Maybe We Can Get Some Good Discussion Out Of This

[zzz 0]

correct. Anger can be good... and happiness can be bad. What if you killed someone and were happy, is that positive? What if people were selling items inside a church in order to get rich off of worshippers by ripping them off, would anger towards them be negative?

Yes, of course.Anger is good is an opinion. Anger is a negative emotion is a fact. When you get angry, harmful chemicals are released in your brain, making you feel bad. When you are happy, good chemicals are released in your brain making you feel good. There is an instance in the Bible where Jesus got angry. If he was perfect, he wouldn't have hurt his body by getting angry. In every situation there are better ways of handling it than getting angry. Have a nice day!

[brvheart 1,752]

Yes, of course.Anger is good is an opinion. Anger is a negative emotion is a fact. When you get angry, harmful chemicals are released in your brain, making you feel bad. When you are happy, good chemicals are released in your brain making you feel good. There is an instance in the Bible where Jesus got angry. If he was perfect, he wouldn't have hurt his body by getting angry. In every situation there are better ways of handling it than getting angry. Have a nice day!

Your Retarded

When I took Chemistry in college my teacher forgot to tell me about the bad and good nature of chemicals. I should write him some hate mail.oh... and you're dead wrong. In the old testament God got angry, is God imperfect as well? ....nevermind, I might as well be arguing with a box of hair.[ /posting in any zzz dominated threads]I'm having a bad day.

[zzz 0]

When I took Chemistry in college my teacher forgot to tell me about the bad and good nature of chemicals. I should write him some hate mail.oh... and you're dead wrong. In the old testament God got angry, is God imperfect as well? ....nevermind, I might as well be arguing with a box of hair.[ /posting in any zzz dominated threads]I'm having a bad day.

An angry God is an imperfect God. Nothing wrong with being imperfect. Have a nice day!"Anger dwells only in the bosom of fools."-Albert Einstein

[KONGOS 0]

1) Try telling that to a homosexual2) If you need a book to tell you what your morals are I feel very sorry for you

Jesus never said anything about homosexuality...nothing at all.I think there's a pretty naive and narrow perception of Jesus and his teachings - most people have only ever read the four gospels (if they've even done that). Some are not even aware of the other gospels that weren't accepted into the NT. The Gospel of Thomas, The Gospel of Peace of Jesus Christ, The Gospel of Phillip, The Gospel of the Essenes etc. all have information that can help develop a different view of who Christ might have been. If you read some of these other gospels, you'll see that Jesus is referred to as "Teacher" or "Master". Jesus rarely if ever refers to himself as the "Son of God" other than when he teaches that everyone has the possibility of becoming the "Son of God". These other Gospels give the impression of a much more Eastern philosophy - the idea that "God" dwells within and is possibly the manifestation of one's higher consciousness...that it is possible to reach "Heaven" while still on Earth. When talking of fulfilling the "The Law", he doesn't necessarily mean the Old Testament. He could be talking about the laws that govern the different levels of consciousness of a being, something he talks about in the other gospels. He says in the Gospel of Peace when talking about The Commandments:"God gave, by Moses, ten commandments to your forefathers. 'These commandments are hard,' said your forefathers, and they could not keep them. When Moses saw this, he had compassion on his people, and would not that they perish. And then he gave them ten times ten commandments. For he whose feet are strong as the mountain of Zion, needs no crutches; but he whose limbs do shake, gets further having crutches, than without them. And Moses said to the Lord: 'My heart is filled with sorrow, for my people will be lost. For they are without knowledge, and are not able to understand thy commandments. They are as little children who cannot yet understand their father's words. Suffer, Lord, that I give them other laws, that they may not perish. if they may not be with thee, Lord, let them not be against thee; that they may sustain themselves, and when the time has come, and they are ripe for thy words, reveal to hem thy laws.' For that did Moses break the two tablets of stone whereon were written the ten commandments, and he gave them ten times ten in their stead. And of these ten times ten the Scribes and Pharisees have made a hundred times ten commandments. And they have laid unbearable burdens on your shoulders, that they themselves do not carry. For the more nigh are the commandments to God, the less do we need; and the farther they are from God, then the more do we need. Wherefore are the laws of the Pharisees and Scribes innumerable; the laws of the Son of Man seven; of the angels three; and of God one."Therefore, I teach you only those laws which you can understand, that you may become men, and follow the seven laws of the Son of Man. Then will the unknown angels of the Heavenly Father also reveal their laws to you, that God's holy spirit may descend upon you, and lead you to his law.".....It is believed by many historians and religious scholars that Jesus was possibly an Essene, a sect of Judaism that broke away from the mainstream Jewish teachings because they strongly disagreed with some of the "laws" including animal sacrifice (they were in fact vegetarians), circumcision, and violence of any kind. Most people know the title "Jesus of Nazareth", but what many archaeologists and historians believe is that there was no town called Nazareth and that he was "Jesus the Nazarene". Nazarenes were a sect of the Essenes. Hardcore Christians will never accept this and strongly argue against it but there is a lot of evidence that supports this idea - or at the very least warrants discussion, debate, and questioning.My belief is that Jesus was a man, a man with very wise teachings similar to those of the Buddha, Mohammed, Gurdjieff and others. He was not the "Son of God" in the conventional way of thinking. He was trying to raise the level of consciousness of the men and women around him. I believe he was a man on a much higher level than the average man and could have developed something that many eastern religions talk about - an energy, some may call it a soul, that lasts beyond the physical death...(maybe this gives new meaning to the story of his resurrection). We'll never know for sure, but for me, I cannot rule out the possibility.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Jesus never said anything about homosexuality...nothing at all.

No, but Paul said enough about homosexual sex to make it clear that it is sinful. There is no way around this if you believe the Bible.

I think there's a pretty naive and narrow perception of Jesus and his teachings - most people have only ever read the four gospels (if they've even done that). Some are not even aware of the other gospels that weren't accepted into the NT. The Gospel of Thomas, The Gospel of Peace of Jesus Christ, The Gospel of Phillip, The Gospel of the Essenes etc. all have information that can help develop a different view of who Christ might have been. If you read some of these other gospels, you'll see that Jesus is referred to as "Teacher" or "Master". Jesus rarely if ever refers to himself as the "Son of God" other than when he teaches that everyone has the possibility of becoming the "Son of God". These other Gospels give the impression of a much more Eastern philosophy - the idea that "God" dwells within and is possibly the manifestation of one's higher consciousness...that it is possible to reach "Heaven" while still on Earth. When talking of fulfilling the "The Law", he doesn't necessarily mean the Old Testament. He could be talking about the laws that govern the different levels of consciousness of a being, something he talks about in the other gospels. He says in the Gospel of Peace when talking about The Commandments:"God gave, by Moses, ten commandments to your forefathers. 'These commandments are hard,' said your forefathers, and they could not keep them. When Moses saw this, he had compassion on his people, and would not that they perish. And then he gave them ten times ten commandments. For he whose feet are strong as the mountain of Zion, needs no crutches; but he whose limbs do shake, gets further having crutches, than without them. And Moses said to the Lord: 'My heart is filled with sorrow, for my people will be lost. For they are without knowledge, and are not able to understand thy commandments. They are as little children who cannot yet understand their father's words. Suffer, Lord, that I give them other laws, that they may not perish. if they may not be with thee, Lord, let them not be against thee; that they may sustain themselves, and when the time has come, and they are ripe for thy words, reveal to hem thy laws.' For that did Moses break the two tablets of stone whereon were written the ten commandments, and he gave them ten times ten in their stead. And of these ten times ten the Scribes and Pharisees have made a hundred times ten commandments. And they have laid unbearable burdens on your shoulders, that they themselves do not carry. For the more nigh are the commandments to God, the less do we need; and the farther they are from God, then the more do we need. Wherefore are the laws of the Pharisees and Scribes innumerable; the laws of the Son of Man seven; of the angels three; and of God one."Therefore, I teach you only those laws which you can understand, that you may become men, and follow the seven laws of the Son of Man. Then will the unknown angels of the Heavenly Father also reveal their laws to you, that God's holy spirit may descend upon you, and lead you to his law.".....It is believed by many historians and religious scholars that Jesus was possibly an Essene, a sect of Judaism that broke away from the mainstream Jewish teachings because they strongly disagreed with some of the "laws" including animal sacrifice (they were in fact vegetarians), circumcision, and violence of any kind. Most people know the title "Jesus of Nazareth", but what many archaeologists and historians believe is that there was no town called Nazareth and that he was "Jesus the Nazarene". Nazarenes were a sect of the Essenes. Hardcore Christians will never accept this and strongly argue against it but there is a lot of evidence that supports this idea - or at the very least warrants discussion, debate, and questioning.My belief is that Jesus was a man, a man with very wise teachings similar to those of the Buddha, Mohammed, Gurdjieff and others. He was not the "Son of God" in the conventional way of thinking. He was trying to raise the level of consciousness of the men and women around him. I believe he was a man on a much higher level than the average man and could have developed something that many eastern religions talk about - an energy, some may call it a soul, that lasts beyond the physical death...(maybe this gives new meaning to the story of his resurrection). We'll never know for sure, but for me, I cannot rule out the possibility.

Jesus didn't claim to be the son of God till shortly before his death. Alot of the claims made in those other writings, gospels you mentioned have been proven false. That is why they weren't included in the Bible. That is not to say that the originals, if ever found, could contribute to what we know of Jesus. But because alot of those writings were altered (probably to make them more eastern friendly) they had to be fully rejected from inclusion in the Bible.

[Loismustdie 0]

Guy above made an interesting point- Christ didn't actually admit to being the son of God very often, he left it up to the observer to decide. The point was to let his actions do the talking. He was there to fulfill prophecy, and once that is done believers belief is cemented- he wasn't about making wild claims, just action. I think that whether you believe in the Bible or not, his teachings do stand on there own enough to merit a following of sorts. He never advocated anything but good, and his philosophies were sound.

[chrisuk_sw 0]

I think that whether you believe in the Bible or not, his teachings do stand on there own enough to merit a following of sorts. He never advocated anything but good, and his philosophies were sound.

Some of the teachings and sound philosophies of someone who advocated nothing but goodMatthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the (Old Testament) Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.Matthew 10:34-36 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn "a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw, a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."Matthew 13:10-13 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand."Mark 4:10-12 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, "they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!"Luke 16:16-17 "The (Old Testament) Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.and that's not even mentioning the views on women and on slaverySee also Paul's condemnation of gays (Romans 1:24-26), Paul's view of women (Romans 1:27), Paul's view on Jews (Romans 11:7-8, Titus1:10-12)... etc etc etc

[Nacho Libre 0]

Some of the teachings and sound philosophies of someone who advocated nothing but goodMatthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the (Old Testament) Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.Matthew 10:34-36 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn "a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw, a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."Matthew 13:10-13 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand."Mark 4:10-12 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, "they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!"Luke 16:16-17 "The (Old Testament) Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.and that's not even mentioning the views on women and on slaverySee also Paul's condemnation of gays (Romans 1:24-26), Paul's view of women (Romans 1:27), Paul's view on Jews (Romans 11:7-8, Titus1:10-12)... etc etc etc

All the money in the treasury says you couldn't interpet those scriptures if you tried. Go ahead, you have got an hour- I need to go to the bank. Tell me what each scripture you mentioned actually means. I will be back in an hour.

[chrisuk_sw 0]

All the money in the treasury says you couldn't interpet those scriptures if you tried. Go ahead, you have got an hour- I need to go to the bank. Tell me what each scripture you mentioned actually means. I will be back in an hour.

Matthew 5:17 Jesus has come to fulfill the barbaric and unjust OT laws Matthew 10:34-36 The spread of Christianity will bring war and violence to the world. So very very true.Matthew 13:10-13, Mark 4:10-12 Jesus speaks in parables so that people on the outside will not understand them and be condemned, like the seeds that fall on bad groundLuke 16:16-17 The barbaric and unjust OT laws cannot be changed. (reflected also in Matthew 5:18-20)... can you interpret Mark 11:20-25 for me?

[timwakefield 68]

I think that whether you believe in the Bible or not, his teachings do stand on there own enough to merit a following of sorts. He never advocated anything but good, and his philosophies were sound.

The only scary car accident I've been involved in was about 4 years ago. I was in the passenger's seat with my friend driving on the highway, and a blizzard started. The road got about an inch of snow on it in about 10 minutes, and all of a sudden we started drifting into the next lane. We smacked into a semi sideways (fortunately, or else we would have spun out and been in a much worse situation, since nobody could stop). Anyways we somehow managed to get over to the side of the road, and the trucker got out and was incredibly nice. The accident wasn't exactly our fault (unavoidable) but he was still really nice, and when we thanked him for that he said "well you know, I just think to myself, how would Jesus handle the situation?" That kind of gave me a lot of respect for that idea, WWJD. I always thought those WWJD bracelets and everything were lame (and they are kinda lame, you gotta admit), but I definitely think it's a good thing if people live their lives by the moral/ethical codes that he preached.

[Nacho Libre 0]

The only scary car accident I've been involved in was about 4 years ago. I was in the passenger's seat with my friend driving on the highway, and a blizzard started. The road got about an inch of snow on it in about 10 minutes, and all of a sudden we started drifting into the next lane. We smacked into a semi sideways (fortunately, or else we would have spun out and been in a much worse situation, since nobody could stop). Anyways we somehow managed to get over to the side of the road, and the trucker got out and was incredibly nice. The accident wasn't exactly our fault (unavoidable) but he was still really nice, and when we thanked him for that he said "well you know, I just think to myself, how would Jesus handle the situation?" That kind of gave me a lot of respect for that idea, WWJD. I always thought those WWJD bracelets and everything were lame (and they are kinda lame, you gotta admit), but I definitely think it's a good thing if people live their lives by the moral/ethical codes that he preached.

Years back I wore one of those bracelets and just felt lame- that's a good word for it. It's a good thought and I am sure that Jesus is all for it, but I just felt that the bracelet was an indication of things to come- boy, was I right. There is a bracelet for everything now. My thing now is, what would Nacho do? Since Lois is dead, or hiding, what would Nacho do? Wrestle in his stretchy pants, that's what.

[Nacho Libre 0]

Matthew 5:17 Jesus has come to fulfill the barbaric and unjust OT laws Matthew 10:34-36 The spread of Christianity will bring war and violence to the world. So very very true.Matthew 13:10-13, Mark 4:10-12 Jesus speaks in parables so that people on the outside will not understand them and be condemned, like the seeds that fall on bad groundLuke 16:16-17 The barbaric and unjust OT laws cannot be changed. (reflected also in Matthew 5:18-20)... can you interpret Mark 11:20-25 for me?

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. He is saying that he came to fullfill prophesy- there was quite a bit of prophesy, the only one I would consider barbaric was the one in which he willingly hung on a cross for mankind. That was a rough one. Another prophesy spoke of a new law. Do you even know what any of the prophesies were? Matthew 10:34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.[35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Lol. I have seen scripture butchered before, but this is probably the worst. What was christ sword? Was it a physical sword? No, it was the word of God. What does the word do? It divides, because not all can accept- many have tried but fall short of the glory of God. That scripture in no way shape or form is saying what you thought. Matthew 13:10-16 10] And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?[11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.[12] For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.[13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.[14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:[15] For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.[16] But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. Wrong again. He actually answers the question in 15- "Lest any time they should see with there eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." He is saying, if they get it, they get it- if they don't, their heart is not to follow me anyway. He is also saying, in a roundabout way, be happy that you get it. You didn't get it- get it? Luke 16:16-17 16] The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.[17] And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. Wrong again. The key words there are "until John"- now, figure out who John was- O.K., I will tell you- John was the one who sort of paved the way for Christ, sort of getting people ready for the idea of change. Mark 11:20-25 [20] And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.[21] And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.[22] And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.[23] For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.[24] Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.[25] And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. He is talking about faith, the power of belief. In a figurative way he is saying that through God all things are possible. Any other questions? Suffice to say you wont be getting all of the money in the Treasury, and at this point you actually owe me money.

[logic411 0]

I feel any religion text read as literature is fine. I recall doing just that when I was in 10th grade. It gives you a solid base as a person, regardless of whether you buy into the religion or not.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

... can you interpret Mark 11:20-25 for me?

When Jesus comes down to his church, (today) , or his people ( the jews back in Jesus' day) he expects to see fruit. A fruitless tree after so long is useless, and past a certain point might as well be destroyed. The condition of the human heart is the same. After so long a persons heart becomes so hardened that he has no chance (or desire) for redemption.One of several teachings on the Christian life in these verses.

[chrisuk_sw 0]

When Jesus comes down to his church, (today) , or his people ( the jews back in Jesus' day) he expects to see fruit. A fruitless tree after so long is useless, and past a certain point might as well be destroyed. The condition of the human heart is the same. After so long a persons heart becomes so hardened that he has no chance (or desire) for redemption.One of several teachings on the Christian life in these verses.

Mark 11:12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Mark 11:13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.Mark 11:14 Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.Jesus curses a fig tree when it is not the season for figs. This tree was not useless.... it was just not in season. And he destroys it! What a fine lesson for us all.

[Loismustdie 0]

Mark 11:12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Mark 11:13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.Mark 11:14 Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.Jesus curses a fig tree when it is not the season for figs. This tree was not useless.... it was just not in season. And he destroys it! What a fine lesson for us all.

Hey, I just found the next candidate for my ignore list. The lesson is simple- figs are awful. Anybody with tastebuds knows this.

[chrisuk_sw 0]

Jesus had no taste buds?

[chrisuk_sw 0]

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.He is saying that he came to fullfill prophesy- there was quite a bit of prophesy, the only one I would consider barbaric was the one in which he willingly hung on a cross for mankind. That was a rough one. Another prophesy spoke of a new law. Do you even know what any of the prophesies were?

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Matthew 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.You're ignoring the words of the text here. Jesus is not talking merely about prophecies in the Bible - he is talking about Old Testament Law (and "not the smallest letter will disappear"). Why do you think it mentions "the Law" twice in those passages? If it was prophecy that he's talking then it would have said "prophecies". And those Old Testament Laws are just wonderful- stoning people to death, burning the incestuous, killing all male prisoners of war etc.

Matthew 10:34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.Lol. I have seen scripture butchered before, but this is probably the worst. What was christ sword? Was it a physical sword? No, it was the word of God. What does the word do? It divides, because not all can accept- many have tried but fall short of the glory of God. That scripture in no way shape or form is saying what you thought.

Jesus says that Christianity will divide us and this decision will not be peaceful. How is my interpretation a butchery of that?

Matthew 13:10-16 10] And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?[11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.[12] For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.[13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.[14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:[15] For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.[16] But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.Wrong again. He actually answers the question in 15- "Lest any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." He is saying, if they get it, they get it- if they don't, their heart is not to follow me anyway. He is also saying, in a roundabout way, be happy that you get it.You didn't get it- get it?

[10] Disciples: Why do you speak to the masses in parables?[11] Jesus: You already know about heaven, but they don't[12] Jesus: Those that know like you will have everything. Those that don't will have nothing[13] Jesus: That's why I speak to the masses in parables, so that they won't understand[14] Jesus: This has been prophecised[15] Jesus: The masses are wicked - if they knew about heaven and understood, then I would save them[16] Jesus: But you'll be all right because you do understandJesus speaks in parables so that his message is deliberately obscure and not understood so as to damn those who do not understand. Yeesh. Why does Jesus not make his message clear and unambiguous so that more people are saved from damnation? Why not make the seed so hardy that it can flourish in bad ground and can overcome the thorns?I get it alright, I just think his motives here are dubious, at best. Why is it good that more people are not saved? He knows that if his message was clearer, then more would, he just chooses not to - but to them it is not given... lest they should see and I should heal them.

Mark 11:20-25 [20] And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.[21] And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.[22] And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.[23] For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.[24] Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.[25] And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.He is talking about faith, the power of belief. In a figurative way he is saying that through God all things are possible.Any other questions? Suffice to say you wont be getting all of the money in the Treasury, and at this point you actually owe me money.

See my posting above for my thoughts on the story of the fig tree- needless to say, I am not impressed that Jesus caused a perfectly good fig tree to wither out of spite for it not being the season for figs. All things are indeed possible through God- including using your miraculous powers for petty vandalism.

[Loismustdie 0]

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Matthew 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.You're ignoring the words of the text here. Jesus is not talking merely about prophecies in the Bible - he is talking about Old Testament Law (and "not the smallest letter will disappear"). Why do you think it mentions "the Law" twice in those passages? If it was prophecy that he's talking then it would have said "prophecies". And those Old Testament Laws are just wonderful- stoning people to death, burning the incestuous, killing all male prisoners of war etc.Jesus says that Christianity will divide us and this decision will not be peaceful. How is my interpretation a butchery of that?[10] Disciples: Why do you speak to the masses in parables?[11] Jesus: You already know about heaven, but they don't[12] Jesus: Those that know like you will have everything. Those that don't will have nothing[13] Jesus: That's why I speak to the masses in parables, so that they won't understand[14] Jesus: This has been prophecised[15] Jesus: The masses are wicked - if they knew about heaven and understood, then I would save them[16] Jesus: But you'll be all right because you do understandJesus speaks in parables so that his message is deliberately obscure and not understood so as to damn those who do not understand. Yeesh. Why does Jesus not make his message clear and unambiguous so that more people are saved from damnation? Why not make the seed so hardy that it can flourish in bad ground and can overcome the thorns?I get it alright, I just think his motives here are dubious, at best. Why is it good that more people are not saved? He knows that if his message was clearer, then more would, he just chooses not to - but to them it is not given... lest they should see and I should heal them.See my posting above for my thoughts on the story of the fig tree- needless to say, I am not impressed that Jesus caused a perfectly good fig tree to wither out of spite for it not being the season for figs. All things are indeed possible through God- including using your miraculous powers for petty vandalism.

You've proven your on par with ZZZ with the fig tree atardency-now, cut it out. That's just dumb. I am sorry, but it is. I will say this to you- let say you bought a book. Would you expect the author to come to your house and walk you through it? No. O.K., let's say your on the bus, and somebody is telling you a riddle. 1/4 of the bus gets it, the rest of the bus, it goes clear over their head- they just don't get it. If the teller of the riddle explains it to them, do you think the next time they hear a riddle they will understand it? No. Some people get it, some people don't. That is exactly what Christ is saying- people with a heart to listen and serve God, get it. Those who don't- well, they worry about Jesus harming fig trees. Not to mention- he was teaching a philosophy as much as he was bringing a new law. How many philosophers you know spoke in straightfoward sentences?

[chrisuk_sw 0]

Ah, so he doesn't want us fig-worriers to get it and that's why he speaks in parables. I would have thought it would be better that he spoke in a way that all could understand so that all could be saved, that's all.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Ah, so he doesn't want us fig-worriers to get it and that's why he speaks in parables. I would have thought it would be better that he spoke in a way that all could understand so that all could be saved, that's all.

No!! The whole point is that no matter how many parables he tells to make his point some people will never 'get it' it is not that he doesn't want you to get it, it is that some people (like yourself) will absolutely reject it no matter the effort made to help you understand.These parables are not hard to understand.You will have no excuse, because he has spoken to you in parables. You have completely missed the point.... which is the point.

[chrisuk_sw 0]

No. That is not what scripture says.Jesus clearly says he speaks in parables SO THAT people like me will never get it (lest they should see and I should heal them). It is nothing to do with "no matter how many parables he tells" - he deliberately gives his talks obscurely (in parables) so that his message is obscure. You are projecting your own wishes onto the verses. I ask again: why not make the seed so hardy that it can flourish on bad ground?Also, Loismustdie - I've been thinking about your reasons for censoring me from bringing up the story of the fig tree (wikipedia link)Betrand Russell in his essay "Why I Am Not A Christian" highlights this story as being a flaw, albeit a minor one, in Jesus' character. As you stated that Jesus "never advocated anything but good, and his philosophies were sound" and that he "let his actions do the talking", I would say that bringing this up was valid.

[Loismustdie 0]

No. That is not what scripture says.Jesus clearly says he speaks in parables SO THAT people like me will never get it (lest they should see and I should heal them). It is nothing to do with "no matter how many parables he tells" - he deliberately gives his talks obscurely (in parables) so that his message is obscure. You are projecting your own wishes onto the verses. I ask again: why not make the seed so hardy that it can flourish on bad ground?Also, Loismustdie - I've been thinking about your reasons for censoring me from bringing up the story of the fig tree (wikipedia link)Betrand Russell in his essay "Why I Am Not A Christian" highlights this story as being a flaw, albeit a minor one, in Jesus' character. As you stated that Jesus "never advocated anything but good, and his philosophies were sound" and that he "let his actions do the talking", I would say that bringing this up was valid.

Big suprise that your thoughts aren't your own. Just in case you didn't pick up on it, that's called sarcasm. The reader, because of the authors prior statements or previous reputation, is expected to understand this on his own, but being it's you I will hold your hand.

No. That is not what scripture says.Jesus clearly says he speaks in parables SO THAT people like me will never get it (lest they should see and I should heal them). It is nothing to do with "no matter how many parables he tells" - he deliberately gives his talks obscurely (in parables) so that his message is obscure. You are projecting your own wishes onto the verses. I ask again: why not make the seed so hardy that it can flourish on bad ground?Also, Loismustdie - I've been thinking about your reasons for censoring me from bringing up the story of the fig tree (wikipedia link)Betrand Russell in his essay "Why I Am Not A Christian" highlights this story as being a flaw, albeit a minor one, in Jesus' character. As you stated that Jesus "never advocated anything but good, and his philosophies were sound" and that he "let his actions do the talking", I would say that bringing this up was valid.

Also, lest means unless. He is saying that if they see, he will heal them.

[KONGOS 0]

No, but Paul said enough about homosexual sex to make it clear that it is sinful. There is no way around this if you believe the Bible. Jesus didn't claim to be the son of God till shortly before his death. Alot of the claims made in those other writings, gospels you mentioned have been proven false. That is why they weren't included in the Bible. That is not to say that the originals, if ever found, could contribute to what we know of Jesus. But because alot of those writings were altered (probably to make them more eastern friendly) they had to be fully rejected from inclusion in the Bible.

I am not a Christian so I believe there are things to learn from the Bible and things to be ignored including much of what Paul said. He was a man (a partly insane man in my opinion) that was persecuting Christians before he started preaching the ideas! Not only that...he preached ideas that Christ never even mentioned.A lot of the claims made in the other gospels were proven false?? Altered to make them more Eastern friendly?..and rejected because of that? Many of the gospels I mentioned where not found until the last 50-70 years. Some were found with the Dead Sea Scrolls - scrolls that are now used by many religious historians to reference accuracy in modern Bibles. Who were these gospels altered by? The men who wrote them between the years 70-160AD? Because that is when many of them can be dated to. I'm not ruling out the possibility of mistranslation or alteration because clearly that is the case in all writings that are that old (or even new ones for that matter) but I'd sure like to know where you read that the "claims were proven false". Proven false when compared to what? The writings in the KJB? Or did they have some sort of reliable recording device from 30AD so that we can prove Jesus did not say something attributed to him in the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of the Essenes or the New Testament for that matter?

[chrisuk_sw 0]

Big suprise that your thoughts aren't your own.Just in case you didn't pick up on it, that's called sarcasm. The reader, because of the authors prior statements or previous reputation, is expected to understand this on his own, but being it's you I will hold your hand.

Wow, a Christian accusing someone of not thinking things out for themselves... and I thought Americans didn't get irony. Not that it makes any difference, but I only found out about Bertrand Russell's views when I did some extra research on the fig tree story and after I had posted about it. You still haven't told me why you want to censor discussion about this flaw in Christ's character.

Also, lest means unless. He is saying that if they see, he will heal them.

Not in English it doesn't - dictionary.com, Merriam-WebsterLest means for fear that. Jesus says "I speak in parables for fear that they would understand and I would heal them". To me, this seems to be a flaw too, as someone wholely good would make his message clear so as to save as many people as possible.