a case for christ

[jmkiser 0]

THE CASE AGAINST THE CASE FOR CHRIST

[HollywoodAFD 0]

Lois what do you think about the criticism that whether or not one gets into heaven is based on geography - as in whether or not one was given the oppurtunity to be taught the gospel and Christianity? I don't know where you stand on what happens if someone never got a chance to believe, but I'm having a problem with the fact that most Christians tend to become such because of the environment they were raised in, either because of the characteristics it instilled upon them or because of its Christian impact (at least from what I can tell in my little amount of experience).

"but I'm having a problem with the fact that most Christians tend to become such because of the environment they were raised in" --- Having a problem with it? i dont understand

[savagerebel 0]

Got the book today. Thanks DN.

[Vick07 0]

"but I'm having a problem with the fact that most Christians tend to become such because of the environment they were raised in" --- Having a problem with it? i dont understand

I'm struggling with the concept, the ideal is a cause of doubt of Christianity, It is a cause of reflection upon my own life and others that maybe (well, most definitely) we would not believe the way we do if we had grown up in a household with different beliefs. Understand?

[HollywoodAFD 0]

I'm struggling with the concept, the ideal is a cause of doubt of Christianity, It is a cause of reflection upon my own life and others that maybe (well, most definitely) we would not believe the way we do if we had grown up in a household with different beliefs. Understand?

First off... Go COWBOYS ! Was at the new stadium yesterday....it's so friggin awesome...or will be.Second... I sort of see what you are saying. I made the rounds though... Raised in a southern Baptist home where dad, uncle and granddad were all ministers. I then ran to the catholic church shortly after high school. In college I studied world religion and began to practice Tao Buddhism. Years later... became a practicing witch in the Wicca. Now... back to Christianity.I think I left Christianity because I had doubts. Those doubts are gone.But I do believe you are correct in that the majority of us believe how we believe becuase of the household we were raised in. To an extent.

[HollywoodAFD 0]

Got the book today. Thanks DN.

It's an easy read, bro.Very good book... after you finish... your thoughts?

[Vick07 0]

Raised in a southern Baptist home. Now... back to Christianity.

FYPGet it?

[HollywoodAFD 0]

FYPGet it?

Ummm.. did you read the entire post?Get it?

[Vick07 0]

Did you come back to Christianity because you remembered it, or because you were reintroduced to it? If you remembered it and came back to it on your own then the same thing applies

[copernicus 0]

A Case for Christ?I heard hes a lightweight, a 6 pack should be plenty. Of course if he could transubstantiate Coors into a beer with flavor I might become a believer!

[xvsptrp 0]

Daniel,I'm a Christian. I also hardly ever make any comments and just usually read the post in this forum. However I think you need to re-think some key issues.Would Jesus make a case for Roe v. WadeDo you feel your politcal beliefs interfere with your religion. I understand your need for CHANGE however not compromise when it come's to abortion. (DEM v. REP)I pray that other people realize that there is a right to life.IF there is a God, then there (he) make's no mistake's. If he gives life, we should not take that life away under any circumstance.For this reason there is no case for Obama. Not that McCain is better but there can be no case for (CHOICE) but (LIFE)AndrewYour neighbor in Summerlin.PS I saw you a few weeks ago golfing, that swing needs lots of work...Still a fan...buttttttttttttttttttttttttttt........

[timwakefield 68]

If he gives life, we should not take that life away under any circumstance.

Are you also strongly opposed to the death penalty and war of any kind?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Are you also strongly opposed to the death penalty and war of any kind?

I think a more pertinent question is is he against Tumor removal of any kind.

[Buckwheat 0]

Are you also strongly opposed to the death penalty and war of any kind?

Very good querstion

I think a more pertinent question is is he against Tumor removal of any kind.

You think wrong

[crowTrobot 2]

Would Jesus make a case for Roe v. Wade

i think his preference would probably be to just walk on the water

[The Walrus 0]

"IF there is a God, then there (he) make's no mistake's. If he gives life, we should not take that life away under any circumstance."I don't entirely agree with your way of thinking there. God might have created life in it's earliest form ( one cell creatures ) but that doesn't mean he has anything to do with life in it's current form, evolution is pretty much a fact these days , though that doesn't rule out the existence of a god..but it does mean that mankind evolved from little one cell creatures to what we are today , and the question is what was the hand of god in all of that , if there was even a hand of god in the process ? Directly linked to your remark it means that god probably has nothing to do with life as it exists today , so can't be taken up as a reason for making decisions whether or not to take that life away. I do think that it's our moral obligation to protect life , i'm also against abortion because i think there are plenthy of alternatives if you think you can't handle the responsibility of raising a child ( such as adoption ).

[kozz 0]

I'm sorry to break it to the true believers here, but I'm afraid it's all just a nice little fairy tale. Come on you're adults. Nothing but ice cream and candy canes forever if you're a good little boy or girl, or an eternity of the most horrible torture imaginable if you don't follow along. It really couldn't be more obvious could it? The destruction of reason is started in childhood, but as an adult, the threat of the loss of the love of your god, your family and your friends if you were to become the unthinkable, AN INFIDEL, seals the deal. But hey believe what you want, just don't expect people to take your simplistic views on life and death seriously. unfortunately a magical little soul is not created when a sperm enters an egg cell, making the issue of abortion and stem cell research a whole lot more complicated, and serious people need to take into consideration the practical rights of mothers and the benefits to millions of desperately ill people. We have people in power who believe the rapture will occur within their lifetimes, and look at some of the negative events happening in the world with glee, hoping they might be one step closer to meeting jesus. Humanity needs to outgrow these primitive and divisive iron age belief systems that so much energy is wasted on, and maybe one day we could see where our true potential lies.

[HollywoodAFD 0]

I'm sorry to break it to the true believers here, but I'm afraid it's all just a nice little fairy tale. Come on you're adults. Nothing but ice cream and candy canes forever if you're a good little boy or girl, or an eternity of the most horrible torture imaginable if you don't follow along. It really couldn't be more obvious could it? The destruction of reason is started in childhood, but as an adult, the threat of the loss of the love of your god, your family and your friends if you were to become the unthinkable, AN INFIDEL, seals the deal. But hey believe what you want, just don't expect people to take your simplistic views on life and death seriously. unfortunately a magical little soul is not created when a sperm enters an egg cell, making the issue of abortion and stem cell research a whole lot more complicated, and serious people need to take into consideration the practical rights of mothers and the benefits to millions of desperately ill people. We have people in power who believe the rapture will occur within their lifetimes, and look at some of the negative events happening in the world with glee, hoping they might be one step closer to meeting jesus. Humanity needs to outgrow these primitive and divisive iron age belief systems that so much energy is wasted on, and maybe one day we could see where our true potential lies.

Well..... even though that was a well thought out and researched statement that I'm sure will get over a billion followers.... I don't think you convinced any believers to stop believing.Just a question....before you posted this insightful thought, did you even read the book?"Humanity needs to outgrow these primitive and divisive iron age belief systems that so much energy is wasted on, and maybe one day we could see where our true potential lies." <-- I agree. Are you doing anything other than posting in a poker forum to assist in this? Calling your Congressman, Senator, Governor? I may be wrong but I think more would come of this by getting involved that way rather than 'wasting energy' by posting in a poker forum by telling believers that their religion is a nice little fairy tale.

[kozz 0]

I'm not really sure why you would think I wanted people to follow me, or even that the goal was to stop people from believing. I'm simply posting the truth as I have come to be able to see it, and if it might help even one person shed the repressive and simplistic humanity destroying delusion of religion then fine, but I've lived among you for far too long to expect it. I'm well aware I will die long before there is significant change in a positive direction, and that in fact, there is a much greater chance that I could witness the end of civilization due to these beliefs, than there is of seeing humanity overcome them. But unfortunately I brought children into this world long before I could fully comprehend how sick humanity really was, and if not for them, I probably wouldn't even try.I'm also not sure why you ask what I am actually doing about it, as if an opinion on it's own has no merit, unless the holder could also show he has been trying to convince others of it for x amount of time. (Must be why you think religion is truth). I also wonder why you don't ask this same question to every single posting you encounter? But of course, you don't have the answer to these questions yourself do you? Because after all isn't this the religious mind? Say meaningless things, and then attach great significance to them, all the while simply ignoring any contradictions along the way. Interesting that this mindset could explain the root of almost any of the current problems facing the world today isn't it?If you want to contribute something to the discussion on the subject, please feel free to respond to what I actually said in my initial post, and explain why the precepts of Christianity, or any religion, are anything more than the obvious and child like control mechanisms I have portrayed them to be. Try to do so without quoting scripture or telling me how many billions of people believe it, as I would hope that even you, would recognize their irrelevance. Also it would be helpful to not again divert the discussion with meaningless attacks on my credentials to hold such opinions, as this becomes rather circular and useless as well. (PM me for a link to my own web site on the subject as well to organizations which I support and that I use to keep involved, as irrelevant as it may be to the discussion at hand, rest assured I back up my words with actions)

[HollywoodAFD 0]

If you want to contribute something to the discussion on the subject, please feel free to respond to what I actually said in my initial post, and explain why the precepts of Christianity, or any religion, are anything more than the obvious and child like control mechanisms I have portrayed them to be. Try to do so without quoting scripture or telling me how many billions of people believe it, as I would hope that even you, would recognize their irrelevance. Also it would be helpful to not again divert the discussion with meaningless attacks on my credentials to hold such opinions, as this becomes rather circular and useless as well. (PM me for a link to my own web site on the subject as well to organizations which I support and that I use to keep involved, as irrelevant as it may be to the discussion at hand, rest assured I back up my words with actions)

OK...I will.I feel that I must point out that this is a thread about the book "A Case for Christ" and not a thread to debate whether religion is fact or not.However...I digress:"I'm sorry to break it to the true believers here, but I'm afraid it's all just a nice little fairy tale." Sorry to break it to true believers? This is a statement i don't understand.... because you don't believe...you 'hate to break it to' those who do believe...that their beliefs are fairy tales? Because you say so? Wow....that's deep."The destruction of reason is started in childhood, but as an adult, the threat of the loss of the love of your god, your family and your friends if you were to become the unthinkable, AN INFIDEL, seals the deal. But hey believe what you want, just don't expect people to take your simplistic views on life and death seriously."So we are allowed to believe what we want? Thanks. I'm not sure anyone in this thread asked you or anyone else to take anything seriously. Again...this is a thread about a book."unfortunately a magical little soul is not created when a sperm enters an egg cell, making the issue of abortion and stem cell research a whole lot more complicated, and serious people need to take into consideration the practical rights of mothers and the benefits to millions of desperately ill people." No idea how the discussion of this book became an issue with stem cell research and the rights of mothers.... I'm actually for stem cell research."We have people in power who believe the rapture will occur within their lifetimes, and look at some of the negative events happening in the world with glee, hoping they might be one step closer to meeting jesus." Just curious...who are you referring to here?Since you have only 3 posts...I actually think this is a regular who thought it was too quiet in here and just wanted to stir the pot...but I'm always game to play along. I'm a Christian and could care less if you are or not. (I also understand that is an area that I fall short in...but I never said I was perfect) Not all Christians feel that the non-believers don't have valid points. Maybe you answered it and i missed it... but did you even read the book that this thread is talking about? You may like it. It was written by an atheist.

[Sportsmack 0]

(Must be why you think religion is truth)

Far be it from me to get involved in a "religion thread." But i think most Christians believe that Christ is truth, not religion. I'm a Christian, and I would never say that religion is truth. Religion and The Church has done more harm to Christianity than good. We are usually our own worst enemy. It just sounds like most of the argument in this thread has to do with religion and not Christ, which is what the book "A case for CHRIST" is really about. It's not called "A case for religion," just saying.

[kozz 0]

Hollywood,There have been many posts in this thread not specifically about the book but somehow you just have a problem with mine, but I digress. No I haven't read this book, and don't intend to, The general consensus among historians is that a man called Jesus "probably" existed, but there is simply so little evidence of it, that we will likely never really know for sure. But whether there was or wasn't really matters very little as far as the validity of Christianity is concerned. There are currently about 6 million people who worship Sathya Sai Baba as the reinicarnation of a saint who performs miracles. Never mind that you tube is full of videos that catch him in the act of faking them. You think this would be hard to do 2000 years ago? And no Hollywood, saying Christianity is a sham is not very "deep" but do you know what is even shallower, Christianity itself,and that is what the intention of my initial message was intending to show. Really how much shallower could it be and still have people believe it. What's it gonna be Hollywood, candy canes and Ice cream or brutal torture for ever and ever and ever. Come on Hollywood, Is that what is deep in your book?As for the people in power who await the rapture, our previous president was such a person, and he surrounded himself with the same. Over 85% of the both houses of Congress are Christians of one sort or another, so I guess you could almost take your pick. Sure some are more grounded than others, but certainly they all dream of that most wonderful of days when the world comes to an end and they get to go meet their savior.Sports,What you are saying is a common sentiment these days, especially in the Christian community, but the problem is there is no religion without the church. They invented the thing, and they get to say what it means. For you to say well the church has it all wrong and I know what Jesus was "really" all about, is a lot like having the writer of a book explain the plot to you, and after he's done, you telling him he doesn't know what he's talking about. It simply can't be done. There would be no Christianity without the Christian church. But this has never stopped anyone from disagreeing and starting their own denomination. It's why today there are at least 35,000 different denominations of Christianity, each one claiming that they know the true mind of god. Doesn't it seem just a little odd that god obviously wanted us to get a message, but that he couldn't find any effective means of communicating it to us accurately. We really need to grow up. If most hadn't been force fed this tripe as children they would reject it out of hand as absolute nonsense, but when it forms the basis of our mental development, it becomes an incredibly difficult task to essentially chop off part of ourselves. And it's what the church counts on.

[HollywoodAFD 0]

Hollywood,There have been many posts in this thread not specifically about the book but somehow you just have a problem with mine, but I digress. I don't have a problem with your post at all.... just wasn't sure if you understood the general guidelines of an internet forum. Like if I went to a thread titled "How to make meatloaf" and began to rant about the price of coffee. Someone might point out that i was a bit off topic. No I haven't read this book, and don't intend to, The general consensus among historians is that a man called Jesus "probably" existed, but there is simply so little evidence of it, that we will likely never really know for sure. This statement false. So little evidence? You may not accept Jesus as the messiah but to doubt his existence is just ill-informed. But whether there was or wasn't really matters very little as far as the validity of Christianity is concerned. Makes no sense. The validity of Christianity matters exactly proportionate to His existence. Without the existence of Jesus...there could be no Christianity.There are currently about 6 million people who worship Sathya Sai Baba as the reinicarnation of a saint who performs miracles. Never mind that you tube is full of videos that catch him in the act of faking them. You think this would be hard to do 2000 years ago? Not sure where you are going here? Jesus was a magician? So he DID exist? And no Hollywood, saying Christianity is a sham is not very "deep" but do you know what is even shallower, Christianity itself,and that is what the intention of my initial message was intending to show. Really how much shallower could it be and still have people believe it. What's it gonna be Hollywood, candy canes and Ice cream or brutal torture for ever and ever and ever. Come on Hollywood, Is that what is deep in your book?Not at all You really should read the book. It has all the answers to what you are bringing up here. Seriously it does. Well.... if you believe what the atheist author is saying. He explains things in a scientific way. (sort of) Seriously...it's not a Christian trying to trick you into reading the Bible..... it's a good book.

Don't think I'm looking for an e-fight.... I dont do that. I just don't understand how some people hate that Christians try to spread the word but they feel the need to spread that they think our religion is false. We aren't attacking you for being a non-believer....why does it bother you that we do believe?

[Sportsmack 0]

Sports,What you are saying is a common sentiment these days, especially in the Christian community, but the problem is there is no religion without the church. They invented the thing, and they get to say what it means. For you to say well the church has it all wrong and I know what Jesus was "really" all about, is a lot like having the writer of a book explain the plot to you, and after he's done, you telling him he doesn't know what he's talking about. It simply can't be done. There would be no Christianity without the Christian church. But this has never stopped anyone from disagreeing and starting their own denomination. It's why today there are at least 35,000 different denominations of Christianity, each one claiming that they know the true mind of god. Doesn't it seem just a little odd that god obviously wanted us to get a message, but that he couldn't find any effective means of communicating it to us accurately. We really need to grow up. If most hadn't been force fed this tripe as children they would reject it out of hand as absolute nonsense, but when it forms the basis of our mental development, it becomes an incredibly difficult task to essentially chop off part of ourselves. And it's what the church counts on.

"but the problem is there is no religion without the church. They invented the thing, and they get to say what it means"Actually the church doesn't get to say anything. The church doesn't tell me what to believe, the Bible does, why doesn't that register with you? Christ commands us Christians to "Go and make disciples of all the nations." He didn't say "Go and erect large buildings with pews and call them churches." We ARE the church. The church as an organization (which is how most people see it) is flawed, because people are flawed. "There would be no Christianity without the Christian church?" Actually there would be no Christianity without Christ. And again, the book is called "A case for Christ," not "A case for the church" or even "A case for Christianity." "Doesn't it seem just a little odd that god obviously wanted us to get a message, but that he couldn't find any effective means of communicating it to us accurately."God chose humans to spread his message, and I'll say it again...Humans are flawed. Hence, you've got denomination after denomination sprouting up all over the place. But I can guarantee you that 99.999999999% of all Christian denominations believe that Jesus Christ died on the Cross for their sins, was buried, and rose again to give us hope of eternal life. Tell me one "message" or "cause" that has ever been "spread" or "told" to perfection, without any flaws whatsoever. You can't, because most causes and messages are spread by humans. We're not robots, or Christ for that matter.

[kozz 0]

Hollywood said:"I just don't understand how some people hate that Christians try to spread the word but they feel the need to spread that they think our religion is false. We aren't attacking you for being a non-believer....why does it bother you that we do believe?"You can't be serious? Christianity is shoved down people's throats in this USA. You might not even feel safe in some of the red states. It is Christianity and Islam's claim to fame that they found a god that was as jealous as a teen age boy. There is only one god and everyone must believe in him or they are only fit for death. This brought down the Roman Empire and brought on 1,000 years of misery for Europe called the dark ages. During this time the church was in complete control. Only in the 1700s did people start to figure out that this was not a good situation, and that perhaps man should quit focusing exclusively on god and jesus and try thinking for himself again. Since then the progress for humanity has been staggering, and it is on this enlightenment philosophy that the US was founded. Most of the best known founding fathers knew the problems Christianity could bring to a civilization and they absolutely despised it, prompting this quote from Thomas Jefferson. "Christianity is the most perverted system to have ever shone on man". But this didn't stop Christianity from getting it's hooks into our government, and eventually getting in god we trust put on our money and adding under god to our pledge of allegiance in the 50s. Christianity now has it's hooks all over our government. Do Atheists have a single representative in the government. No because people vote their religion first and issues second and no atheist has a chance to obtain office even though the non religious make up over 16% of the population. It's a sick sick country. But yeah you are sick of people attacking Christianity. How out of touch with reality can one person be?Sports,Do you not understand that the new testament is the hand picked word of the early christian church. It is composed of books that were written by authors who did not even know Jesus but who had an interest in promoting the growth of the early church. There were many other books that were considered for inclusion with exactly the same authenticity, which was none, but they were rejected because they gave a different image to Jesus than what the church wanted to portray. Do you also not understand that before these books about Jesus there were many others about different prophets that had many similarities with Jesus. Horus for instance from the Egyptian book of the dead. He was the son of the god osiris, born of a virgin mother, baptized in a river by anup the baptizer who was later beheaded. He was tempted alone in the desert, healed the sick and the blind, cast out demons and walked on water. He was raised asar from the dead. Asar translates to lazarus. He had 12 disciple, and he was crucified and resurrected. This is just one example of many of the stories that predate jesus. But somehow you know what to believe because the bible tells you so. Wow. They are ancient stories among thousands that have obvious even more ancient roots. In fact you can trace the resurrection story almost all the way back to prehistory and the the rising and setting of the star sirius. You worship ancient nonsense, and you know nothing of the truth of it except what a few men, interested in establishing a new church, wanted you to read. And now you worship it as if it is the source of all knowledge. Very sad.