An Atheist Scientist Turns To God

[David_Nicoson 1]

Most humans go to hell. And, I think God created everything slightly simialar just to mess with you, personally. It makes him laugh a little. Not alot, just a little.

This sounds to me more like the behavior of the Greek gods than the Christian one.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

But the Big 3 religions are anything but in their doctrines.

You mean, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism?

[Kwest4chipz 0]

It never ceases to amaze me, atheists...non-believers are the most active when posting their rhetoric about the non-existance of God. I'm going to field this question one more time. As a christian I really don't care why non-believers don't believe. Why are those who don't believe so hell bent on ridiculing those who do believe? OR even questioning someone elses belief in God? What do you care? It effects your life |-| <----that much, if even that. If you don't believe in God, thats fantastic...more power to ya. I just find it odd that you continually post in a religion section and don't believe. Science doesn't disprove or prove the existence of God, science has recently started to prove that parts of the stories in the bible are in fact true. If the bible is the word of God, and places and events mentioned in the bible are being proven feasible, I tend to think that it was not just a fairy tale written to control the masses. What it ultimately comes down to is this. If there was an Atheist forum here, I'd never post in it..Ya know why? I really don't care that you don't believe. You care alot about me believing, and that speaks volumes.

[hblask 1]

It never ceases to amaze me, atheists...non-believers are the most active when posting their rhetoric about the non-existance of God. I'm going to field this question one more time. As a christian I really don't care why non-believers don't believe. Why are those who don't believe so hell bent on ridiculing those who do believe? OR even questioning someone elses belief in God? What do you care? It effects your life |-| <----that much, if even that. If you don't believe in God, thats fantastic...more power to ya. I just find it odd that you continually post in a religion section and don't believe. Science doesn't disprove or prove the existence of God, science has recently started to prove that parts of the stories in the bible are in fact true. If the bible is the word of God, and places and events mentioned in the bible are being proven feasible, I tend to think that it was not just a fairy tale written to control the masses. What it ultimately comes down to is this. If there was an Atheist forum here, I'd never post in it..Ya know why? I really don't care that you don't believe. You care alot about me believing, and that speaks volumes.

I don't post from a theist or atheist position, I post from a position of science vs non-science. Science is something very specific, and I think it is important to educate people on what is and is not science. A culture that promotes science is an amazing thing for humanity, but people need to know what science is and how to tell the difference between science and belief and psuedoscience.EDIT: The reason I do this on a religion forum is because religions can't seem to resist the urge to justify themselves by appealing to the call of science -- this doesn't happen so much in other places.

[Kwest4chipz 0]

EDIT: The reason I do this on a religion forum is because religions can't seem to resist the urge to justify themselves by appealing to the call of science -- this doesn't happen so much in other places.

I need examplesI see where you are going with this, and 1 atheist scientist has accepted God. Apparently this guy has had his "moment" and has chosen to believe in God. There is no way to prove or disprove why he chose this and found faith, but, being a christian, I don't find it hard to believe. Everyone has unique experiences in life some may grow closer to God, some may stray farther from God. Speaking from my own experiences, I've had signs on the highway of life, I chose to heed them. Thats as simplistic as i can get. Do I feel that categorizes me as a wack job and a loony toon. Not in the least bit.....Religion has been a majority for quite some time now, and even though our society keeps slipping down the moral ladder every day, I think it will be a majority long after I'm gone. Why would we evolve wanting to know our purpose in life? If there was no Creator, I highly doubt we would evolve and ask ourselves these questions. There is a higher purpose, is my being a Lutheran the correct religion? I don't know if there is a correct religion. The basic message is there though and thats how I chose to live my life. Everyone has mulled over their purpose in life or has a feeling there is more too it than just big bang, dinosaurs, meteorite, dawn of man, present day...its not necessary for survival, so why would we evolve asking those kind of questions..Discuss...

[hblask 1]

I need examplesI see where you are going with this, and 1 atheist scientist has accepted God. Apparently this guy has had his "moment" and has chosen to believe in God. There is no way to prove or disprove why he chose this and found faith, but, being a christian, I don't find it hard to believe. Everyone has unique experiences in life some may grow closer to God, some may stray farther from God. Speaking from my own experiences, I've had signs on the highway of life, I chose to heed them. Thats as simplistic as i can get. Do I feel that categorizes me as a wack job and a loony toon. Not in the least bit.....Religion has been a majority for quite some time now, and even though our society keeps slipping down the moral ladder every day, I think it will be a majority long after I'm gone. Why would we evolve wanting to know our purpose in life? If there was no Creator, I highly doubt we would evolve and ask ourselves these questions. There is a higher purpose, is my being a Lutheran the correct religion? I don't know if there is a correct religion. The basic message is there though and thats how I chose to live my life. Everyone has mulled over their purpose in life or has a feeling there is more too it than just big bang, dinosaurs, meteorite, dawn of man, present day...its not necessary for survival, so why would we evolve asking those kind of questions..Discuss...

I gave an example in my other post -- the claims of ID. They are not science, they are faith, yet they keep pretending they are appealing to science.Why would we feel a need to examine our lives, from an evolutionary perspective? Because having a decision-making framework provides a survival advantage over those that make decisions on an ad-hoc each-time-is-new basis.The other answer is that if we didn't ask ourself that question then we wouldn't be asking ourselves that question. In other words, you may just as well ask why turtles and plants DON'T search for a higher purpose.

[Kwest4chipz 0]

see thats what I mean. Do you think blue whales think to themselves as they swim through a swarm of krill...."ya know what, I'm kinda being a pig....I hope the other whales don't ostracize me."Other side of the spectrum...an ant in a neat column delivering food to his/her colony. "OMG THAT NIKE IS GONNA FALL RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF OUR COLUMN! We're all gonna die!" Evolution does not explain our desire to seek fulfillment, religion does. Evolution is the survival of the fittest evolving to adapt to their environment. There is nothing on this earth that would propogate evolution so that we have complex thinking of our existence, distinction between right and wrong. What triggered that distinction, you might ask...I say God. There is no other explanation. The knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil is not necessary for survival. It came from somewhere else, and evolution is not the answer.

[hblask 1]

There is nothing on this earth that would propogate evolution so that we have complex thinking of our existence, distinction between right and wrong. What triggered that distinction, you might ask...I say God. There is no other explanation. The knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil is not necessary for survival. It came from somewhere else, and evolution is not the answer.

Do you not believe that complex thinking is a survival advantage? It appears obvious that it is.And this is exactly what I was talking about. Rather than just be comfortable with your belief in God, you (and many other theists) feel compelled to put God on some scientific framework that just *proves* God is real, I mean, it's gotta, right? The answer is, that's not science, it's belief. Unless you believe there is no survival advantage to complex thinking, this particular example is neither evidence for nor against the existence of God.

[vbnautilus 48]

see thats what I mean. Do you think blue whales think to themselves as they swim through a swarm of krill...."ya know what, I'm kinda being a pig....I hope the other whales don't ostracize me."Other side of the spectrum...an ant in a neat column delivering food to his/her colony. "OMG THAT NIKE IS GONNA FALL RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF OUR COLUMN! We're all gonna die!" Evolution does not explain our desire to seek fulfillment, religion does. Evolution is the survival of the fittest evolving to adapt to their environment. There is nothing on this earth that would propogate evolution so that we have complex thinking of our existence, distinction between right and wrong. What triggered that distinction, you might ask...I say God. There is no other explanation. The knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil is not necessary for survival. It came from somewhere else, and evolution is not the answer.

Just to clarify, I think what you mean is that there is no other explanation that you are aware of. However, I suspect this is mostly because you have not sought another explanation. If you had, you would have encountered several, and then you would have the task of deciding between them. To start you off with an alternative, I suggest you read this book by primatologist Franz De Waal:Primates and Philosophers: How Morality EvolvedSummary:Celebrated primatologist de Waal expands on his earlier work in Good Natured: The Origins of Right and Wrong in Humans and Other Animals to argue that human traits of fairness, reciprocity and altruism develop through natural selection. Based on his 2004 Tanner Lectures at Princeton, this book argues that our morality grows out of the social instincts we share with bonobos, chimpanzees and apes. De Waal criticizes what he calls the "veneer theory," which holds that human ethics is simply an overlay masking our "selfish and brutish nature." De Waal draws on his own work with primates to illustrate the evolution of morality. For example, chimpanzees are more favorably disposed to others who have performed a service for them (such as grooming) and more likely to share their food with these individuals. In three appendixes, de Waal ranges briefly over anthropomorphism, apes and a theory of mind, and animal rights. The volume also includes responses to de Waal by Robert Wright, Christine M. Korsgaard, Philip Kitcher and Peter Singer. Although E.O. Wilson and Robert Wright have long contended that altruism is a product of evolution, de Waal demonstrates through his empirical work with primates the evolutionary basis for ethics.

[Kwest4chipz 0]

evolution of a species is classically defined as adapting and evolving to environmental stimuli. In answer to your question, no, I don't think that evolution is tied to superiority. You don't need to debate whats right or wrong to feed yourself, shelter yourself or propogate the species. There would not be any moral dilemna's, there would be no religion...we would live and die without even pondering a higher existance. Something else is at work here, I know what it is....I can't give you an understanding of it with words, nor will I try. Its my own, how I came to my own conclusions doesn't matter..I know i'm not in the minority. As previously stated in another thread by at least 2 people. I'm a christian, I don't push my beliefs on anyone. I live my life the way that I feel God intended, I do my best not to act in a way that is harmful to others or myself. If a non-believer observes my life and finds faith along the way, thats awesome if they don't...so be it. Just because you don't have definitive proof that something exists...doesn't mean that it doesn't. Its a feeling, and nothing that I can translate via text, its something that an individual uniquely experiences. End of Story.

[vbnautilus 48]

Its a feeling, and nothing that I can translate via text, its something that an individual uniquely experiences. End of Story.

You must realize that if you decide the truth based on your "feelings" you will be wrong quite often. Anyone seriously interestedin ascertaining the thruth needs to understand the limitations of the instruments they are using.

[hblask 1]

Just because you don't have definitive proof that something exists...doesn't mean that it doesn't. Its a feeling, and nothing that I can translate via text, its something that an individual uniquely experiences. End of Story.

This is exactly my point. What you have is a "feeling" or a "belief". This is the exact opposite of science. Yet you continue to try to equate the two.Also, it doesn't matter if it is *necessary* for a trait to exist for it to be selected by evolution, only that it provides an advantage. The ability to share complex thoughts and beliefs is a HUGE evolutionary advantage. The ability to work in a cooperative society to the advantage of the group is also a huge evolutionary advantage. Is it necessary? No. Does it help? Of course.

[Kwest4chipz 0]

I'm almost willing to prop bet you 1k that my initial feelings are almost 100% accurate. Its the 1% that i'm wrong that I'm worried about, also, I don't have 1k. Like I said, this thread has ceased to become thought provoking. I'm still waiting for the answer to the question "If you non-believers are so sure of your science disproving the existence of God, why would you bother spewing your propaganda on a religious forum?" Seriously, I can't think of one day where I felt the need to question an atheist about why they don't believe...who cares, if it makes ya happy, yay for you. I believe for my own reasons, its not up for debate. If you can logically counter that question, we might have a discussion again. Until then, I got some poker to be playing....carry on

[vbnautilus 48]

I'm almost willing to prop bet you 1k that my initial feelings are almost 100% accurate. Its the 1% that i'm wrong that I'm worried about, also, I don't have 1k. Like I said, this thread has ceased to become thought provoking. I'm still waiting for the answer to the question "If you non-believers are so sure of your science disproving the existence of God, why would you bother spewing your propaganda on a religious forum?" Seriously, I can't think of one day where I felt the need to question an atheist about why they don't believe...who cares, if it makes ya happy, yay for you. I believe for my own reasons, its not up for debate. If you can logically counter that question, we might have a discussion again. Until then, I got some poker to be playing....carry on

The question of how people arrive at the truth is not inconsequential. It does matter, and it matters greatly. In fact, I think this might be the most important issue facing humankind. The tendency for people to maintain beliefs in the face of evidence to the contrary (proponents of faith specifically support the notion that believing is even better if you can do it in spite of evidence!) is what allows pretty much every act of racism and group violence on the planet.

[hblask 1]

I'm almost willing to prop bet you 1k that my initial feelings are almost 100% accurate. Its the 1% that i'm wrong that I'm worried about, also, I don't have 1k. Like I said, this thread has ceased to become thought provoking. I'm still waiting for the answer to the question "If you non-believers are so sure of your science disproving the existence of God, why would you bother spewing your propaganda on a religious forum?" Seriously, I can't think of one day where I felt the need to question an atheist about why they don't believe...who cares, if it makes ya happy, yay for you. I believe for my own reasons, its not up for debate. If you can logically counter that question, we might have a discussion again. Until then, I got some poker to be playing....carry on

The bet would be meaningless, because what you propose is a non-falsifiable theory. It could never be settled.I already answered the question: science is NOT interested in either proving or disproving anything. It evaluates evidence and comes to conclusions based on the evidence. I personally am not interested in proving or disproving either a theist or atheist view. My interest in the subject is based on a belief that reality is important, and that science is the route to discovering the rules of reality. When people attempt to blur the line between science and belief, it concerns me, because I don't want to find out that a particular plane wing was designed a particular way because "God told me it should be that way." Yours or anyone's beliefs are their own business until they cross the line into pretending they are science.The distinction between "science" and "belief" is important, and I don't mind spending the time and effort to do my little part to make sure that distinction remains.

[Kwest4chipz 0]

this debate has been pretty meaningless then, because I've never said once that science had anything to do with belief.

[hblask 1]

this debate has been pretty meaningless then, because I've never said once that science had anything to do with belief.

Here's what you wrote:

Why are those who don't believe so hell bent on ridiculing those who do believe? OR even questioning someone elses belief in God?

My replies have been in answer to that. I have never seen anyone tell anyone "your belief system is incorrect, you shouldn't believe in God." Instead, people tend to discuss the types of cases I've been discussing, where people attempt to support their belief system with something disguised as science but is still really faith.So either your question was a strawman, asking about people who rarely if ever show up in these discussions, or it is about the blurring of the line, as I've been discussing.So to answer your two questions literally:1) They mostly aren't.2) They only question the notion that specific facts from the physical world constitute proof of the existence of a deity (again, this is done for the reasons I've been discussing).

[Kwest4chipz 0]

I have no further comment......the notion of somebody designing a wing for air transport cuz "god told me too" is ridiculous. Religion has been around for how long? I honestly think if the line between science and belief could be blurred it would have been done so by now. Actually I don't even know what we're debating anymore......you don't believe or whatever...I don't care. You think that all christians use science to justify their beliefs.....once again I don't care. I'm sure there are some religious sects that do in fact use science to justify their beliefs....I still don't care. Its not what I'm about and it certainly isn't my faith or how I justify my faith. Faith is a unique experience for each individual, it can't be described in adequate words to let those who don't believe, understand it. They have to experience it, and obviously there are alot of people that haven't..not my problem. K I think this is my last post in this thread, God wants me to design a new electrical system for a prototype jumbo jet.

[PlayingPossum 0]

It never ceases to amaze me, atheists...non-believers are the most active when posting their rhetoric about the non-existance of God. I'm going to field this question one more time. As a christian I really don't care why non-believers don't believe. Why are those who don't believe so hell bent on ridiculing those who do believe? OR even questioning someone elses belief in God? What do you care? It effects your life |-| <----that much, if even that. If you don't believe in God, thats fantastic...more power to ya. I just find it odd that you continually post in a religion section and don't believe. Science doesn't disprove or prove the existence of God, science has recently started to prove that parts of the stories in the bible are in fact true. If the bible is the word of God, and places and events mentioned in the bible are being proven feasible, I tend to think that it was not just a fairy tale written to control the masses. What it ultimately comes down to is this. If there was an Atheist forum here, I'd never post in it..Ya know why? I really don't care that you don't believe. You care alot about me believing, and that speaks volumes.

I live in the Dover, PA school district, maybe you've heard of it. Your ridiculous little fairy tales most definitely DO effect all of us, whether you want to believe so or not. That was an intrusion into science, and I became very active in confronting religious people after that, but it's surely not the only way I'm effected. 9/11 has had an effect on everyone in this country, and to me, it was another tragic example of irrationality paired with religion, and gone terribly wrong. My cousin is currently stationed in Anbar province in Iraq, fighting a war the president stated that he had a conference with God about, and gotten the go ahead.It's everywhere, and it's about time that we realize that faith without evidence is lunacy, not a gift. Reason and science should trump religious fairy tales and the human condition should be elevated above this silliness.Do I believe that the eradication of religious belief would cure all that ails us? No, not at all. Nationalistic dogma, and any other dogma that attempts to partition humans into seperate warring "tribes" is to be avoided, but I haven't ran into too much of that here at home, whereas religion is all around me.

[fighter 4]

there IS a huge significance to the statistics there, but it's exactly the opposite of what you're implying:A. 90% of the US populous are "believers". B. 90% of scientists must have been raised in an environment of belief.C. if only 40% of working scientists maintain belief obviously a heck of a lotmore of them are believers that became atheist or agnostic than the other way around, and the majority of scientists that do believe do so for culturalreasons and not scientific ones.

B is an assumption. Maybe scientists are more likely to come from the 10% because of the enviroment they are rasied. C. is also an assumption. Mabye there is more "cultural" presure to be an athiest since the majority of their peers are atheist or agnostic.

[jmkiser 0]

It never ceases to amaze me, atheists...non-believers are the most active when posting their rhetoric about the non-existance of God. I'm going to field this question one more time. As a christian I really don't care why non-believers don't believe. Why are those who don't believe so hell bent on ridiculing those who do believe? OR even questioning someone elses belief in God? What do you care? It effects your life |-| <----that much, if even that. If you don't believe in God, thats fantastic...more power to ya. I just find it odd that you continually post in a religion section and don't believe. Science doesn't disprove or prove the existence of God, science has recently started to prove that parts of the stories in the bible are in fact true. If the bible is the word of God, and places and events mentioned in the bible are being proven feasible, I tend to think that it was not just a fairy tale written to control the masses. What it ultimately comes down to is this. If there was an Atheist forum here, I'd never post in it..Ya know why? I really don't care that you don't believe. You care alot about me believing, and that speaks volumes.

how many times do i have to post

video.

This is a video with a few of the many great reasons on why we care. Plus a (current president at the time, ex-president now) saying things like atheists shouldn't even be considered citizens of this country and that this country is a "nation under god". It's despicable AND untrue.Why do we care and get so bent out of shape? www.theocracywatch.org Because the religious in this country are continuing to attempt to infuse themselves into politics... and the worst of them are trying to completely just take over.

[fighter 4]

It never ceases to amaze me, atheists...non-believers are the most active when posting their rhetoric about the non-existance of God. I'm going to field this question one more time. As a christian I really don't care why non-believers don't believe. Why are those who don't believe so hell bent on ridiculing those who do believe? OR even questioning someone elses belief in God? What do you care? It effects your life |-| <----that much, if even that. If you don't believe in God, thats fantastic...more power to ya. I just find it odd that you continually post in a religion section and don't believe. Science doesn't disprove or prove the existence of God, science has recently started to prove that parts of the stories in the bible are in fact true. If the bible is the word of God, and places and events mentioned in the bible are being proven feasible, I tend to think that it was not just a fairy tale written to control the masses. What it ultimately comes down to is this. If there was an Atheist forum here, I'd never post in it..Ya know why? I really don't care that you don't believe. You care alot about me believing, and that speaks volumes.

We come to "your" forum because you knock on our doors. Maybe we are here doing gods work by strengthing your faith. probly not but ay everything happends for a reason. probly not though. Really though what would you talk about in here if it wasnt for us. could you really stand this forum if it was just a thumbs up club.

[jmkiser 0]

I live in the Dover, PA school district, maybe you've heard of it. Your ridiculous little fairy tales most definitely DO effect all of us, whether you want to believe so or not. That was an intrusion into science, and I became very active in confronting religious people after that, but it's surely not the only way I'm effected. 9/11 has had an effect on everyone in this country, and to me, it was another tragic example of irrationality paired with religion, and gone terribly wrong. My cousin is currently stationed in Anbar province in Iraq, fighting a war the president stated that he had a conference with God about, and gotten the go ahead.It's everywhere, and it's about time that we realize that faith without evidence is lunacy, not a gift. Reason and science should trump religious fairy tales and the human condition should be elevated above this silliness.Do I believe that the eradication of religious belief would cure all that ails us? No, not at all. Nationalistic dogma, and any other dogma that attempts to partition humans into seperate warring "tribes" is to be avoided, but I haven't ran into too much of that here at home, whereas religion is all around me.

+1 to thatAlso, you live right next to where the Rational Response Squad is stationed if I recall correctly. Actually, all I know is that they are based out of PA. When religion tries to infuse themselves into government, the education of my children, etc. I've got major problems. Sure, the fact that I can't buy alcohol on Sunday is a nuisance... or a car for that matter. But those who claim their destructive and negative actions for their religion are a major problem in this society. That goes to everything from radical Islam (violent action) to fundamentalist Christians (indoctrinating children in school).

[crowTrobot 2]

B is an assumption. Maybe scientists are more likely to come from the 10% because of the enviroment they are rasied.

probably true to a limited extent, but i don't think that lowers the overall numbers very much. obviously there isn't a neat little 10% counter culture of atheist/agnostic families spawning 60% of working scientists. there are polls that show scientists (including science educators) originate from all walks without any such radically skewed distribution.

C. is also an assumption. Mabye there is more "cultural" presure to be an athiest since the majority of their peers are atheist or agnostic.

i didn't say 90% (or whatever) becomes 40% entirely due to considering empirical evidence. i was just pointing out that DN does not appear to be factoring in the affects of cultural upbringing when he is surprised by the 40% figure.

[Balloon guy 158]

Science is very willing to admit where it lacks evidence and to not discuss realms about which it is uncertain.

If this were only true.......There would a lot fewer post counts from this section of FCP