my points without being a jerk cause there really is not point in that. It's just not really a "strat" hand. Ok, so you took STRONG as being WEAK, fine...glad you went with it and worked out. Other than that, we gave you normal ranges...I hope you had reason to put his range as much different then all of ours and not just cause he shoveled.- Jordan

[Royal_Tour 0]

I think its safe to say that, the majority of the time, our opponent is investing 330 on this turn on a bluff to win 135?I mean, looks like he wants you out, but also looks like he thinks you'll call

[Zach6668 513]

What kind of a forum is it when a "so called" mod says:The op is looking for guidance and he gave his reasoning when he said:I question the preflop call with a mid pair. I usually call no more than 10% of an all in bet in the hopes of flopping a set. With no flopped set, the A on the flop, the C bet, and the likelihood that villain has an A or a bigger pair than 99, I would fold on the flop.If you knew that you were going to eventually call all in, a better play would have been to raise all in on the flop in the hopes that villain would lay down KK, QQ, etc.

The OP didn't give any reasoning. I asked a question to stimulate discussion, as I often do, with no one ever flipping out on me. If you read the other threads, my comments are justified. It's my responsibility to ensure that there is proper discussion going on in these forums, and I can ask someone to stop behaving like a d-bag when they have been.Nonetheless, he misinterpretted my question, and I believe I straightened it out when I said that I was merely looking for reasons why he called. As it's been backed up pretty clearly by most posters, as well as yourself, calling the flop is one of the worst plays, certainly, in NL, calling usually is a 3rd best option behind raising and folding.Anyways, I have no need to answer to you in a public forum if you dislike one comment I made. I make comments all of the time, if you have a problem with me, feel free to take it up with me privately.Cheers.- Zach

[Acid_Knight 2]

*Inhales deeply to say everything that he has to say in one breath...*So, I get to work this morning and decide to read every post in this thread. Yeah, I got problems.I agree with Jordan, Naismith etc when they say that many of your posts make you look kind of like a calling station. We are not saying that you are a calling station, but almost every hand that you posted has you making some "big" call which the majority of the forum feels is questionable. They also correctly point out that in most of the posts, you happen to miraculously have the best hand when all logic would suggest that you were dead in the water.The point of posting here is to learn something. After posting this hand and seeing the responses, your only thought (and it's nice if you admit it out loud) should be that "holy crap, I played this hand horribly and I can't beleve that I had the best hand..." You ask people to assign the villain a range and they do, almost the entirety of which, you are very far behind. You need to assign him a range too. What range do you assign him? Surely 78o isn't in that preflop or flop range. How does it magically appear in his range on the turn? IMO, because of the bet size here (unless he views you as a calling station - man, I've called you that a few times in this post, hmm) then he's not gonna bet that big with AA or KK preflop. His range I think includes all pairs 22-QQ, AT+, KJ+ QJ+ and of course, a few random hands thrown in there. When he bets the flop, the most logical thing to do is discount most of the big card hands and big pair hands. When he bets the turn, I'm throwing out the low pairs that aren't sets and the big card hands that didn't pick up a flush draw. You're in bad shape against that range. Very bad shape.I understand how to play SH and HU NL and I know that aggressive players 3-bet light. If you want to be profitable, you have to do that to keep people guessing. That being said, people 3-bet when they have real hands as well. Just because you think he's "looking to make a stand" doesn't mean that he didn't pick up ATo here and make a stand with it. He reraised preflop, bet the pot on the flop and went all-in on the turn. You're not winning here any percentage of the time that will make it even remotely profitable. Asserting that his most likely hand is a draw is ridiculous. You're playing the results becuase you got to see in the end that he had nothing. The only draw on the flop was 45 and some gutshots and backdoor flush draws. This is a 6-handed table, so while players are 3-betting light, they have to have some standards because there are a number of people at the table. He also reraised OOP, which shows more strength. After he bets and you call on the flop, it has to be fairly likely that he puts you on an A, so if he's still pushing on the turn, almost all of the time, he's gonna have an A that he thinks is better than yours. His bet interval preflop and everything about his hand says he has 2 big cards or a small to medium pair in the hole. As for him overbetting the pot on the turn, it's not really a big deal. The only other reasonable bet he could make would be more than half of his stack anyway, and if he thinks you have Ax and won't fold (a reasonable assumption considering you're calling him down with 99) then he made an excellent bet becuase he knew you'd pay it off.So, what can we learn here?1. Don't post hands if you're not looking for advice (I say this because you gallantly disagree with EVERYONE here about your bad play, so you weren't looking to hear what they had to say IMO)2. Follow the rules of the forum. It appears Zach has a temper and might do bad things to you.3. Don't get so defensive. Everyone plays hands poorly. You played this hand like an amateur who didn't want to lay down their one pair hand. Everyone does it, just don't try to make it out to be some genius play on your part when it really isn't.