Confusing Turn Play

[Bubba83 0]

Ultimate BetLimit Holdem Ring gameLimit: $2/$49 playersConverterPre-flop: (9 players) Hero is CO with Q A 4 folds, MP3 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls.Flop: Q 7 K (6.5SB, 3 players)BB bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls.Turn: T (4.75BB, 3 players)BB checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP3 raises, Hero calls, BB folds.River: 4 (9.75BB, 2 players)MP3 bets, Hero folds.Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to MP3.Results:Final pot: 9.75BBHow's this? Anyone raising the flop? Anyone check the turn? Anyone call the river? Still getting my bearings back and this hand confused the hell out of me when I got check raised on the turn...

[Zach6668 513]

Umm... I prefer a flop raise, I think, as we may have the best hand, and would like to charge the FD.We'll also find out very quickly if we don't have the best hand, via 3-bet.If we are 3-bet, then I call and fold turn UI. An improvement on the the turn is pretty much a club or a queen, probably not an ace, although I'd call down an ace.As played, I bet the turn as well, but that is the weirdest line ever by MP3.Given that weird turn line, I want to call the river for information, and because a flush would almost always just lead that turn once the aggressor checked it.

[Bubba83 0]

It's probably worth noting that MP3 had been limping about 60% of the time preflop with any kind of hand. His postflop play seemed okay and rather passive up to this point, and he never got out of line that I saw. Two pair hands like 10 7, Q 7, K 7 are not out of the question. I probably had played about 60 hands or so with him at the table before this came up.

[Actuary 3]

I raise flop.otherwise, I play the same.way too much beats you.

[beans422 0]

I raise the flop and if we're 3-bet then we fold turn unimproved. If they just call on the flop, then we fold to a c/r on the turn unimproved. Otherwise, fire all the way down.

[DonkSlayer 1]

I think raising the flop is ok with a board of less texture, but in this particular case, i think it's spewage quite often. Even if we're ahead, we're pricing in more than we're charging, I think.Pretty standard line w/ position, although I'm probably checking the turn pretty often, especially as played.

[Actuary 3]

What do you do if lead into on the turn?

[beans422 0]

What do you do if lead into on the turn?

I agree. You need to define hands, otherwise we're just guessing.

[DonkSlayer 1]

What do you do if lead into on the turn?

I agree. You need to define hands, otherwise we're just guessing.

Let me clarify by saying that one person we're likely pricing in with a marginal hand is ourselves.Assuming you mean that the BB leads again, Raise. screwem. If either has a good flush they'll 3-bet, and we can fold. If they have a bad flush or worse, we'll just get called and more than likely get checked to on the river as well.Obviously we're going to lead the turn if we raised the flop, but if mp3 calls the flop and raises us on the turn, wtf do we do then? We'd have to fold getting only 5:1ish on our likely 7:1ish call. If we take Hero's line (which I'm not necessarily endorsing) and just call the flop, we're getting even worse, but not dramatically different.I know you're going to come out with "why not spend 1sb on the flop rather than 1 bb on the turn", but you're fine with calling a c/r on the turn when the board straightens and flushes? The extra sb on the flop isn't going to define anyone's hand on the board. Again, if we were talking about a KQ5 rainbow, I feel a little better about raising the flop, although I like my line better methinks. I also think it was unnecessary, given the flop action, to lead the turn when checked to.

[Actuary 3]

fold the turn to a 3 bet with the NFD ?no way.the turn bet is pretty mandatory.We have best hand enough

[akishore 0]

i don't raise the flop. the only reason for raising is info i think, and i've never been a fan of that reason in lhe.i think op played the hand correctly every street. river can be a call if mp is out of line w/ the really weird turn cr.aseem

[Actuary 3]

Aseem,How do you play a blank turn, as most are, when BB bets into you, as he usually does ?and say MP foldsIt's the anticipation of this scenario that leads me to wanting to raise this flop.

[akishore 0]

Aseem,How do you play a blank turn, as most are, when BB bets into you, as he usually does ?and say MP foldsIt's the anticipation of this scenario that leads me to wanting to raise this flop.

good question. it's pretty read dependent and without a read i would just call (down).i know that sounds pretty passive and calling-station-ish, but... i hate using this term so much, it is reasonably wa/wb given most villain's three-betting-from-the-bb ranges.AK -- we are way behind. AQ -- we chop. AJ -- we are almost way ahead. AA -- we are way behind. KK -- we are way behind. QQ -- we are way behind. JJ and below -- we are way ahead (except a flopped set). KQ -- we are way behind. KJ -- we are way behind.i don't think our hand is great compared to this type of range, enough to raise for value anywhere. but i don't think we're so far off on average that we should fold in this reasonably large pot.i think a really interesting decision and one that i hate making is if bb checks a brick turn. i feel that i must bet, but i walk into an inevitable checkraise a big portion of the time. however, it's not a clear bet/fold bc a lot of those times those checkraises are bluffs by FPS/over-aggro opponents, but that's mostly in more mid-limit (20/40+) and shorthanded games. plus, if he has something like 88, he will frequently fold to a turn bet, so i am thinking i should be checking brick turns more often in this situation and going for a cheap showdown, potentially value betting any river if he checks again.aseem

[Actuary 3]

Aseem,this one is tough for me.

[Bubba83 0]

What if the hand plays as is in OP, but when we bet the turn the BB raises and MP3 folds? We obviously call on the turn with gutshot straight flush draw and nut flush draw, but do we fold to bets unimproved? I think if hand plays with the BB check raising the turn we should be showing down this hand on the river because the play isnt nearly as strong as the one MP3 made, agree?

[akishore 0]

What if the hand plays as is in OP, but when we bet the turn the BB raises and MP3 folds? We obviously call on the turn with gutshot straight flush draw and nut flush draw, but do we fold to bets unimproved? I think if hand plays with the BB check raising the turn we should be showing down this hand on the river because the play isnt nearly as strong as the one MP3 made, agree?

No, we should still be folding unimproved. BB three-bet out of position preflop, bet the flop, and checkraised the turn multiway. That's pretty strong.Aseem

[LuckyMcCatcher 0]

Ultimate BetLimit Holdem Ring gameLimit: $2/$49 playersConverterPre-flop: (9 players) Hero is CO with Q A 4 folds, MP3 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls.Flop: Q 7 K (6.5SB, 3 players)BB bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls.Turn: T (4.75BB, 3 players)BB checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP3 raises, Hero calls, BB folds.River: 4 (9.75BB, 2 players)MP3 bets, Hero folds.Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to MP3.Results:Final pot: 9.75BBHow's this? Anyone raising the flop? Anyone check the turn? Anyone call the river? Still getting my bearings back and this hand confused the hell out of me when I got check raised on the turn...

I dont mind a check on turn. If we are wa/wb why pay two to catch up? We can pay off river if it bricks and we have saved the same amount, but we can possibly value town river if it bricks and we are checked too again and JJ might pay off because of how wierd it was played.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I don't think I like raising this flop at all, mostly for the reasons Aseem stated.You probably have to make the overcall, barring some extreme read. And you probably have to bet the turn. And then you have to fold the river U/I.You're in rough shape here unless somebody's doing something real, real stupid, and that doesn't happen nearly often enough.I think the line is perfect.Wang

[Abbaddabba 0]

I also dont raise the flop. Call one bet the whole way, bet if checked to and fold if faced with two bets. Loose passives are really onto something.And i wouldnt consider checking through on the turn. Knowing only that they checked to you, you are more often than not beating both of them. And when you arent, you have 12 outs to the stone cold nuts and in most cases, about 14 clean cards in the deck.

[Bubba83 0]

Hi Abba, nice to see you again...Thanks for the analysis, but I want to know, would you call or fold the river?P.S.Did you used to have a Jules Asner avatar?

[Zach6668 513]

No, we should still be folding unimproved. BB three-bet out of position preflop, bet the flop, and checkraised the turn multiway. That's pretty strong.Aseem

No, MP3 c/r'ed the turn.

[akishore 0]

No, MP3 c/r'ed the turn.

It was in response to the hypothetical that BB checkraised.Aseem

[Zach6668 513]

It was in response to the hypothetical that BB checkraised.Aseem

Bleh, ok. I was wondering why I didn't pick up on it the first time I read it, lol, just jumped out at me as I skimmed over the thread this time..lol

[Abbaddabba 0]

Fold the river.You're almost never good.