We Have To Get Away From The Set..

[krup24 0]

I'm literally annoyed at all these statements. I already said that I didn't mean we should be folding sets to heat all the time. AK makes absolutely no sense here at all Krup, and you know that. AK, really? I think a flush draw and 2 pair very seldom here, but still more often than AQ/AK. And, we have a tight read. None of this matters?

I've seen AK played like this a lot. Don't get me wrong the tight read matters, but 4 orbits is not necessarily a strong read. I'm saying this is AK more often than 2 pair or a flush draw based on pf action. Reads are critical but I don't think I'm good enough to fold this hand here. Especially being relatively shortstacked and having 20% of my stack invested. Let's say that stack sizes are triple or even double, then I could possibly consider a fold but not here, not now.

[DonkSlayer 1]

I've seen AK played like this a lot. Don't get me wrong the tight read matters, but 4 orbits is not necessarily a strong read. I'm saying this is AK more often than 2 pair or a flush draw based on pf action.

Stacks notwithstanding, we have more info to go on than just the pf action. AK flat calls $1 into a $16 pot with 2 behind?

[krup24 0]

Stacks notwithstanding, we have more info to go on than just the pf action. AK flat calls $1 into a $16 pot with 2 behind?

i know it's weird but I've seen it done. in their eyes they are slowplaying a monster. my problem is that i don't give players at these levels any credit at all. i take my lumps but overall the donks by far and away outnumber the competents. now if i had some decent pt stats or been at the table with villian for a few hrs then we can talk about folding. i assume donk until proven otherwise (kinda like innocent until proven guilty). but again stacks notwithstanding i can consider a fold.

[mtdesmoines 3]

but again stacks notwithstanding i can consider a fold.

I think I call up to 30% of my bankroll here. Seriously.

[DonkSlayer 1]

I think I call up to 30% of my bankroll here. Seriously.

I'll take this one and go with it here.I was UTG. I held AA.The reason I posted the hand was because the guy with 77 instacalled. INSTAcalled. I had been there for about 4 rotations, and bought in with $70, my usual for this level. He had seen all of that. I was up a little, quiet, and at this point had either folded my hand on the flop or bet/raised hard enough to take it down there. Whether or not the call was the right thing to do, whether or not he was relatively shortstacked, this situation absolutely should give a thinking player, which I consider most of you who contributed to this threat to be, at least some pause. Athough I've only been around for 40 hands or so, making the plays I did without the nuts would've been contrary to the read we had AND the action that took place. That doesn't seem to be the case, though. I would be concerned that if your stack is susceptible to advanced plays from quality players at ANY level, adding that to the occasional suck-out by a donk could do some damage to your overall +EV. Whether or not in reality I would've been able to get away from this hand, knowing that the SB might call getting a lot of money for his FD, is irrelevant...I think this is one of those situations where thinking a situation through before we smashed our mouse trying to call would do us great benefit. I'll get off my pedestal now.

[pokerfan1080 0]

It's always tough to decipher a tricky player. Without a great read here, it would be tough for most people to get away from it. Although, it's times like these that we tend to accept the fact that we have a proper BR for the level we are playing and chalk a loss up to "that's poker!".Kudos, you set the trap nicely.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Raise the flop.

[dms26 3]

The reason I posted the hand was because the guy with 77 instacalled. INSTAcalled. I had been there for about 4 rotations, and bought in with $70, my usual for this level. He had seen all of that. I was up a little, quiet, and at this point had either folded my hand on the flop or bet/raised hard enough to take it down there. Whether or not the call was the right thing to do, whether or not he was relatively shortstacked, this situation absolutely should give a thinking player, which I consider most of you who contributed to this threat to be, at least some pause.

I really don't see myself folding 77 there either, I'm praying for a re-raise. There are plenty of people who will overplay AK on that hand, possibly flush draws too. I'd be shocked if calling with middle set in that situation is -EV in the long run. I saw a guy shove against a tight player last night with KQ on a AK77 board, it was only $25 NL but I doubt the level of play is all that much better. I knew he was beat before the cards were turned over, but most of the players at these levels don't think.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I really don't see myself folding 77 there either, I'm praying for a re-raise. There are plenty of people who will overplay AK on that hand, possibly flush draws too. I'd be shocked if calling with middle set in that situation is -EV in the long run. I saw a guy shove against a tight player last night with KQ on a AK77 board, it was only $25 NL but I doubt the level of play is all that much better. I knew he was beat before the cards were turned over, but most of the players at these levels don't think.

This is getting really silly...Donkslayer: "THIS IS NOT A TYPICAL 50NL PLAYER! I'm certaint his player is playing very, VERY tight, and he would not be pushing with air, here. Also, it's incredibly unlikely that he's pushing with a draw. AK/AQ make no sense given the flop call/push, and two pair or bottom set make no sense given his preflop raise from EP."Other people: "Yeah, but he's probably a donk, so it's an easy call. He might just have KK!"Donkslayer: "I hate you."

[DonkSlayer 1]

Haha. Thanks man I needed a laugh; it's been a tough day.

[rusmac31 0]

Donkslayer,I don't see how how 4 orbits (40 hand?) is enough time to have a tight read on a playerAA is getting paid off by 77 99.9% of the time on this board no matter how you play AA especially with 4 orbit readNice pot ;o)

[ThreeBet 0]

Disclaimer ... I've NEVER played on-line, only live, and I know the standards of play are, on average, supposedly higher on-line vs live at the same limits. I'm a fairly good 20/40 Limit player who has just recently (30 sessions or so) started playing NL. I quickly got the hell away from 1/2 as every time I played (3 sessions) it was not poker, imo, and very similar to 1/2 or 4/8 Limit in the quality of play, as in no one knows what the hell they're doing, littlelone what I'm doing.I've started reading a lot of these NL threads and I'm seriously confused, and I hope no one takes offense to this, but isn't 1/2 NL(and lower) too low to really assume anything other than Donk/beginner/scared until proven otherwise? I didn't even know which thread to post this in (didn't want to start a new one) because in a lot of them I keep coming to the same conclusions based on my own (limited) experiences.For example, in this one, I don't know how you can assume that the guy with the 7's would have even noticed anything about donkslayer being "tight and quiet" after 4 orbits, littlelone fold a set on the flop after putting such a large percentage of his stack in (maybe the turn if another club hits, but even then ....???). In the "top set on a flush board" one (that is right under this thread) I lol'd because the first thing that popped into my head was that he had pocket queens which turned out to be correct ... played absolutely terrible ... but that's just it, a lot of players (again, in my limited LIVE experience) are brutal at this level. Even at the 2/5 and 3/6 I've played, a significant percentage of players are pretty bad, and it's not until I get to the 5/10 level (only 2 sessions) do I see way more consistently good vs bad players.I'm sure it's the on-line players are better theory, which, BTW, I can completely buy into very easily, but aren't the majority of "good" players playing higher limits than 1/2? Again, I hope I don't offend anyone who plays these levels because I really enjoy all the detailed analysis that you guys contribute to the Strat sections and it has helped me immensely to date, but I have a tough time thinking that these villains are anywhere near the players that you guys are, thus you give them way too much credit a lot of the time? It's 1/2 (or even lower) and we're talking very small amounts of money (generally .... there I go offending again!).I don't even know if I have a question in all this rambling .... maybe it's just what you guys think are comparative limits of on-line vs live so that I can equate things in my mind while reading all this stuff? I dunno, maybe its just a stupid post worthy of multiple flaming? Its too late now, I've spent the last 15 minutes typing it so its gett'n posted!Edit - Looking at the time of the post above, I guess it was a lot more than 15 minutes ... apparently I type slower than I thought!

[DonkSlayer 1]

Thoughtful post.The neat thing about NL is that I think you can get much more info on your opponents in any given hand than you can playing limit...and can also dictate their actions much easier as well.That being said, I would agree with everything you said if my only info was my read before the hand started. My point was not that it shouldn't have been a call, or even that I wouldn't have called, but that, if we were really paying attention to all our information, the situation should have seriously given us some pause before we decided what to do.The other thing is that, while surely there are many MORE donks at the lower limit and NL levels, it is really too much to assume everyone is a donk, no matter what. There are plenty of guys who play lower limits than me that I consider to be quality..but are practicing very strict bankroll mgmt OR are killing that level at such a good rate that they prefer to keep that consistent money coming in to support whatever they're spending it on, vs. risking it to move up quickly. I myself, although I keep a smaller buy-in bankroll than most (I just don't have swings at 100max more than 2/3 buyins), have had what I thought to be an adequate br for 1/2 NL online more than once...but preferred to continue to kill these stakes for good $$ vs taking the shot.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I probably couldn't have found a fold with middle set, there, but I'm never in a position like that, either. I play fast/loose on all streets, so I'm usually getting played back at- even by supertight players- with muuuch wider ranges than top set+ (haha). In a vaccuum, I likely think about this for a few moments, but realize he's pushing lighter than I can explain nearly often enough to make the call profitable. Plus, if the third player calls and I made an atrocious fold, I'd probably be nearly suicidal.Wang

[ThreeBet 0]

No question on the learning more about an opponent in NL .... reading people is one of my better skillz and I'm loving the NL vs Limit for that! I'm finding I'm really in tune with some one (the ones that are predictable, anyways) after a couple of hours or so.I did say "untill proven otherwise", there's good players at every level, no argument there. I'm just thinking that so many of these villains play like fools that they aint you and you guys potentially give them way too much credit. Having said that, the discussions and viewpoints tossed back and forth are almost always very constructive.What about your thoughts on the comparative levels on-line vs live? That would really help me translate or equate with all the analysis .... especially if the regulars all gave their 2 cents on it.Another factor I thought of that probably contributes to more good players at lower limits is the fact that you guys multi table whereas I play one table only (DUH!) .... multitabling obviously increases $$$ wagered and won. Conversely though, if those villains are donks and doing thes same (multitabling) then they're even less apt to notice all the things they're supposed to???

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

I honestly think this is AA at least 80% of the time.

I don't.UTG raises do not always equate to AA, I promise.I only fold this if I'm going to fold it face up so that people think they can walk all over me later on in the game.But, realistically, I sprain a shoulder getting this all in.

[dms26 3]

I don't.UTG raises do not always equate to AA, I promise.I only fold this if I'm going to fold it face up so that people think they can walk all over me later on in the game.But, realistically, I sprain a shoulder getting this all in.

well at least next time you complain about a bum shoulder I'll know why

[mtdesmoines 3]

... it's times like these that we tend to accept the fact that we have a proper BR for the level we are playing and chalk a loss up to "that's poker!".

[Altruist 0]

No question on the learning more about an opponent in NL .... reading people is one of my better skillz and I'm loving the NL vs Limit for that! I'm finding I'm really in tune with some one (the ones that are predictable, anyways) after a couple of hours or so.I did say "untill proven otherwise", there's good players at every level, no argument there. I'm just thinking that so many of these villains play like fools that they aint you and you guys potentially give them way too much credit. Having said that, the discussions and viewpoints tossed back and forth are almost always very constructive.What about your thoughts on the comparative levels on-line vs live? That would really help me translate or equate with all the analysis .... especially if the regulars all gave their 2 cents on it.Another factor I thought of that probably contributes to more good players at lower limits is the fact that you guys multi table whereas I play one table only (DUH!) .... multitabling obviously increases $$$ wagered and won. Conversely though, if those villains are donks and doing thes same (multitabling) then they're even less apt to notice all the things they're supposed to???

This thread has been helpful and I'm glad it was scripted the way it was, from both paradigms. ThreeBet points out that we're giving donks too much credit. I'm going to have to agree as it's proven to be one of the leaks I've plugged since I signed on here. I'm up 40%+ online for 2007 at low levels (BR managment). I had a good 3hr session during the Bears game today, sat down with $50, everyone left the table when I had $138. I made some calls I would have laid down last year and profitted.I appreciate the insight you folks provide. Oh, and I too would have sprained my finger clicking the call button with middle set.