Tptk Turns Flush Draw. River Fold.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I had a really bad session playing in an easy game the other day. I know I ran bad, but I just wanted to make sure I was playing well. This seemed ultra standard at the time, but I just want to make sure my perspective ain't all busted.5/10 LHE live. I'm losing. I burned through 25 BB in ~2 hours. I only showed 2 hands. Once a set of aces when I lost to a gutshot. Once KQs on a board of KJ2 8 6 (or something). I open raised from MP, the BB 3-bet, and then check/called the entire way with AA (???).The villain in this hand is about 50. He's decent, not as bad as most of the players. He knows the game, and can discuss it intelligently. He's been pretty passive preflop, and postflop. He's too loose before the flop, but tighens up considerably postflop. I've seen him go into calldown mode too early a few times with good hands on semi-scary boards. He still may be too loose. He likely sees me as a decent player, but might think I'm a little crappy. I've been talking to the dealer about Johnny Moss and Mike Matusow for the last 15 minutes, and about Greektown's Sunday 10/20 PL Round-by-Round game. PreflopVillian limps UTG+1, MP player limps, I raise from the hijack with AhTh, Button calls, BB calls, Villian and MP call.Flop (10sb)Tc 9h 2dChecked to me, I bet, button folds, BB calls, Villain checkraises, folded to me, I call, BB folds (so we're heads up)Turn (7 BB, post rake)Tc 9h 2d 7hVillian bets, I raise, Villain 3-bets, I callRiver (13BB)Total blank that I can't remember. Maybe something stupid like the Qc or 3d or something. I dunno.Villain bets, I fold.Look about right?

[mrdannyg 274]

i call river for sure, though i make way too many crying calls.i rationalize it here by telling myself it is live and i'm running bad, which may affect my opponent's play. but truthfully, i only call for my own mental state.

[Zach6668 513]

I play it the same.I call river for the reasons danny mentions.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Wang, were you planning on raising the turn regardless of whether you picked up the draw?

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Wang, were you planning on raising the turn regardless of whether you picked up the draw?

Yes. Unless a J, Q, K or 8 came off. And I was folding to a 3-bet in those situations.EDIT- I might have called the 3-bet and folded the river UI, where I consider a T or an A improvement. But probably not.

[Actuary 3]

I don't get the turn raise against a loose-passivisha. Are you ever getting a fold?b. Are you ever ahead?Are a + b combined worth the times you are 3 bet and fold river UI?I'm calling down UI after his c/r.- Or if I raise, I'd be putting in the 3rd bet on the flop to face BB with 2 and see if Villain or BB cap.

[LuckyMcCatcher 0]

I don't get the turn raise against a loose-passivisha. Are you ever getting a fold?b. Are you ever ahead?Are a + b combined worth the times you are 3 bet and fold river UI?I'm calling down UI after his c/r.- Or if I raise, I'd be putting in the 3rd bet on the flop to face BB with 2 and see if Villain or BB cap.

I agree. I reserve heroe's line for these situations against players who are aggro postflop and who have a wide range. In this spot you rarely have the best hand and Im guessing you are either up against an overpair or a set neither of which are folding. I think you need to call river. Your turn raise look suspicious, because its hard to tell what you are representing other than a bdfd, and your image is obviously shot so villain could be making this play w/ KT or 99 thinking you have 2 big suited hearts.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Passive players seldom checkraise any street with just top pair.Can you really imagine him showing anything less than something like K10 after c/ring the flop, if even that?Can you really imagine him folding anything better than TPTK to you?

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Passive players seldom checkraise any street with just top pair.Can you really imagine him showing anything less than something like K10 after c/ring the flop, if even that?Can you really imagine him folding anything better than TPTK to you?

He's passive, but not retarded. He'd still check/raise here with KT/QT or maybe even TJ. He COULD put a c/r in with a hand like QJ in a 3-handed pot like this, and probably would, but there's a chance he'd just call with his draw. And BECAUSE he is passive, I figure when I raise the turn, I'll only get 3-bet when I'm crushed (and can the make an easy river fold), and if I get just called on a semi dangerous board, I can just check back on the river. I'd like QJ hands to pay me as much as possible. That being said, I'm not sure whether I like my turn line all that much. I just didn't really want to call down. Now that I think about it, I probaly should have, in this situation. I was going to hate myself if he showed a worse ten or a busted draw, and hate myself just as much if he showed me 99 or 9T.Wang

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I agree. I reserve heroe's line for these situations against players who are aggro postflop and who have a wide range. In this spot you rarely have the best hand and Im guessing you are either up against an overpair or a set neither of which are folding. I think you need to call river. Your turn raise look suspicious, because its hard to tell what you are representing other than a bdfd, and your image is obviously shot so villain could be making this play w/ KT or 99 thinking you have 2 big suited hearts.

JJ+ is a tough range not to raise preflop, even for passive players, so an overpair is very unlikely. His range seems more like medium connecting cards, 99 or 22. TT is iffy. Not sure what he'd do with it there, preflop. Again, a hand like QJ isn't out of the question, or is 78. The pot was 4 handed, I think, when he c/red.WangEDIT- In my mind, the crux of the issue is: "He's passive enough that I'm rarely getting 3-bet. I'm sometimes ahead of a ten. I'm sometimes ahead of a draw. And when I'm behind, I can pick up an extra bet on the river." I figured I'm getting 3-bet ~25% of the time, and spike a heart or an ace to take the lead around the same amount of time. But when I catch up, I get an extra bet in, and when I don't I can fold.I think the problem with my reasoning was that I MIGHT get 3-bet a little more often than I believe, given his flop raise and turn lead once we're heads up. It might be closer to 40%, which makes my line probably a loser. (Though I don't mind, because I like spraying chips in games like this.)

[TheCinciKid 0]

Haven't read replies...I call turn and call river. I think the turn raise spewing quite frankly.

[Viper_13 0]

I'm calling the river, if it is a total blank. All draws missed. You said an overpair is out of the question, so I would call. With the way your running, he'll show you 22.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I'm calling the river, if it is a total blank. All draws missed. You said an overpair is out of the question, so I would call. With the way your running, he'll show you 22.

This doesn't make sense. When I get 3-bet, he's on a draw like 1/200 times. I think when I raise the turn, the play is 3 times worse if I call down.

[iggymcfly 0]

I don't like raising the turn against a TAP villian when you've only played two hands in two hours. Regardless of how aggressive you are, your image is that of a weak-tight nit, so if you are up against top pair, I think villian's going to fold to a turn raise a lot more often than you think here. If you think you're ahead on the flop, just go ahead and three-bet there and call down if it's capped. If you think villian's raising a narrow enough range that you're ahead less than 50%, the just call down from the first raise. As played on the flop and turn, folding the river's a close enough decision that it doesn't matter much either way, but playing live with a good read, I think you made the correct fold. If this was online, the river would be an auto-call.

[Abbaddabba 0]

He's passive, but not retarded. He'd still check/raise here with KT/QT or maybe even TJ. He COULD put a c/r in with a hand like QJ in a 3-handed pot like this, and probably would, but there's a chance he'd just call with his draw.

Why do you think he'd do all of those things?Tight/passive players at a 2/4 game arent too bright. Just because it's a really obvious play to us doesnt mean it is to him.I'd rather just 3bet the flop if i thought i was ahead often enough to justify the turn raise.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Why do you think he'd do all of those things?Tight/passive players at a 2/4 game arent too bright. Just because it's a really obvious play to us doesnt mean it is to him.I'd rather just 3bet the flop if i thought i was ahead often enough to justify the turn raise.

I'd seen him check/raise with top pair before. I've seen him lead into a LP aggressor when he flopped a draw, and I'd seen him check/raise with a similar draw. Maybe my characterization of him as a typical TP is bad. He's much more passive than he should be, and I saw him get into call-down mode too early when ahead with goodish hands. He's not a typical player by any means, though. The 5/10 game at Motor City is usually bad, but the 3/6 game is terrible. 5/10 is often filled with decent older players unwilling to play in the hyper-aggressive 10/20 game.If I just go ahead and 3-bet the flop, what's my plan if he caps?

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I don't like raising the turn against a TAP villian when you've only played two hands in two hours. Regardless of how aggressive you are, your image is that of a weak-tight nit, so if you are up against top pair, I think villian's going to fold to a turn raise a lot more often than you think here. If you think you're ahead on the flop, just go ahead and three-bet there and call down if it's capped. If you think villian's raising a narrow enough range that you're ahead less than 50%, the just call down from the first raise. As played on the flop and turn, folding the river's a close enough decision that it doesn't matter much either way, but playing live with a good read, I think you made the correct fold. If this was online, the river would be an auto-call.

The first and second boded parts seem to contradict. If he's folding top pair to a turn raise, why should I be calling down if he caps the flop?And the issue on the turn isn't just: "Am I ahead often enough here to raise for value?" It's "how often will he 3-bet, and how often will I catch up?" If he 3-bets 20% of the time and I hit an x-outer 25% of the time, then it seems like a 3-bet (since he'll almost always lead the river if he 3-bets, and call down when he has a legitimate hand if I catch up, etc.).Wang