Too Early, Too Little?

[Mercury69 3]

Final two tables of a rather large and crazy rebuy on Stars. Blinds are 15K/30K, antes 1500. I'm have around 300K, giving me an M of 5.I get 55 UTG. BB is table chip leader, with 1.2mil. I raise to 90K, which has been the standard steal/raise and 90% of these moves are working for the person making the move. All fold around to BB. BB raises all in. As BB had thought a while before re-raising, I figured him for high cards and was on a semi-resteal. I decide to call, as I would have been left with 210K and the blinds are about to be rammed down my throat. Sure enough, he has AQs (spades). Flop is 4-Q-4, no help on the turn or river and I'm done.My question: Could I have afforded to wait? If not, should I have raised all in, instead of just the standard raise? Also, whatever play I made, do you think the BB would have called anyway?Thanks!Edit: Here's some of the requested missing info>>> Average stack was probably around 500K+. I was SS at this table (most had 500-700K). At the time of the push, there were 7 players at the table, not full but not really short-handed either.

[Rocketwadster 0]

What was the average chip stack at that point? It definately matters here IMO, as there were probably many players remaining with M's much less than yours, acting after you, meaning that you were probably going to be committing way too many chips should a short-stack decide to push behind you, as the pot odds would probaly dictate a call. As it is, your raise is risking 30% of your chip stack, which is just silly with such a mediocre holding in that position (it wouldn't be considered mediocre if you were on the button, but I think you can see what I mean).Once you encountered resistance from a large stack, you needed to shut down. At BEST you were in a race situation, if not dominated. You really think your opponent would push you all-in with a pocket pair less than 5's? If it was a short stack, maybe, just maybe, you could call there, but definately not against a stack that can bust you.This should have been an easy laydown IMO (but I wouldn't have raised in in the first place), waiting for a much better spot to put your tournament at risk.

[tskillz187 0]

Is this a full table? Avg. chipstack is important. I think I'm folding PF and waiting for a better spot. I'm def not standard raising and then calling off all of my chips. I think it is either a push or fold, leaning toward fold and then starting to push with first in VIG after the blinds go through me.If the table is 6-7 handed I probably push, but if its full or close to full I'm folding and waiting for a better spot. As it was he probably would have called your push, but maybe not. You'll never know and because he got to dictate play I think his play is fine, calling off 25% of his stack with AQ would be a little tougher, but probably correct as well.

[shpaget 0]

From UTG at a full table (I think regardless of chipstack) I'd fold this most times to begin.If the table is especially passive I might limp (or if I'm at a table where utg limps are seen to be suspicious), where I might see a flop for cheap...but even then you have to hit your set and there's nothing to indicate you'll double up if you hit it, which is the only way that pays for itself.In your situation I likely fold, unless I'm tired or my wife's naked and telling me to get my *** in bed.

[Mercury69 3]

I partially agree with the limp/fold rationale, but the table was fairly passive at this time. Also, I was kind of tired. But I agree with Rocket most, I think. I should have just laid it down. Even if I don't manage to pick up the blinds on their way through me, I'd still have enough of a stack to hurt someone if they called my push with a better holding. Lesson learned? I hope so lol. Could have FT'd if I'd won the race or held off the push.

[throwemaway 0]

I think 55 utg is a bit too weak to be raising w/ in your low M situation..Now if you were in late pos., I wouldn't hate your raise..But i just think you can find a better spot, especially since your calling all your chips off after BB raised..How do you know he wasn't taking the extra time to decide if his 88 is good?

[Mercury69 3]

I think 55 utg is a bit too weak to be raising w/ in your low M situation..Now if you were in late pos., I wouldn't hate your raise..But i just think you can find a better spot, especially since your calling all your chips off after BB raised..How do you know he wasn't taking the extra time to decide if his 88 is good?

QFT <sigh>

[Actuary 3]

Push or Fold preflop.which one depends on the propensity of BB and others to make loose calls (sounds like they dont) and the other stack sizes, payouts...

[iggymcfly 0]

Dan Harrington says: Go all-in preflop!

[Rocketwadster 0]

Dan Harrington says:Go all-in preflop!

I doubt that!

[iggymcfly 0]

Have you read HOH volume 2? We're in the red zone. He advocates pushing J2 or better in this spot.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Have you read HOH volume 2? We're in the red zone. He advocates pushing J2 or better in this spot.

Yes, I have, and I'm about 1/3 of the way through Volume III.Not here he wouldn't. Yes, we may be in the red zone, but clearly so are a bunch of our opponents. We are in early position. We have a low pocket pair. Way too many players yet to act, some of which will certainly be almost as deperate if not more so than us here (we don't know the chip stacks...tsk tsk tsk). I'd be willing to wager a little something-something that Harrington would NOT push pre-flop here, IF I knew the chip stacks.

[Mercury69 3]

Edit: Here's some of the requested missing info>>> Average stack was probably around 500K+. I was SS at this table (most had 500-700K). At the time of the push, there were 7 players at the table, not full but not really short-handed either.Blinds total 57K at this point (or thereabouts). 15K/30K, Antes 1500

[iggymcfly 0]

Aw, now I'm going to have to get the book out. From the chapter "Red Zone Strategy in Action", discussing the factors in playing hands with a low chip stack:"Notice the question I haven't asked: What is my position. With a low M, you're position doesn't matter much any more. The reason is that the worse your position (i.e. you're first or second to act), the closer you are to the blinds, which will chop away a huge percentage of your stack. Paradoxically, when your position is bad, you're under even more pressure to be the first player in the pot and grab your first-player vigorish."Also, if you're looking for an exact hand in that chapter, he advocates pushing 87o from second position with an M of 3 and with only 2 of the 8 players at the table having Ms over 5.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Edit: Here's some of the requested missing info>>> Average stack was probably around 500K+. I was SS at this table (most had 500-700K). At the time of the push, there were 7 players at the table, not full but not really short-handed either.Blinds total 57K at this point (or thereabouts). 15K/30K, Antes 1500

Wow, what a totally different picture this is from what I was thinking earlier. See how important this info is to the answers???

[iggymcfly 0]

It makes it an even more obvious push, but even 9 or 10 handed, I'm pretty sure that would be the play here. A pocket pair's just too big to lay down with first-in vigorish when we have an M of 5.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Aw, now I'm going to have to get the book out. From the chapter "Red Zone Strategy in Action", discussing the factors in playing hands with a low chip stack:"Notice the question I haven't asked: What is my position. With a low M, you're position doesn't matter much any more. The reason is that the worse your position (i.e. you're first or second to act), the closer you are to the blinds, which will chop away a huge percentage of your stack. Paradoxically, when your position is bad, you're under even more pressure to be the first player in the pot and grab your first-player vigorish."Also, if you're looking for an exact hand in that chapter, he advocates pushing 87o from second position with an M of 3 and with only 2 of the 8 players at the table having Ms over 5.

Our M is 5 according to the original post. I didnt check the math to verify. Huge difference between 5 and 3 here.However, now that we have been provided the information that I indicated was essential from the git-go, I like a push much more than I did previously...

[Actuary 3]

just don't raise to 90 ever again:P

[Mercury69 3]

Heh...thanks, guys.