The Old Testament

[Canada 0]

Apparently this is way over your head.

This from a guy who thinks the oceans would float away if we didn't have the moon and doesn't know the meaning of the word 'lest'?Give me a break.There isn't a single concept that you could understand that would ever go over my ankles let alone my head.Perhaps you could address the points in question instead of changing the subject as you do every time you lose an argument...

[Mattnxtc 0]

Where was the intervention when Peter denied Jesus?

This is actually a great example of showing how free will and an all knowing deity can coexist. The prophecy was there and yet you see that Peter made every choice that led up to him doing as prophecized

because people who knew about the prophecies made up stories to fit them.

funny thing is u require evidence from us so wheres that evidence

[Canada 0]

This is actually a great example of showing how free will and an all knowing deity can coexist. The prophecy was there and yet you see that Peter made every choice that led up to him doing as prophecized

Nooooo, because free will and an all knowing entity can't exist, this is a great example showing that the Bible is a work of fiction.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Nooooo, because free will and an all knowing entity can't exist, this is a great example showing that the Bible is a work of fiction.

another worthless post by canada...Am intersted to hear from crow as he is actually smart

[Canada 0]

another worthless post by canada...Am intersted to hear from crow as he is actually smart

You really are a pathetic piece of drivel aren't you?If you respect crow's opinion then why don't you answer his question? He is still waiting on your explaination of how free will and knowledge of the future can co-exist. Its only a few posts up, have a look. Post #166And why do you think he has to ask the question? Because your contribution, beyond a dictionary definition, has been...

wrong again crow

think about it..it will come to you

except that free will can exist with an all knowing being

do i have yet to see how God interferes with free will...its been shown over and over that He doesnt

Really in depth responses Just sayin don't make it so.And you call my post worthless...

[Loismustdie 0]

This from a guy who thinks the oceans would float away if we didn't have the moon and doesn't know the meaning of the word 'lest'?Give me a break.There isn't a single concept that you could understand that would ever go over my ankles let alone my head.Perhaps you could address the points in question instead of changing the subject as you do every time you lose an argument...

That's the point. They have been addressed. You just don't get it, for whatever reason, it's above your head. Is this what you do in your life? If someone makes a mistake, beat them over the head with it till the very thought of you makes them vomit? You have got to be the single most hateful intolerant person on this site, and that's saying alot, considering the roster of members. For the last time, just to dumb it down for you, the future cannot be defined by us as humans because we cannot see it, cannot fathom it, can't even come close. God does, and did, give us definite points that would happen, signs if you will, all leading up to his return which only he knows when will happen- so, is his return a definite day? We don't know. Does he know? Maybe. I don't know. Why don't I know? Why can't I even venture a guess? Because the landscape which he observes, the rules which he operates at are different then I do, it's outside of what I comprehend at times, and to most people that makes sense. Not you, though. If it's God, or a message about God, or in anyway crosses what your limited scope can take in you go beserk, and ramble on and on about liars, and how you hate them, and blah blah blah blah blah. You hate God, period, and anybody that has anything to do with him. Why even come in a religous forum? You've got nothing to add except how much you hate religion. So, dissapear. I guarantee no one will miss you, and the forum will be a better plavce for it.

[Mattnxtc 0]

You really are a pathetic piece of drivel aren't you?If you respect crow's opinion then why don't you answer his question? He is still waiting on your explaination of how free will and knowledge of the future can co-exist. Its only a few posts up, have a look. Post #166And why do you think he has to ask the question? Because your contribution, beyond a dictionary definition, has been...Really in depth responses Just sayin don't make it so.And you call my post worthless...

another worthless post from you...lois crow and myself have all put ideas out there and backed them up..u choose to show comments directing people back to a main idea...can we do the same with ur posts? of course notkeep being worthless

[Flack_attack 0]

Why even come in a religous forum? You've got nothing to add except how much you hate religion. So, dissapear. I guarantee no one will miss you, and the forum will be a better plavce for it.

Canada has just as much right show how he thinks religion is stupid as you or I do to show our we think our religion is right; all views should be examined equally and have equal validity (except of course, zzz). Though I for one may disagree with Canada time to time, and concede that he can be a tiny bit jerkified sometimes (who can't?), I appreciate his contribution and constant questioning in this forum. In my opinion, he is one of the if not the most intelligent poster on all of FCP.

[Loismustdie 0]

Canada has just as much right show how he thinks religion is stupid as you or I do to show our we think our religion is right; all views should be examined equally and have equal validity (except of course, zzz). Though I for one may disagree with Canada time to time, and concede that he can be a tiny bit jerkified sometimes (who can't?), I appreciate his contribution and constant questioning in this forum. In my opinion, he is one of the if not the most intelligent poster on all of FCP.

Thanks alot. I just pooed myself. I agree- he's intelligent. However, it's wasted when it's overall use is general assholery. I don't follow him outside the religous forum, I can't attest to his value out there. In here, it's an excercise in trying to have a decent discussion with a bullhorn going off the whole time-"God's not real!! You don't believe in Dinosaurs!! A year ago you showed a blatant misunderstanding pertaining to gravity!! God's not real!! Christians are blind!! You're a liar!! You don't know what lest means!! God's not real!! You're a liar!! Faith is an illusion!! God could be the Easter bunny!! Christ was the product of a fairy tale!! God's not real!! You're a liar!!" Every day. It's old. It's stale. He's got no new ideas to discuss. He's allowed himself to become a broken record. That's all I am saying.

[Canada 0]

another worthless post from you...lois crow and myself have all put ideas out there and backed them up..u choose to show comments directing people back to a main idea...can we do the same with ur posts? of course notkeep being worthless

Go look at posts 112, 118 & 120.Good solid explanaitions as to why free will and a determined future can't co-exist.Now as to your contribution.Post 133 which is a dictionary definition, wow great contribution.The posts I highlighted above. Profound stuff thereAnd post 127, where you actually state

whatever u do, you were always meant to do at that very moment. I was always going to type this out and that never changed....

Which actually demonstrates against your argument!! lol Free will means you are able to determine or choose your own future. Therefore you are never meant to do anything.Now how about answering crows question (post 166 in case you forgot) because in case you can't tell we are both driving at the same point - you haven't added anything to this free will debate beyond comedy.

[Canada 0]

Canada has just as much right show how he thinks religion is stupid as you or I do to show our we think our religion is right; all views should be examined equally and have equal validity (except of course, zzz). Though I for one may disagree with Canada time to time, and concede that he can be a tiny bit jerkified sometimes (who can't?), I appreciate his contribution and constant questioning in this forum. In my opinion, he is one of the if not the most intelligent poster on all of FCP.

Thanks Flack, appreciate the post.I agree that I do come across as 'jerkified' (nice word ) in cases, however i ask you to look where & with whom that tone comes across.I personally believe that one's 'life philosophy', whether it be based in any form of theism, agnosticism or atheism is a precious thing and should be developed in the full light of day, based on fact & truth.Nothing sickens me more than those that espouse lies and propaganda as part of their chosen philosophy, whether it's a theist demonstrating false proof for their deity or a scientist ignoring results in order to achieve a 'correct' conclusion.If these were private conversations these defects could be ignored and left to rest in the pursuit of peace however this is a public forum that receives a lot of traffic. Some of those reading here will actually be searching for answers, not necessarily searching the forum for answers, but undecided on a few matters regardless.I feel it is necessary to ensure that people in this situation are shown who is spreading lies and deceit, whether it is their own or one they have unknowingly adopted. In fact on some levels I am doing your job for you. Should you not be calling out those that spread untruths in the name of Jesus? Granted your approach would be a little gentler, however I am afflicted with an amazingly low tolerance of fools. For the record, however, I don't consider someone with a room temperature IQ like Mattnxtc or Loismustdiet to be a fool. A fool is someone who, when shown to be wrong can't admit it and won't learn from it. Also keeping these fools in a constant state of apoplectic rage ensures that they will eventually out themselves. (I've just given up one of my best kept secrets )Posters like yourself I really respect because, like myself, you appreciate that you don't have all the answers and are willing to admit when you are wrong or listen/ask questions when confused. Yet you're a Christian! Wow, who could've thought (sw).I'll get off my soapbox now, but I'll close by saying that my posts in this forum contain no lies, deceit or propaganda. I don't need to change the subject when I lose an argument and I always give evidence for anything I claim as fact. Whereas if I have antagonised anyone without apology or explanation, their posts fail the same standards.There is a challenge b!tches. Care to take me up on it?

[Mattnxtc 0]

Go look at posts 112, 118 & 120.Good solid explanaitions as to why free will and a determined future can't co-exist.Now as to your contribution.Post 133 which is a dictionary definition, wow great contribution.The posts I highlighted above. Profound stuff thereAnd post 127, where you actually stateWhich actually demonstrates against your argument!! lol Free will means you are able to determine or choose your own future. Therefore you are never meant to do anything.Now how about answering crows question (post 166 in case you forgot) because in case you can't tell we are both driving at the same point - you haven't added anything to this free will debate beyond comedy.

im not sure whats more pathetic..the fact that u have gone through this entire thread looking for those 3 or 4 posts where i dont make a point but refer to a point or that u still havent added anything of valueYes the dictionary definition of free will was important b/c it proves one point but i guess u werent smart enough to see that...ill repost it just for u so uc an feel important...let me know what is interesting about the definition:free will 1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.2. Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.So what do u see that is important about this canada...if u want to be apart of the conversation for once...lets talk...what about this definition does anything to say that God and free will cannot coexist? Ill even give u a hint (nothing)I dont have the time to go see what crow wrote but im sure since u do have the time u can repost ito and flack i agree he has as much right as anybody to post...the problem is his posts amount to callin any christian idea stupid...not real condusive to discussion is it? I havent said anything about crows responses b/c he brings intelligent things to discuss...wouldnt have anything to say about canada if he did the same

[crowTrobot 2]

again, you don't have to mention god to make the point.to have that definition of actual free will you must postulate a timeline with a defined direction to time, and potentially branching cause and effect in that direction.given at some point in time a person makes a decision that is based on actual (not illusionary) free will, that decision must necessarily be indeterminite UNTIL that point is reached on the timeline. therefor it must be fundamentally impossible to:A: predict the outcome of that decision with 100% accuracy. otherwise the decision is BY DEFINITION not indeterminate, and other prior factors besides free will at the point of the decision are determining it's outcome - the decision must be the result of preceding cause and effect, or it would not be predictable.B: view the unchanging results of the decision from "outside" the timeline. shifting perspective beyond or outside the timeline in any way is essentually the same thing as viewing all events on the timeline as entirely in the past - so everything must be fixed and predetermined before that point in the timeline can be viewed."knowing" something requires that something, whatever it is - the future or any other knowledge, to be fixed and predetermined, and a predetermined future is BY DEFINITION incompatable with free will. why is that so hard to grasp?

[Loismustdie 0]

Thanks Flack, appreciate the post.I agree that I do come across as 'jerkified' (nice word ) in cases, however i ask you to look where & with whom that tone comes across.I personally believe that one's 'life philosophy', whether it be based in any form of theism, agnosticism or atheism is a precious thing and should be developed in the full light of day, based on fact & truth.Nothing sickens me more than those that espouse lies and propaganda as part of their chosen philosophy, whether it's a theist demonstrating false proof for their deity or a scientist ignoring results in order to achieve a 'correct' conclusion.If these were private conversations these defects could be ignored and left to rest in the pursuit of peace however this is a public forum that receives a lot of traffic. Some of those reading here will actually be searching for answers, not necessarily searching the forum for answers, but undecided on a few matters regardless.I feel it is necessary to ensure that people in this situation are shown who is spreading lies and deceit, whether it is their own or one they have unknowingly adopted. In fact on some levels I am doing your job for you. Should you not be calling out those that spread untruths in the name of Jesus? Granted your approach would be a little gentler, however I am afflicted with an amazingly low tolerance of fools. For the record, however, I don't consider someone with a room temperature IQ like Mattnxtc or Loismustdiet to be a fool. A fool is someone who, when shown to be wrong can't admit it and won't learn from it. Also keeping these fools in a constant state of apoplectic rage ensures that they will eventually out themselves. (I've just given up one of my best kept secrets )Posters like yourself I really respect because, like myself, you appreciate that you don't have all the answers and are willing to admit when you are wrong or listen/ask questions when confused. Yet you're a Christian! Wow, who could've thought (sw).I'll get off my soapbox now, but I'll close by saying that my posts in this forum contain no lies, deceit or propaganda. I don't need to change the subject when I lose an argument and I always give evidence for anything I claim as fact. Whereas if I have antagonised anyone without apology or explanation, their posts fail the same standards.There is a challenge b!tches. Care to take me up on it?

My last post clearly proven. Predictable as always. Clearly you have issues that are much bigger than your lack of belief in God. I would sympathize, but I don't care nearly enough.

[Mattnxtc 0]

again, you don't have to mention god to make the point.to have that definition of actual free will you must postulate a timeline with a defined direction to time, and potentially branching cause and effect in that direction.given at some point in time a person makes a decision that is based on actual (not illusionary) free will, that decision must necessarily be indeterminite UNTIL that point is reached on the timeline. therefor it must be fundamentally impossible to:A: predict the outcome of that decision with 100% accuracy. otherwise the decision is BY DEFINITION not indeterminate, and other prior factors besides free will at the point of the decision are determining it's outcome - the decision must be the result of preceding cause and effect, or it would not be predictable.B: view the unchanging results of the decision from "outside" the timeline. shifting perspective beyond or outside the timeline in any way is essentually the same thing as viewing all events on the timeline as entirely in the past - so everything must be fixed and predetermined before that point in the timeline can be viewed."knowing" something requires that something, whatever it is - the future or any other knowledge, to be fixed and predetermined, and a predetermined future is BY DEFINITION incompatable with free will. why is that so hard to grasp?

if i could use graphs on here it would be quite a bit easier to explain it..i will think about how to right it more clearly for u to see what i mean....it appears ur confusing God interefence with God being outside time though

[crowTrobot 2]

if i could use graphs on here it would be quite a bit easier to explain it..i will think about how to right it more clearly for u to see what i mean....it appears ur confusing God interefence with God being outside time though

i didn't say anything about intervening, or god at all.i said free will requires our choices to be undetermined before we make them, and something undetermined can't be known with certainty. don't know how it put it any more simply.

[Mattnxtc 0]

i didn't say anything about intervening, or god at all.i said free will requires our choices to be undetermined before we make them, and something undetermined can't be known with certainty. don't know how it put it any more simply.

The point that God plays no part in the definition of free will is the main point of my argument...meaning that even if God is there it wont play a piont with also ur other problem is that you have trouble in with the concept of time...u struggle with how to view time and it hurts the conversation. yes the future is in the future but at t+x something is going to happen in that moment is going to happen. now if i make the claim that God it outside of time...the i can say he can go to that period and see what u do...its the same concept as if u watch a dvd...you can fast forward to see who the killer is and then rewind back some scene before then...it still doesnt change the fact that at t+x the killer is going to be revealed. So now u are able to watch the movie and see what events lead up to that revealing. Its no different except that God has seen the entire dvd that is life.

[brvheart 1,752]

The point that God plays no part in the definition of free will is the main point of my argument...meaning that even if God is there it wont play a piont with also ur other problem is that you have trouble in with the concept of time...u struggle with how to view time and it hurts the conversation. yes the future is in the future but at t+x something is going to happen in that moment is going to happen. now if i make the claim that God it outside of time...the i can say he can go to that period and see what u do...its the same concept as if u watch a dvd...you can fast forward to see who the killer is and then rewind back some scene before then...it still doesnt change the fact that at t+x the killer is going to be revealed. So now u are able to watch the movie and see what events lead up to that revealing. Its no different except that God has seen the entire dvd that is life.

Crow, if you think that this explanation doesn't make sense, you are not using common sense. nh Matt.

[Canada 0]

The point that God plays no part in the definition of free will is the main point of my argument...meaning that even if God is there it wont play a piont with also ur other problem is that you have trouble in with the concept of time...u struggle with how to view time and it hurts the conversation. yes the future is in the future but at t+x something is going to happen in that moment is going to happen. now if i make the claim that God it outside of time...the i can say he can go to that period and see what u do...its the same concept as if u watch a dvd...you can fast forward to see who the killer is and then rewind back some scene before then...it still doesnt change the fact that at t+x the killer is going to be revealed. So now u are able to watch the movie and see what events lead up to that revealing. Its no different except that God has seen the entire dvd that is life.

If you make that claim then you should provide some explanation as to what it means. It makes for a pretty little phrase, but essentially its just nonsense. There is no 'inside' time or 'outside' time. Fantastic that your explanation, whilst still incorrect, needs you to create new ways for the universe to work.You can try to take God 'outside time' all you want, but the fact remains that we are stuck firmly within it. I don't need to break out the special theory of relativity here do I? Oh that's right, its just a theory backed with mountains of practical evidence, so it's worthless as evolution. However feel free to introduce new concepts like 'outside time' with only rhetoric to bring to the table...Anyway as I was saying we are stuck firmly 'within time' so if God wants to interact with us like, I dunno, creating us or watching over us, he has to play by the same rules we do.Now I know you will attempt to claim this as nonsense or worthless so lets try a simple little concrete example. God agrees to play a game with us. The rules are simple in that he is to put a stone in one of two boxes and if I open the correct box and take out the stone I win, otherwise God wins.Nothing impossible or implausible there. Of course in reality God is not going to waste his time (that's the time he's inside right?) with this game, but you have to admit that this scenario could happen. There is nothing impossible about it, no logical constucts from preventing it from happening, outside the one obvious assumption that God exists. So lets assume he does.Now God is all powerful and all knowing and now has new superpowers of being outside time so he gets to 'travel' to the future to see what choice I make and puts the stone in the other box. Looks like God will win pretty easy.Only problem for God is that the boxes are made of glass.If God can see the future, the only way I can lose this game is if I don't have free will.Wow! Doesn't look like God is 'outside time' to me.Until you can demonstrate how your all-powerful God can win this game without forcing me to change my choice (ie removing my free will) you have a major sticking point.

Crow, if you think that this explanation doesn't make sense, you are not using common sense. nh Matt.

It makes sense in the way that Star Trek makes sense. A lot of it sounds reasonable but when examined with reality in mind, some of it becomes impossible.It's easy to believe these explanations if you want to (read: need to) but if you sit back and look at them objectively it is very easy to see the flaws. It's one of the major appeals of religion. All powerful entities that explain away the unexplainable, until of course the true explanation is uncovered and then the arguments begin.Of course if you think I am wrong, perhaps you can explain how God would win the game I described above.

[crowTrobot 2]

also ur other problem is that you have trouble in with the concept of time...u struggle with how to view time and it hurts the conversation.

talking to yourself?

yes the future is in the future but at t+x something is going to happen in that moment is going to happen. now if i make the claim that God it outside of time...the i can say he can go to that period and see what u do...its the same concept as if u watch a dvd...you can fast forward to see who the killer is and then rewind back some scene before then...it still doesnt change the fact that at t+x the killer is going to be revealed. So now u are able to watch the movie and see what events lead up to that revealing. Its no different except that God has seen the entire dvd that is life.

it is not that simple.events on a dvd are FIXED- as you say yourself they are predetermined by prior cause/effect. people on the dvd are not free to make different choices at the point on the dvd where those choices occur. they only have the *illusion* they are free.if events can be viewed as unchanging (from any perspective) they MUST be fixed and predetermined and there is no free will. if there IS free will the "future" must be seen as *branching* both from within time and from without. the dvd would seem to have multiple endings.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Anyway as I was saying we are stuck firmly 'within time' so if God wants to interact with us like, I dunno, creating us or watching over us, he has to play by the same rules we do.

see this where it gets over your head...miracles by definition go against the stated rules thats why they are miracles

Now I know you will attempt to claim this as nonsense or worthless

apparently you can read my thoughts now? Your example is retardedly dumb...do you even think about what ur saying before you type it. First yes if God is within our time measurement (b/c thats all we do is measure it with abritrary numbers) then yes He is subject to the laws of nature here...see Jesus for how God acts inside our realm. Notice that when Jesus was on this earth He took on every aspect of being human. He still had divine abilities but He was subjected to these laws...so no flying around like morpheussecond your example like i said is retarded. If God forced u to choose the wrong thing then ur correct free will is not happening. But as stated over and over...free will posits the ability to be there with or without a divine being. The definition merely says it exists if you are not being controlled by a divine creature....so lets use ur example to see exactly what would happen when u stop thinkin stupidlyIll use u in the example since its ur example.You have to glass boxes with a ball...before hiding u time travel to the future to see that i pick the left one. Now u thinkin how smart u are go back and put the ball under the right box. I walk up and pick the right box of course and u think that i have been proven wrong. Now heres where ur example falls flat. What you have done is changed a step leading up to T+x which is the time i pick the box. So if you had tucked the ball under the right box and then checked the future u see that o wait now i pick the right box. Do you see it yet. There are multiple outcomes that can be seen and understood...But I still make a choice at T+x. All you have done is changed a step leading to that moment. Now if u rewind the dvd to present u can watch the steps that lead up to me picking the right box. It still doesnt change the fact that now I will pick the right box But since God rarely intervenes (remember the bible covers around 6000 years of history) that means that the dvd is just playing. That means He can fast forward and rewind the dvd to see whats going on and that will be as so. And crow of course it is a basic understanding but all i can do is lay the ground work for now. Until yall can grasp it I cant say much more

[solderz 0]

Your example is retardedly dumb...do you even think about what ur saying before you type it.

lollollolLOL

[crowTrobot 2]

First yes if God is within our time measurement (b/c thats all we do is measure it with abritrary numbers) then yes He is subject to the laws of nature here...see Jesus for how God acts inside our realm. Notice that when Jesus was on this earth He took on every aspect of being human. He still had divine abilities but He was subjected to these laws...so no flying around like morpheus

so flying is subject to the laws of nature but creating loaves/fishes out of nothing, raising the dead etc. aren't? speaking of retarded.

You have to glass boxes with a ball...before hiding u time travel to the future to see that i pick the left one. Now u thinkin how smart u are go back and put the ball under the right box. I walk up and pick the right box of course and u think that i have been proven wrong. Now heres where ur example falls flat. What you have done is changed a step leading up to T+x which is the time i pick the box. So if you had tucked the ball under the right box and then checked the future u see that o wait now i pick the right box. Do you see it yet.

i see you just agreed that for free will to exist the future must be branching and unpredictable.

[Canada 0]

You have to glass boxes with a ball...before hiding u time travel to the future to see that i pick the left one. Now u thinkin how smart u are go back and put the ball under the right box. I walk up and pick the right box of course and u think that i have been proven wrong. Now heres where ur example falls flat. What you have done is changed a step leading up to T+x which is the time i pick the box. So if you had tucked the ball under the right box and then checked the future u see that o wait now i pick the right box. Do you see it yet. There are multiple outcomes that can be seen and understood...But I still make a choice at T+x. All you have done is changed a step leading to that moment.

So what you are saying is of the possible futures the one that will happen can't be seen until you make your decision?Ie The future is indeterminate as long as free will exists.Exactly. Thank you for your agreement.Or the extension in the other direction...

i see you just agreed that for free will to exist the future must be branching and unpredictable.

Oh noooooooos, its happening agaaaaaain!!!!

You start tossin out logic ... to throw people off.

[zzz 0]

so flying is subject to the laws of nature but creating loaves/fishes out of nothing, raising the dead etc. aren't? speaking of retarded.i see you just agreed that for free will to exist the future must be branching and unpredictable.

I think you understand what Matt is saying. His belief is that God is all knowing and his children have free will. Certaintly not hard to comprehend. Have a nice day!

So what you are saying is of the possible futures the one that will happen can't be seen until you make your decision?Ie The future is indeterminate as long as free will exists.

He believes a God looking in from a timeless dimension can see all that happened and all that is going to happen because his God is all knowing. What part of this is difficult to understand? Have a nice day!