Maybe We Can Get Some Good Discussion Out Of This

[Zealous Donkey 0]

I'll let you try this on your own...Imagine you wanted to create a cult for whatever reason.List the things that you would need to acheive for it to work.

OK, but if there is really a God who was all knowing and all powerful it would be appropriate for him to let us know where we stand and for us to defer to his infinate wisdom. I believe in God. A cult to me is a counterfit of the real thing. So yes you would want to mimic the real thing as much as possible. They say denial is one of the first signs of alcoholism, but someone who has never had a drink would also deny being an alchoholic. ( I think this analogy fits. :unsure:PS, This thread is getting really good IMO despite some midthread bickering. I hope everyone calms down because there has been some good discussion going back and forth. I am ready to get involved.

[crowTrobot 2]

I believe in God. A cult to me is a counterfit of the real thing. So yes you would want to mimic the real thing as much as possible.

members of every other cult and religion in the world think exactly the same thing about christians. yawn.

They say denial is one of the first signs of alcoholism, but someone who has never had a drink would also deny being an alchoholic.

in other words it's impossible to know the truth of a religion unless you brainwash yourself to believe it. that about sums it up.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

members of every other cult and religion in the world think exactly the same thing about christians. yawn.in other words it's impossible to know the truth of a religion unless you brainwash yourself to believe it. that about sums it up.

Crow there really are cults with brainwashed individuals and some ( maybe quite a few) so called "Christians" may well fall into that catagory, but I am not brainwashed, it actually makes sense to me. It is easy to lump all religions/cults into one big group and make blanket statements that they are all the same. It is impossible to argue with you when you are going to insist on putting Christianity and Scientology ( to borrow from Canada's analogy) in exactly the same catagory.

There is a sin in the New Testament that is completely unforgiveable - to blaspheme the Holy Ghost (Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3:29, Luke 12:10). If you deny the Holy Ghost, you are damned for all eternity without hope of redemption. Asking Jesus for forgiveness will not save you.As I deny the Holy Ghost, I can now never be saved by Jesus Christ, ever, no matter what I do. And if you have ever doubted the Holy Spirit, maybe only once in a moment of weakness and self-questioning, neither can you. I have heard of children being paralysed in terror at having had doubts about the truth at what they were taught, and now believing that this one slip has cursed them to eternal fire. I think this is highly damaging.

I have never heard one Christian pastor, priest, teacher, scholar ever describe that passage in the way you have characterized it above. It is common for people to fear committing an unforgivable sin. You may be speaking from first hand knowledge, but whether you are, or are just worried about the nightmares of children, your intrepatation of the scripture is ridiculous. It would be an interesting discussion talking about "the unforgivable sin" but I will leave it up to you to start another post. ( if you do start one, I will gladly participate) I have copy and pasted my response to a similar post you made in another thread.

[brvheart 1,752]

This entire 'cult' argument is stupid. It's all based on a 'control'. For Christians that 'control' should be the Bible. Assuming that the Bible is the inerrant word of God and is infallible. Does this particular church agree with the Bible on this point... how about this point... etc etc... If the church lines up perfectly with the Bible then that particular church is not a cult. That is why mormonism IS a cult. They claim to be 'christians' but have a completely different set of beliefs than the Bible.As for scientology, unless they claim to be Christians (which they do not), I just see them as another religion.

[crowTrobot 2]

Crow there really are cults with brainwashed individuals and some ( maybe quite a few) so called "Christians" may well fall into that catagory, but I am not brainwashed, it actually makes sense to me.

other cult/religion members also think their beliefs make perfect sense. yawn.

It is impossible to argue with you when you are going to insist on putting Christianity and Scientology ( to borrow from Canada's analogy) in exactly the same catagory.

it should only be impossible for you to argue if you're wrong lol.in fact, for practical purposes they are exactly the same. you only think christianity makes more sense than scientology because of cultural tradition. for example, to someone raised in a hindu culture both would be equally nonsensical.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

in fact, for practical purposes they are exactly the same. you only think christianity makes more sense than scientology because of cultural tradition. for example, to someone raised in a hindu culture both would be equally nonsensical.

Cultural tradition has little to do with why Christianity makes more sense than Scientology, and if someone of Hindu culture actually spent any time at all under the surface they would discern this fact as I have. I am surprised at how little regard you hold for such a large number of people. You really do think we are all morons.

[crowTrobot 2]

if someone of Hindu culture actually spent any time at all under the surface they would discern this fact as I have.

are you so emersed in your own tunnel-vision perspective that you can't see that they would say the exact same thing to you? to someone with an outside perspective christianity is nonsense for the same reasons scientology is nonsense to you.

I am surprised at how little regard you hold for such a large number of people. You really do think we are all morons.

you think 1 billion hindus are all morons?i don't think all christians are morons. they are just self-deluded in the same way as members of any other religion or cult are. there is no difference.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

are you so emersed in your own tunnel-vision perspective that you can't see that they would say the exact same thing to you? to someone with an outside perspective christianity is nonsense for the same reasons scientology is nonsense to you. you think 1 billion hindus are all morons?i don't think all christians are morons. they are just self-deluded in the same way as members of any other religion or cult are. there is no difference.

I know nothing about Hinduism, but If I did bother to delve into and sincerely study it's history, beliefs, ect, I feel confident that I would in the end still believe Christianity is the 1 true religion, but you make the mistake thinking that I decide this completely blind. Faith is involved, but I am not a Christian today because of my culture, or how I was raised. I am a Christian because I believe it to be true. I have chosen of my own free will. Even if I rejected Hinduism, I would still be able to discern between the merits of Scientology, and Hinduism. Hinduism may have alot of life wisdom to share with the world. I would be able to distinguish something like that from the complete nonsense dispensed by Scientologists.I guess it is possible to one day discover through my study that there is a better religion, or more than one true path to God, but as of now what I believe is that Christianity is the only true Church and some of the other major religions are heresys of Christianity.

[crowTrobot 2]

but you make the mistake thinking that I decide this completely blind.

no i don't. it's rare that a delusion doesn't have an underlying basis.

Faith is involved, but I am not a Christian today because of my culture, or how I was raised. I am a Christian because I believe it to be true. I have chosen of my own free will.

1. you were raised in a christian culture.2. you accept christianity and assume other religionsyou know nothing about necessarily make less sense.logically you have accepted christianity because of cultural exposure.

Even if I rejected Hinduism, I would still be able to discern between the merits of Scientology, and Hinduism. Hinduism may have alot of life wisdom to share with the world. I would be able to distinguish something like that from the complete nonsense dispensed by Scientologists.

please explain how scientology is more nonsensical than hinduism when you nothing about hinduism (and i assume very little about scientology).

I guess it is possible to one day discover through my study that there is a better religion, or more than one true path to God

dude, you just said "i guess it's possible to one day discover the bible is false" (since it specifically precludes all other belief). i think you need to work on your self-brainwashing a little more lol.

[solderz 0]

I know nothing about Hinduism, but If I did bother to delve into and sincerely study it's history, beliefs, ect, I feel confident that I would in the end still believe Christianity is the 1 true religion, but you make the mistake thinking that I decide this completely blind. Faith is involved, but I am not a Christian today because of my culture, or how I was raised. I am a Christian because I believe it to be true. I have chosen of my own free will.

You freely admit you know nothing about Hinduism and yet you still say that Christianity is more correct than Hinduism. And you say this had nothing to do with the way you were raised. So if you were raised as a Hindu you would still feel the same? Try being at least a little honest with yourself. But then again, self delusion is the main tenant of christianity.

[WrongWay 0]

Try being at least a little honest with yourself. But then again, self delusion is the main tenant of christianity religion.

[solderz 0]

And as far as Meriam Webster is concerned, here is the definition of cult: Main Entry: cultPronunciation: 'k&ltFunction: nounUsage: often attributiveEtymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotionSo, Christianity fits all but 3, 4, and 5 b. Fits the rest. It is a cult. Christians are cultists.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

no i don't. it's rare that a delusion doesn't have an underlying basis. 1. you were raised in a christian culture.2. you accept christianity and assume other religionsyou know nothing about necessarily make less sense.logically you have accepted christianity because of cultural exposure.please explain how scientology is more nonsensical than hinduism when you nothing about hinduism (and i assume very little about scientology).dude, you just said "i guess it's possible to one day discover the bible is false" (since it specifically precludes all other belief). i think you need to work on your self-brainwashing a little more lol.

Well, I believe you are the one that told me that Hinduism has 1 billion followers. It has also been around forever. Can 1 billion people be wrong? (hopefully you know the one word answer to this question raised in the movie visonquest) I have read the Scientology Bible, Dianetics. If you were to meet some good practicing Hindus, Christians, Muslums, Catholics, Protastants, you are going to be meeting people with alot in common. You would probably describe them as good, sincere people, level headed, and fair minded. If you met a group of practicing Scientologists you would be meeting Tom Cruize ( talk about a wack job ) , or Peoples Temple followers, satanists, ect. You would be meeting a very wide variety of lunitics ranging from semi passible as sane to those who are not alive to talk to because they all committed suicide. The whole point ( as small as it may seem) is that there is a difference between the major religions and what I call cults. They all aren't the same as you try to elude in every post on the web. They have very different individuals that make up these group. In the cults you will find brainwashed , mentally ill, abused, neglected, societies rejects. While all religions have their share of the above there is a definative difference in the personel. As far as not studying Hindu, maybe I will. But I don't feel a need to continue to search for something I have already found. I can't imagine any other religion be able to offer me more than Christianity but I will not rule out the possibility.

[WrongWay 0]

If you were to meet some good practicing Hindus, Christians, Muslums, Catholics, Protastants, you are going to be meeting people with alot in common. You would probably describe them as good, sincere people, level headed, and fair minded.

And deluded.

The whole point ( as small as it may seem) is that there is a difference between the major religions and what I call cults. They all aren't the same as you try to elude in every post on the web. They have very different individuals that make up these group. In the cults you will find brainwashed , mentally ill, abused, neglected, societies rejects. While all religions have their share of the above there is a definative difference in the personel.

Fringe people will navigate to fringe religions, while conformists will conform to the popularist religion of the society. Being less popular doesn't make they ideas any crazier.All religion delusions are equally whacked when viewed from an un-brainwashed, purely rational prespective.

[crowTrobot 2]

If you were to meet some good practicing Hindus, Christians, Muslums, Catholics, Protastants, you are going to be meeting people with alot in common. You would probably describe them as good, sincere people, level headed, and fair minded. If you met a group of practicing Scientologists you would be meeting Tom Cruize ( talk about a wack job ) , or Peoples Temple followers, satanists, ect. You would be meeting a very wide variety of lunitics ranging from semi passible as sane to those who are not alive to talk to because they all committed suicide.

the converts of every religion and cult represent a cross section. i know a few scientologists that are pretty "normal" people in the sense you are talking about (and stephen baldwin is a much bigger wack job than tom cruise lol).the only reason christianity or other major religions have a higher percentage of "normal" members is because of social acceptance due to cultural tradition. that does not mean mainstream religion is any more sensible than scientology. it just means it has been around a lot longer.there are a lot of pretty normal people who are satanists, too btw.

The whole point ( as small as it may seem) is that there is a difference between the major religions and what I call cults. They all aren't the same as you try to elude in every post on the web. They have very different individuals that make up these group. In the cults you will find brainwashed , mentally ill, abused, neglected, societies rejects. While all religions have their share of the above there is a definative difference in the personel.

if you think christianity isn't attracting an equal number of social rejects etc. as cults you're fooling yourself. it draws them in exactly the same way as any other cult does.

As far as not studying Hindu, maybe I will. But I don't feel a need to continue to search for something I have already found. I can't imagine any other religion be able to offer me more than Christianity but I will not rule out the possibility.

you're more of a pseudo new-age christian then? in it for the "life-wisdom" it offers and not really in it to save your soul lol?

[brvheart 1,752]

I guess it is possible to one day discover through my study that there is a better religion, or more than one true path to God, but as of now what I believe is that Christianity is the only true Church and some of the other major religions are heresys of Christianity.

um... wow.. please stop claiming to be a Christian. You will give us a bad name. (maybe I should say 'worse', instead of bad... since most people on this board already think: Atheists>Intellectuals>Darwin>Retarded People>Donkey poop>torturing babies>Pediphiles>Any member of a non-Christian religion>empty space>more empty space>Christians)

dude, you just said "i guess it's possible to one day discover the bible is false" (since it specifically precludes all other belief). i think you need to work on your self-brainwashing a little more lol.

That's pretty sad Donkey.

And as far as Meriam Webster is concerned, here is the definition of cult: Main Entry: cultPronunciation: 'k&ltFunction: nounUsage: often attributiveEtymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotionSo, Christianity fits all but 3, 4, and 5 b. Fits the rest. It is a cult. Christians are cultists.

Atheism falls into 1, 2, 3 and 5. Explanation to come.1) Atheists have profound respect and reverence for leading atheists. (see Crow's av)2) Atheists have a very tight body of adherents with a network and system of exchanging ideas. (see secular*.com .net .etc)3) Atheism is definately regarded as unorthodox by people outside the education or 'intellectual' sectors5) 5a- Obviously every atheist has great devotion to the idea and the people involved in intellectualism(the absence of God).5b- Atheists compared to non-atheists is a very small group indeed.

[WrongWay 0]

Atheism falls into 1, 2, 3 and 5. Explanation to come.

Dis-Belief in God is no more "formal religious veneration" than dis-belief in dragons, ghosts, UFO abductions, poltergeists, ferries, pixies, goblins...

[brvheart 1,752]

It's very important to note that I don't believe atheism is a cult. The point is that anyone that says that Christianity or Islam or Hinduism, etc etc... are cults... is just pretty darn stupid.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

um... wow.. please stop claiming to be a Christian. You will give us a bad name. (maybe I should say 'worse', instead of bad... since most people on this board already think: Atheists>Intellectuals>Darwin>Retarded People>Donkey poop>torturing babies>Pediphiles>Any member of a non-Christian religion>empty space>more empty space>Christians)That's pretty sad Donkey.Atheism falls into 1, 2, 3 and 5. Explanation to come.1) Atheists have profound respect and reverence for leading atheists. (see Crow's av)2) Atheists have a very tight body of adherents with a network and system of exchanging ideas. (see secular*.com .net .etc)3) Atheism is definately regarded as unorthodox by people outside the education or 'intellectual' sectors5) 5a- Obviously every atheist has great devotion to the idea and the people involved in intellectualism(the absence of God).5b- Atheists compared to non-atheists is a very small group indeed.

Give me a break, please. Read all my post and don't just use parts out of context. I was making the point that becoming a Christian wasn't a brainless or brainwashed activity for me. I also said that I have already found the truth and can't imagine finding anything close to Christianity.The Bible is an amazing document that goes so much deeper than where these athiests are willing to go. I understand that and it is one of the many strenths of Christianity.

[Mattnxtc 0]

There is no christian that can admit with 100% certainty that they are correct....just as no athiest will ever be able to admit that there is no God. So far no evidence has come out that proves the bible wrong. The best theory so far is that there could be parallel multiverses. Maybe one day this will prove to be correct maybe not...but i think that b/c u choose to question things doesnt make u less of a christian. I think a good christian does question everything

[crowTrobot 2]

So far no evidence has come out that proves the bible wrong.

lol

[Zealous Donkey 0]

The best theory so far is that there could be parallel multiverses What is this parallel multiverse you speak of??

[chrisuk_sw 0]

1) Atheists have profound respect and reverence for leading atheists. (see Crow's av)2) Atheists have a very tight body of adherents with a network and system of exchanging ideas. (see secular*.com .net .etc)3) Atheism is definately regarded as unorthodox by people outside the education or 'intellectual' sectors5) 5a- Obviously every atheist has great devotion to the idea and the people involved in intellectualism(the absence of God).5b- Atheists compared to non-atheists is a very small group indeed.

I think this is a bit disingenuous. The only point of agreement between atheists is that we do not have a belief in God. Atheism is not a philosophy, creed, culture or movement of any kind. For most, its not even a denial that God exists - its just a lack of belief that God exists. Most atheists don't even consider their atheism at all, we just accept that we're here and we should make the most of this incredible opportunity that we have.

The Bible is an amazing document that goes so much deeper than where these athiests are willing to go. I understand that and it is one of the many strenths of Christianity.

The great thing about atheism is that there is nowhere you are not allowed to go - except to believe in a supernatural entity. We are free to view the world, experience it, to measure our observations and then formulate theories about what we have seen. That is true depth of thought. No one text tells me what is true. The quest for truth has no limits or walls, and at the edge of our incomplete knowledge there are exciting and interesting theories...

The best theory so far is that there could be parallel multiverses What is this parallel multiverse you speak of??

There are many multiverse theories, the two that I know best are:- The "Big Bounce" or "Oscillatory universe" theory, that after a Big Bang will follow a Big Crunch, which will then respawn another universe in a Big Bang, and this process continues indefinitely- The "Bubble Theory" where there are multiple independent universes co-existing with their own spacetimes, without possibility of any information passing between universes, and new universes are being spawned all the timeWikipedia link

[Flack_attack 0]

To Crow:Christianity does make more sense than Scientology. Scientology, to quote the immortal South Park, is "way more retarded" than thinking God sent His son to save the world. Scientology (they claim) is based on science. However, the religion is easily disproved by the institution (science) that supposedly supports and proves its tenets. Christianity, while not neccesarily mutually exclusive with science, is based on faith, faith in God and his Son. This faith is not (though you may disagree) disproved by itself.

[brvheart 1,752]

Give me a break, please. Read all my post and don't just use parts out of context. I was making the point that becoming a Christian wasn't a brainless or brainwashed activity for me. I also said that I have already found the truth and can't imagine finding anything close to Christianity.The Bible is an amazing document that goes so much deeper than where these athiests are willing to go. I understand that and it is one of the many strenths of Christianity.

I read your entire post. This is the only part I found extremely troubling.

I know nothing about Hinduism, but If I did bother to delve into and sincerely study it's history, beliefs, ect, I feel confident that I would in the end still believe Christianity is the 1 true religion, but you make the mistake thinking that I decide this completely blind. Faith is involved, but I am not a Christian today because of my culture, or how I was raised. I am a Christian because I believe it to be true. I have chosen of my own free will. Even if I rejected Hinduism, I would still be able to discern between the merits of Scientology, and Hinduism. Hinduism may have alot of life wisdom to share with the world. I would be able to distinguish something like that from the complete nonsense dispensed by Scientologists.I guess it is possible to one day discover through my study that there is a better religion, or more than one true path to God, but as of now what I believe is that Christianity is the only true Church and some of the other major religions are heresys of Christianity.

huh? Christianity is not a religion... I believe in God the Father almightyMaker of Heaven and Maker of EarthAnd in Jesus ChristHis only begotten Son, our LordHe was conceived by the Holy SpiritBorn of the virgin MarySuffered under Pontius PilateHe was crucified and dead and buriedI believe that He who sufferedWas crucified, buried, and deadHe descended into hell andOn the third day, rose againHe ascended into Heaven whereHe sits at God's mighty right handI believe that He's returning toJudge the quick and the deadOf the sons of menI believe in God the Father almightyMaker of Heaven and Maker of EarthAnd in Jesus Christ His only begotten Son, Our LordI believe in the Holy SpiritOne Holy Church, the communion of SaintsThe forgiveness of sinI believe in the resurrectionI believe in a life that never ends And I believe what I believeIs what makes me what I amI did not make it, no it is making meIt is the very truth of God and notThe invention of any man"Christianity" is a relationship that a person has with God that should grow every day. Either Jesus is the only way to heaven or he isn't. There will never be a 'more true path to God'. And I believe that any 'Christian', that thinks this might be possible, probably doesn't have a personal relationship with Jesus... either that, or is a very young/baby Christian.

There is no christian that can admit with 100% certainty that they are correct....just as no athiest will ever be able to admit that there is no God. So far no evidence has come out that proves the bible wrong. The best theory so far is that there could be parallel multiverses. Maybe one day this will prove to be correct maybe not...but i think that b/c u choose to question things doesnt make u less of a christian. I think a good christian does question everything

question? maybe. But certainly not "admit" that "I guess it is possible to one day discover through my study that there is a better religion, or more than one true path to God." I'm actually pretty surprised at this post from you Matt. That's not bad or good, just surprising.btw, Donkey, while I'm certainly 'calling you out'... I am by no means trying to put you down. I'm just hoping that you mistyped what you said, or didn't really think it through.

I think this is a bit disingenuous.

Exactly. That was the entire point. It is equally disingenuous to proclaim Christianity a cult. If you read my post immediately after that one I explained this already.

The only point of agreement between atheists is that we do not have a belief in God. Atheism is not a philosophy, creed, culture or movement of any kind. For most, its not even a denial that God exists - its just a lack of belief that God exists. Most atheists don't even consider their atheism at all, we just accept that we're here and we should make the most of this incredible opportunity that we have.

This is basically completely incorrect, but especially the bolded part.