Another High-limit Hand

[Acid_Knight 2]

Several months ago, playing 10/20 NL at the Bellagio I played a really weird hand. I had been playing fairly solid during the day and the villain in the hand had been playing quite a few pots and showing a wide range of hands. I wasn't sure if he was brilliant or retarded, but he was definitely different. He also seemed to have more money than he needed. Of course, that is always a problem that I like to help people with.Stacks:Villain (SB) $4,400Hero (CO) $8,000Hero opens the pot from the CO for the standard opening raise of $100 with K J Villain calls from SBFlop (2 Players) $220K 8 5 Villain checks, Hero bets $180, Villain calls.Turn (2 Players) $580Q Villain checks, Hero bets $400, Villain calls.River (2 Players) $13805 Villain checks, Hero bets $1000, Villain goes all-in for $3700 total. Hero....?Based on his play, I put him on a draw or a weak K. When the river paired the board, nullifying my kicker, I made the bet on the river so that I wouldn't have to share the pot because I believed that it would be difficult for him to call me and play the Q kicker when I had played the hand so strongly.

[NEtwowilldo 0]

This play seems really fishy to me. Of the two hands you put him on, I think a missed draw is more likely than a weak king. I say this because going all in with a weak king would be foolish when you can just call and get a showdown. He should know that if he has something like K 9, he is only getting called if he is beat. This player seems to be the type that plays differently based on a strong understanding of the game, rather than just being retarted. I don't think a retard would have check raised the river. I'm thinking either 67 of hearts, (or something to that effect) or maybe he flopped a set and slowplayed it. Of those two possibilities, I think slowplaying a set would not be advisable on a draw heavy board, so maybe he doesn't have that. Most people with 6 7 of hearts in that spot, who wound up missing everything, after check calling all the way with their monster draw, would lead at the river to try and steal it. If this guy is as crafty as you describe, maybe he is clever enough to check raise and represent something. I'm really having trouble figuring out if this guy is a rich donk, or a one of those rich geniuses who were like child prodigies. I honestly cant tell you if it's a slowplayed monster or a missed draw, I probably would have felt like I got trapped and given up if I were in your spot. This one's really starting to bother me the more I sit here and type, thinking about it. My final conclusion is crying call out of curiosity. At the very least, you'll have some information for next time. Idk though, definitiely a tough spot.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Let me clarify my read. PRIOR TO THE RIVER, I had put him on a weaker king or a draw. Once he makes that bet on the river, I have to re-evaluate my read. It's possible that he could have Kx or a missed draw, but with that bet, all of those hands now fall under the blanket category of "bluff" and I have to figure out what legitimate hands he could have, that he'd play like that, that will beat me.

[7s7c 0]

I'm thinking either 67 of hearts, (or something to that effect) or maybe he flopped a set and slowplayed it. Of those two possibilities, I think slowplaying a set would not be advisable on a draw heavy board, so maybe he doesn't have that. Most people with 6 7 of hearts in that spot, who wound up missing everything, after check calling all the way with their monster draw, would lead at the river to try and steal it. If this guy is as crafty as you describe, maybe he is clever enough to check raise and represent something.

67 of hearts HAS to raise that flop at these stakes me thinks, unless he's a total fish. 8/8 might be playing with fire on a draw heavy board but HU against a good/aggro player I would certainly not be averse to trying to lay a trap there if I'm villain, especially given the fact that given the chip disparity I have an opportunity to double through that I might not see the rest of the night. NLHE ring is about that one huge pot that can make or break a session, if I'm 8/8 in that spot, I trap thinking the solid player raised with 2 big ones and hope he hit a big king with no redraw opportunity then let him hang. Just sayin. Could also be a weaker king and played it a little odd...dunno enough about villain.

[NEtwowilldo 0]

This is one of those ones where I really just don't know what to say, or what I would do in your spot. I wish someone would say what he had. PM me if it is a mortal sin to post results.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Several months ago, playing 10/20 NL at the Bellagio I played a really weird hand. I had been playing fairly solid during the day and the villain in the hand had been playing quite a few pots and showing a wide range of hands. I wasn't sure if he was brilliant or retarded, but he was definitely different. He also seemed to have more money than he needed. Of course, that is always a problem that I like to help people with.Stacks:Villain (SB) $4,400Hero (CO) $8,000Hero opens the pot from the CO for the standard opening raise of $100 with K J Villain calls from SBFlop (2 Players) $220K 8 5 Villain checks, Hero bets $180, Villain calls.Turn (2 Players) $580Q Villain checks, Hero bets $400, Villain calls.River (2 Players) $13805 Villain checks, Hero bets $1000, Villain goes all-in for $3700 total. Hero....?Based on his play, I put him on a draw or a weak K. When the river paired the board, nullifying my kicker, I made the bet on the river so that I wouldn't have to share the pot because I believed that it would be difficult for him to call me and play the Q kicker when I had played the hand so strongly.

So borderline in every way.I think I dump it and stay stacked up and lure him back to an all in when I have a better holding.

[Naismith 0]

I hate hands like this. I'm trying to improve my value betting on the river and that certainly opens you up to plays at you. I don't often see the check-raise all in bluff on the river, although it did happen to me recently. I don't think a good player would bet out on the river with a bluff because it gets called too frequently/looks too much like a busted draw. I honestly don't know what I'd do here. I know that if you call, he's flipping over a hand that beats you and if you fold, he's flipping over complete air. Would this player call you down with a hand like A5?

[Acid_Knight 2]

67 of hearts HAS to raise that flop at these stakes me thinks, unless he's a total fish. 8/8 might be playing with fire on a draw heavy board but HU against a good/aggro player I would certainly not be averse to trying to lay a trap there if I'm villain, especially given the fact that given the chip disparity I have an opportunity to double through that I might not see the rest of the night. NLHE ring is about that one huge pot that can make or break a session, if I'm 8/8 in that spot, I trap thinking the solid player raised with 2 big ones and hope he hit a big king with no redraw opportunity then let him hang. Just sayin. Could also be a weaker king and played it a little odd...dunno enough about villain.

Playing a set like this is suicide honestly. Once he checks on the river, his line makes no sense. If he flopped 2 pair, he'd have to raise to protect it. If he flopped a set, even if he risked being outdrawn, he'd have to bet the river to get full value.

[Acid_Knight 2]

So borderline in every way.I think I dump it and stay stacked up and lure him back to an all in when I have a better holding.

What is borderline? What hand possibly makes sense for the villain to have that beats me and plays in this manner?My chip count, or anyones for that matter, should NEVER EVER enter into the equation by thinking "well, I'll still have a lot of chips left if I fold, but if I call and lose I'll be shortstacked" That's why it's a cash game and not a tournament. I had $8000 in front of me becuase it covered everyone. If I needed to buy in for $20,000 I would have done that. My chip count has absolutely nothing to do with the hand and it never should.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I hate hands like this. I'm trying to improve my value betting on the river and that certainly opens you up to plays at you. I don't often see the check-raise all in bluff on the river, although it did happen to me recently. I don't think a good player would bet out on the river with a bluff because it gets called too frequently/looks too much like a busted draw. I honestly don't know what I'd do here. I know that if you call, he's flipping over a hand that beats you and if you fold, he's flipping over complete air. Would this player call you down with a hand like A5?

The player was weird. Some hands would be completely straight forward and others you had no idea what he was thinking. Would he call me down with A5? I highly doubt it.The question that I'm asking is, if he has a hand that beats me, what is it? No hands make sense for how this played out in my opinion.

[Sefaje 0]

I don't like the river bet.It's worthless if you're beat (obviously), and it's worthless (very frequently) if he was drawing since he either folds or puts you in this spot. (more on this below)The only value that comes is if he for some reason1. folds a better hand (not happening)2. folds a split pot (somewhat probable, but factor in the crazy times he pushes with a split pot hand and puts you in this spot, where you'll either fold/split)3. or calls with a worse hand (verrrry unlikely.)If you know this player to be likely to fold the same hand as you, mayyybe. But unless he has exactly KJ or KT, there's not a lot of possibilities in this category. Also, If he had been check/calling top pair + 4th or worse kicker out of position, I think you'd have noticed by now. I don't like betting 1000 to hopefully gain 690 that you would have split.If you know the player to c/r all in with a busted draw, then there's some value. Without a read, I just check behind. The times he slowplayed a better hand than yours plus the times he will just call with K8 or KQ or something else than has you, outweigh the times you'll get him to fold a split plus the times you'll stack him by inducing the c/r bluff.

[Acid_Knight 2]

The explicit reason that I bet the river was that I thought it was as likely that he had Kx (as a draw) and I was going to have to chop the pot with him. The possibility that he'd check raise all in with a hand like KT so that he wouldn't have to chop the pot is so minimal that I'm not even considering it.In my estimation, he would not have been able to call on the river to split the pot and that is why I made the bet. Based on how the hand had played out, the thought that I was beaten had not really crossed into my mind until his river bet. Every move he made at the pot was very passive, right down to his river check.It wasn't a value bet to be called by a worse hand, it was a weird bluff-ish bet becuase I wanted him to fold if he did hold a hand that would win him half of the pot.

[Naismith 0]

I don't like the river bet.It's worthless if you're beat (obviously), and it's worthless if he was drawing since he either folds or puts you in this spot.The only value that comes is if he for some reason1. folds a better hand (not happening)2. folds a split pot (somewhat probable, but factor in the crazy times he pushes with a split pot hand and puts you in this spot, where you'll either fold/split)3. or calls with a worse hand (verrrry unlikely.)If you know this player to be likely to fold the same hand as you, mayyybe. But unless he has exactly KJ or KT, there's not a lot of possibilities in this category.If you know the player to c/r all in with a busted draw, then there's some value. Without a read, I just check behind.

I don't know, man. I see a lot of players make a heroic call on this board with AQ. The largest hand I've ever won in a NL game was at 50-100 NL when an aggressive player raised UTG, I re-raised KK. The flop came KJ4 and we got it all in and he had QJ. He just didn't believe I had him beat. He seemed to be a good player, but he lost 11k with second pair.We're obviously not facing a hand like that with a check-raise on the river, but there is value to be made with a river bet here. Acid, I guess it comes down to whether you think this player has this kind of trap in him. Would he play AK like this? A set? I don't know the answer to that. I generally don't give players a lot of credit when they check to me on the river, so I'd probably making a crying call here.

[Sefaje 0]

The explicit reason that I bet the river was that I thought it was as likely that he had Kx (as a draw) and I was going to have to chop the pot with him. The possibility that he'd check raise all in with a hand like KT so that he wouldn't have to chop the pot is so minimal that I'm not even considering it.In my estimation, he would not have been able to call on the river to split the pot and that is why I made the bet. Based on how the hand had played out, the thought that I was beaten had not really crossed into my mind until his river bet. Every move he made at the pot was very passive, right down to his river check.It wasn't a value bet to be called by a worse hand, it was a weird bluff-ish bet becuase I wanted him to fold if he did hold a hand that would win him half of the pot.

Fair enough, but giving yourself 1:1.44 odds is gross. I probably bet smaller. I'm not saying give him 3.75:1, but anything over half the pot would do the same trick.Also, I realize that not a lot of hands make sense with his line, but does check/calling KT OOP on a KQ5 against a solid player make sense either? I'm eagerly awaiting the results of this hand because villain has me slightly confused.Edit: Also, stop replying to my posts so fast you fags. I generally edit them 2 or so times once I re-read the threads.

[Jordan 1]

I'm pretty sure you'd have to call this.If he has a boat or w/e...go shake his hand. lol- Jordan

[Naismith 0]

I'm pretty sure you'd have to call this.If he has a boat or w/e...go shake his hand. lol- Jordan

Do you even play poker anymore?

[Jordan 1]

Do you even play poker anymore?

occasionally.i will play more again when I get back from cambodia.maybe & hopefully.- Jordan

[Acid_Knight 2]

Acid, I guess it comes down to whether you think this player has this kind of trap in him. Would he play AK like this? A set? I don't know the answer to that. I generally don't give players a lot of credit when they check to me on the river, so I'd probably making a crying call here.

One of the main reasons that I posted this hand is becuase it's one of the few times that I can remember where I was pretty sure that I had the hand all sorted out, and then this bet comes in from nowhere to surprise the hell outta me. I can usually tell when people might be trapping or if they plan to raise or check raise or whatever, but this is one of those situations where you're just totally caught off guard by the move that someone pulls. It's never fun when it happens, unless you're holding the nuts.Would he play AK like this? I doubt it. After the turn, he could easily be beaten by KQ. Basically, I thought about the hand for the better part of 2 minutes, reconstructing it in my head and all of that fancy crap. It got me nowhere. I thought to myself "if that's a bluff, it doesn't make sense because you're not representing anything. If it's a made hand, what is it becuase you're not representing anything."The end analysis of the whole thing was that his play doesn't make sense. If you've read "Book of Bluffs" by Matt Lessinger (which is an excellent book by the way), he talks about how bluffs are stories. In order for them to be successful they have to make sense at every step of the way so that when your opponent replays the hand in their head, they see that each move you made corresponded to the hand that you're trying to represent. If you don't bluff well, then the story doesn't make sense and when that happens, people get curious. When people get curious, you get called which is a bad thing if you're bluffing.There's a little hint in there.None of his story made sense. If he was bluffing, it didn't make sense, but if he had a hand it didn't make sense either.The book was right. I got curious and I called. I did not win any part of the pot.I'm curious to see if anyone can peg his hand.

[Sefaje 0]

I'm curious to see if anyone can peg his hand.

QQ makes more sense than anything else.

[Naismith 0]

The book was right. I got curious and I called. I did not win any part of the pot.

I only have three guesses.1) He overplayed a hand like A52) He had KQ3) The poker room exploded and all hands were declared dead (as well as all people)

[Jordan 1]

55 lol?pretty sick...reading the hand, nothing really makes sense.if he had AK that would be a gross/awesome river check/raise considering your hand and how he played his up till that point.I woulda called simply cause nothing made sense and I had seen him be able to make moves before...thus either a monster or nada...and if it was a monster a really crazy played one...so I'll just go ahead and say 55 for quads. Sure, why not?- Jordan

[Acid_Knight 2]

QQ makes more sense than anything else.

This is true, but it is still wrong.I'll let a few more people take stabs at it, then when you all get it wrong, I can tell you.

[Naismith 0]

This is true, but it is still wrong.I'll let a few more people take stabs at it, then when you all get it wrong, I can tell you.

LOL. AA?I like that we've gotten to the point of just throwing out hands we're behind here.

[sixhands 0]

One of the main reasons that I posted this hand is becuase it's one of the few times that I can remember where I was pretty sure that I had the hand all sorted out, and then this bet comes in from nowhere to surprise the hell outta me. I can usually tell when people might be trapping or if they plan to raise or check raise or whatever, but this is one of those situations where you're just totally caught off guard by the move that someone pulls. It's never fun when it happens, unless you're holding the nuts.Would he play AK like this? I doubt it. After the turn, he could easily be beaten by KQ. Basically, I thought about the hand for the better part of 2 minutes, reconstructing it in my head and all of that fancy crap. It got me nowhere. I thought to myself "if that's a bluff, it doesn't make sense because you're not representing anything. If it's a made hand, what is it becuase you're not representing anything."The end analysis of the whole thing was that his play doesn't make sense. If you've read "Book of Bluffs" by Matt Lessinger (which is an excellent book by the way), he talks about how bluffs are stories. In order for them to be successful they have to make sense at every step of the way so that when your opponent replays the hand in their head, they see that each move you made corresponded to the hand that you're trying to represent. If you don't bluff well, then the story doesn't make sense and when that happens, people get curious. When people get curious, you get called which is a bad thing if you're bluffing.There's a little hint in there.None of his story made sense. If he was bluffing, it didn't make sense, but if he had a hand it didn't make sense either.The book was right. I got curious and I called. I did not win any part of the pot.I'm curious to see if anyone can peg his hand.

He had K 5, or some other retarded hand like 4 5 or 5 6Now that I think about it, he had 5 9Yup that's what he had 5 9 off suit. And the reason he always plays it is because that was the year he was born.Am I right?

[Jordan 1]

ship the results.I'll just go through all the 5x hands52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 5T 5J 5Q 5K 5A- Jordan