Is Baptism Necessary For Salvation

[Mattnxtc 0]

Alrighty...No one clearly means no one, BUTAs I have said before....You are taking the quote out of context.Jesus is speaking to Thomas about how he and the rest of the disciples will find their way to "[Jesus'] Father's house."For simplicity let's reprint the whole thing.Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house, there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you myself, so that where I am, there may you be also. And you know the way to the place where I am going.Thomas said to him, "Lord we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth , and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him."So...Several elements make this verse subject to many different interpretations.#1) Thomas, when he says: "How can -we- know the way?" is referring to himself and the rest of the disciples. Jesus' responds that "no one" (none of the disciplies) "comes to the Father except through me." While that is not the plain-face reading of the sentence, by itself. If you put Thomas and Jesus in a room together talking about how the disciples will find him, that is the most obvious meaning of the sentence.#2) Nothing in the entire verse says anything about people finding the way to God through Jesus in their lifetimes on this Earth. There is nothing that prevents Jesus from saving people after they have died. There is nothing that prevents Jesus from saving people before they are born.#3) It is arguable that people could come to the Father directly. Jesus does -not- rule this out when he says "If you know me, you will know my Father also." This is a conditional statement.If you know Jesus ---> Know Father.The contrapositive (when that statement is not true) is:If you don't know Father ----> You don't know JesusTherefore, knowing Jesus is not a pre-condition to knowing the Father.But but but! "No one comes to the Father except through me."Well sure, but the Father can certainly bring someone through Jesus without anybody else's action. In fact the Father can bring someone through Jesus without the one being brought through even knowing who Jesus is.Your missionary efforts are admirable, and I see nothing wrong with them. But I believe that it is clear that there are manifold paths to God, and that God is the ultimate arbiter of all things. I am not beholden to 2000 years of dogma, theology, tradition and practice. I am beholden to God, and God is in my heart, and what I believe I will speak up for.Monty

John 3:16 " For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whoever shall believe in Him will not perish but have eternal life"where is the leeway here? John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." No leeway in this verse either is there? Also your interpretation of John 14 is not correct. The translation for "dwelling places" could literally be mansion. The point Jesus was makin is that there was enough room for all believers. That nobody would be left outside for believing. It makes no sense for Jesus to say, "all are welcome" and then 4 verses later saying"but only those who believe in Me are welcome"

#2) Nothing in the entire verse says anything about people finding the way to God through Jesus in their lifetimes on this Earth. There is nothing that prevents Jesus from saving people after they have died. There is nothing that prevents Jesus from saving people before they are born.

This is one of the more unbiblical statements youve made in a while. We know that we face judgement when we die, We know that we dont go to any "waiting area" We know that the only way to salvation is through belief. So this is just another unbiblical unsupported statement by you. If you think Jesus saves you after you die please share the verses, If you believe Jesus is going to let you sin your entire life and then forgive you just for the heck of it, please supply a verse. B/c you know that no verses support this other than you makin things up

[FullMontyM1 0]

John 3:16 " For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whoever shall believe in Him will not perish but have eternal life"where is the leeway here? John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." No leeway in this verse either is there?

A) "Whoever shall believe in Him will not perish but have eternal life" -- This statement is completely irrelevant regarding people who do not believe in Jesus, it only regards people who believe in Jesus. Therefore, the leeway is great, as it is not regarding the group of people we are talking about.B ) "He who believes in the Son has eternal life" -- this is again a guarantee to people who believe in the Son, and is not relevant to people who do not believe in the Son.C) "He who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" -- This is portion is only relevant to those people who have been brought news of Jesus and ignored it. This is not relevant to people who have never heard of Jesus. To obey or disobey someone, you must know them.Therefore, we have all the "leeway" we want, because none of your "authoritative" Bible verses have anything to do with what we are talking about.

Also your interpretation of John 14 is not correct. The translation for "dwelling places" could literally be mansion. The point Jesus was makin is that there was enough room for all believers. That nobody would be left outside for believing. It makes no sense for Jesus to say, "all are welcome" and then 4 verses later saying"but only those who believe in Me are welcome"

First off, he does not say "but only those who believe in me are welcome, he saus "only through him" will you find a way to the Father's house.Perhaps you know the will of God, I do not. I find "through him" to be a phrase subject to literally countless interpretations. Can Jesus or God not manifest themselves in different ways? In different forms? In different languages? In different cultures might they not manifest themselves in a way that is more readily understood to the people than as the messiah, a term known only to a limited portion of the world?

This is one of the more unbiblical statements youve made in a while. We know that we face judgement when we die, We know that we dont go to any "waiting area" We know that the only way to salvation is through belief. So this is just another unbiblical unsupported statement by you. If you think Jesus saves you after you die please share the verses, If you believe Jesus is going to let you sin your entire life and then forgive you just for the heck of it, please supply a verse. B/c you know that no verses support this other than you makin things up

I never said anything about a waiting area. You, sir, are making things up, or assuming or implying things in my statements which -are- not there.What I am saying is that we cannot presume to know the ways of God and that all things are possible through Him, and that he can save anyone he damn well pleases, whether you like it or not.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

A) "Whoever shall believe in Him will not perish but have eternal life" -- This statement is completely irrelevant regarding people who do not believe in Jesus, it only regards people who believe in Jesus. Therefore, the leeway is great, as it is not regarding the group of people we are talking about.B ) "He who believes in the Son has eternal life" -- this is again a guarantee to people who believe in the Son, and is not relevant to people who do not believe in the Son.C) "He who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" -- This is portion is only relevant to those people who have been brought news of Jesus and ignored it. This is not relevant to people who have never heard of Jesus. To obey or disobey someone, you must know them.Therefore, we have all the "leeway" we want, because none of your "authoritative" Bible verses have anything to do with what we are talking about.

do you seriously believe this? Lets see if you do not believe you do not get the eternal life. What do you get? death!!!! its not complicatedThis is the most ridiculous statement ive heard in a while.

First off, he does not say "but only those who believe in me are welcome, he saus "only through him" will you find a way to the Father's house.Perhaps you know the will of God, I do not. I find "through him" to be a phrase subject to literally countless interpretations. Can Jesus or God not manifest themselves in different ways? In different forms? In different languages? In different cultures might they not manifest themselves in a way that is more readily understood to the people than as the messiah, a term known only to a limited portion of the world?

How can somebody who doesnt believe in Jesus know Him? your reasoning is very flawed.

I never said anything about a waiting area. You, sir, are making things up, or assuming or implying things in my statements which -are- not there.What I am saying is that we cannot presume to know the ways of God and that all things are possible through Him, and that he can save anyone he damn well pleases, whether you like it or not.

No but you try to justify the fact that after we die we could still be saved. So where are we waiting? You have no biblical justification for anything you say

[FullMontyM1 0]

I have nothing to add except one question...Are you completely unfamiliar with logical constructions?If so that is a big part of the problem you are having with interpreting the Bible.These are conditionals:Positive: If A Then BContrapositive: If -B Then -APositive: If A Then -BContrapositive: If B Then -AEtc.These are essential to parsing the meaning of the phrases in the Bible. Writing 2000 years ago was much more oriented towards logical construction than it is now.The statement that "A believer is saved"Does NOT, does absolute NOT mean that "A non-believer is NOT saved"It DOES mean that "If you are not saved you are NOT a believer"But that statement makes no conclusion regarding whether a NON-believer or "NOT a believer" can still be saved.It just doesn't mean that.It doesn't mean that in Aramaic, it doesn't mean that in Greek, it doesn't mean that in Latin, it doesn't mean that in English.It just plain doesn't.Don't you think the Bible says exactly what God wanted it to say?Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

I have nothing to add except one question...Are you completely unfamiliar with logical constructions?If so that is a big part of the problem you are having with interpreting the Bible.These are conditionals:Positive: If A Then BContrapositive: If -B Then -APositive: If A Then -BContrapositive: If B Then -AEtc.These are essential to parsing the meaning of the phrases in the Bible. Writing 2000 years ago was much more oriented towards logical construction than it is now.The statement that "A believer is saved"Does NOT, does absolute NOT mean that "A non-believer is NOT saved"It DOES mean that "If you are not saved you are NOT a believer"But that statement makes no conclusion regarding whether a NON-believer or "NOT a believer" can still be saved.It just doesn't mean that.It doesn't mean that in Aramaic, it doesn't mean that in Greek, it doesn't mean that in Latin, it doesn't mean that in English.It just plain doesn't.Don't you think the Bible says exactly what God wanted it to say?Monty

this is wonder..I am glad you have learned logic..now show me a single verse where it says that a nonbeliever can be saved? Just one verse. It shoudl be easy if this is a biblical truth. So just provide a single verse that says they will not be sent to hell ?further i would like to add:Deuteronomy 4:29 "But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul. 1Chronicles 28:9 "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever. Proverbs 8:17 "I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me. Jeremiah 29:13 'You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. Matthew 7:8 "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. No more excuses. I just listed 5 times where God specifically says if you seek Him, you will find Him. If those do not seek them then what is their excuse? The works of God are all around us. No excuses for them, no excuses for you

[FullMontyM1 0]

I'll help you with a logical analysis of these Bible verses as well, if you want. Deuteronomy 4:29 "But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul. A positive statement regarding "those who seek God." This statement says that if you seek God you will find God. This statement OBVIOUSLY has absolutely nothing to do with people who "don't seek God." 1Chronicles 28:9 "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever. This statement says two things:#1) If you seek God, God will let you find God.#2) If you FORSAKE God, God will reject you forever.What does it mean to forsake?Forsake: To give up (something formerly held dear); renounce:Therefore, #2) regards people that have sought God, found him and then given him up or renounced him. It has nothing to do with people that a) have not sought God, or b ) never had the opportunity to seek God.Proverbs 8:17 "I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me.Again, this statement says God loves those who love God, and those who seek God will find God. This statement makes NO COMMENT WHATSOEVER on people who a) do not love God or b ) do not seek God. This statement has nothing to do with the later groups.Jeremiah 29:13 'You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.Again, more of the same. If you seek --> You find. This has nothing to do with people that don't seek.Logically constructed:If you seek --> You FindIf you don't find --> You don't seekAll this means is that if you seek you will find, and if you don't find, then you didn't seek. It doesn't imply that you can't find without seeking. It makes no comment on people who do not seek, it only governs "those who seek" and "those who do not find."Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.Matthew 7:8 "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Both of these, more of the same. It should be clear now.

No more excuses. I just listed 5 times where God specifically says if you seek Him, you will find Him. If those do not seek them then what is their excuse? The works of God are all around us. No excuses for them, no excuses for you.

Yes, you listed verses that say if you seek you will find him. That's what the verses say. They don't say: "NO EXCUSES IF YOU DON'T SEEK! NO EXCUSES FOR THEM! NO EXCUSES FOR YOU!"Those are YOUR additions to the Bible, Matt. -You- are the one altering the Bible to suit your beliefs.

this is wonder..I am glad you have learned logic..now show me a single verse where it says that a nonbeliever can be saved? Just one verse. It shoudl be easy if this is a biblical truth. So just provide a single verse that says they will not be sent to hell ?

That's the thing Matt, I don't have to prove that something will not happen. You have to prove that it will, and you can't. You can prove that believers will be saved. You can prove that if you ask it will be given to you, if you seek you will find, if you knock, it will be opened to you. You can prove that "those who love" God, will be loved by God. NONE of the verses you have quoted say anything about what God intends for a) people who do not believe when they have been given an opportunity to believe, and b ) people who have not been given an opportunity to believe. Your verses just don't have anything to do with these situations. If you cannot see this, then you need to purchase a book on basic logic and read that book.You CANNOT prove NOR point to a single Bible verse that says "those who DO NOT love God will be hated by God." Why can't you do this? Because this Bible verse does not exist, at least not in the New Testament. We have a commandment that says "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." Obviously a command to worship God. But this command says nothing about God being REQUIRED to condemn anyone that does not worship God.You, Matt, are ignoring basic logic and grammar, and substituting YOUR WILL for God's Will. Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

NONE of the verses you have quoted say anything about what God intends for a) people who do not believe when they have been given an opportunity to believe, and b ) people who have not been given an opportunity to believe. Your verses just don't have anything to do with these situations. If you cannot see this, then you need to purchase a book on basic logic and read that book.

This what I love about people like you. Yall come in and say well the bible doesnt say this and that. So what does the bible say"Only The righteous will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9) (Galatians (5:21)"All men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)So using your logic (which you conviently forget to use what can we conclude)righteous ----> inherit kingdom of Godunrighteous ----> arent in kingdom of Godhow do you become righteous? Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. So by believing in Jesus you receive righteousnessby receiving righteousness you receive the kingdom of Goda-->bb-->cvery simple logical statement So now what can we conclude about nonbelievers~a means they dont believe in Jesuswithout believing in Jesus they cant be righteouswithout being righteous you cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Do we need to get a logic professor in to explain this to you? You try to dance around logical proof but its fine. You are wrong and its easy enough to see. If you care so much for these people then go out and warn them. But they see the proof everyday. If they choose not to question it that is not God's fault.

[Farnan 0]

Grrr... forget it.

[FullMontyM1 0]

"Only The righteous will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9) (Galatians (5:21)righteous ----> inherit kingdom of Godunrighteous ----> arent in kingdom of Godhow do you become righteous? Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. So by believing in Jesus you receive righteousnessby receiving righteousness you receive the kingdom of Goda-->bb-->cvery simple logical statement So now what can we conclude about nonbelievers~a means they dont believe in Jesuswithout believing in Jesus they cant be righteouswithout being righteous you cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Do we need to get a logic professor in to explain this to you?

We need to get a logic professor to explain this to you. I am not a logics professor, I only taught logic while I trained people to take the LSAT, so, in lieu of a logics professor, I'll do my best.You've mucked up the logic again, Matt."Only The righteous will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9) (Galatians (5:21)DOES NOT =

righteous ----> inherit kingdom of Godunrighteous ----> arent in kingdom of God

DOES =IF[inherit kingdom of God] -----> THEN [Righteous]IF[NOT Righteous] ------>THEN [Does NOT inherit kingdom of God]Let's put aside what exactly "inheriting the Kingdom of God" means. Obviously this is open to interpretation, but we don't need to go down that road.We can get to the most simple answer by agreeing that you must be RIGHTEOUS, in order to "Inherit the Kingdom of God."How do you become [Righteous]?I do not know. There are probably countless ways to become righteous. Some of them are probably listed in the Bible, and some are not.You quoted a few.

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. So by believing in Jesus you receive righteousnessby receiving righteousness you receive the kingdom of God

These two verses give us:IF[Confess and Believe] -----> THEN [Righteous]IF[believes with the heart] -----> THEN[Righteous]IF[believe in Jesus] ----> THEN[Rigtheous]Next we'll see if we can combine these logical statements with the one above regarding inheritting the kingdom of God, but first...Notice these logical constructions ARE NOT IF AND ONLY IF. They simply say "IF." That means that each of these logical pathways to Rigtheous is not exclusive.IF[Cat] ----> THEN [ANIMAL]IF[Dog]-----> THEN [ANIMAL]IF[Horse] ----> THEN[ANIMAL]Obviously, there are other conditionals that progress to ANIMAL, just as there are countless, potential conditionals that progress to RIGHTEOUS.Let's try to combine our conditionals now...IF[Confess and Believe] -----> THEN [Righteous]IF A THEN RIF[believes with the heart] -----> THEN[Righteous]IF B THEN RIF[believe in Jesus] ----> THEN[Rigtheous]IF C THEN RIF[inherit kingdom of God] -----> THEN [Righteous]IF D THEN RIF[NOT Righteous] ------>THEN [Does NOT inherit kingdom of God]IF NOT R THEN NOT DSo these combine as follows:IF A or B or C or D THEN RIF NOT R THEN NOT A or B or C or DIF[Confess and Believe] OR [believes with the heart] OR [believe in Jesus] OR [inherit kingdom of God] -----> THEN [RighteousThe contrapositive of this:IF[NOT Righteous] ------>THEN [Does NOT inherit kingdom of God] AND [Does NOT Confess and Believe] AND [Does NOT Believe with the heart] AND [Does NOT Believe in Jesus]So the verses you have quoted and the logic they produce, tells us two things:They tell us 4 categories of people that are Righteous. These categories are not exclusive.They tell us 4 categories people are NOT in if they are NOT Righteous.They do NOT tell us all of the categories people can be in that lead to being Righteous. You are falling into a common logical trap. The logical fallacy in your argument is understandable. Anyone who hasn't had some training in logic usually falls into it until someone helps them out.But what you are arguing is NOT supported by what you are quoting. It just plain isn't Matt.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

We need to get a logic professor to explain this to you. I am not a logics professor, I only taught logic while I trained people to take the LSAT, so, in lieu of a logics professor, I'll do my best.You've mucked up the logic again, Matt."Only The righteous will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9) (Galatians (5:21)DOES NOT = DOES =IF[inherit kingdom of God] -----> THEN [Righteous]IF[NOT Righteous] ------>THEN [Does NOT inherit kingdom of God]Let's put aside what exactly "inheriting the Kingdom of God" means. Obviously this is open to interpretation, but we don't need to go down that road.We can get to the most simple answer by agreeing that you must be RIGHTEOUS, in order to "Inherit the Kingdom of God."How do you become [Righteous]?I do not know. There are probably countless ways to become righteous. Some of them are probably listed in the Bible, and some are not.You quoted a few.These two verses give us:IF[Confess and Believe] -----> THEN [Righteous]IF[believes with the heart] -----> THEN[Righteous]IF[believe in Jesus] ----> THEN[Rigtheous]Next we'll see if we can combine these logical statements with the one above regarding inheritting the kingdom of God, but first...Notice these logical constructions ARE NOT IF AND ONLY IF. They simply say "IF." That means that each of these logical pathways to Rigtheous is not exclusive.IF[Cat] ----> THEN [ANIMAL]IF[Dog]-----> THEN [ANIMAL]IF[Horse] ----> THEN[ANIMAL]Obviously, there are other conditionals that progress to ANIMAL, just as there are countless, potential conditionals that progress to RIGHTEOUS.Let's try to combine our conditionals now...IF[Confess and Believe] -----> THEN [Righteous]IF A THEN RIF[believes with the heart] -----> THEN[Righteous]IF B THEN RIF[believe in Jesus] ----> THEN[Rigtheous]IF C THEN RIF[inherit kingdom of God] -----> THEN [Righteous]IF D THEN RIF[NOT Righteous] ------>THEN [Does NOT inherit kingdom of God]IF NOT R THEN NOT DSo these combine as follows:IF A or B or C or D THEN RIF NOT R THEN NOT A or B or C or DIF[Confess and Believe] OR [believes with the heart] OR [believe in Jesus] OR [inherit kingdom of God] -----> THEN [RighteousThe contrapositive of this:IF[NOT Righteous] ------>THEN [Does NOT inherit kingdom of God] AND [Does NOT Confess and Believe] AND [Does NOT Believe with the heart] AND [Does NOT Believe in Jesus]So the verses you have quoted and the logic they produce, tells us two things:They tell us 4 categories of people that are Righteous. These categories are not exclusive.They tell us 4 categories people are NOT in if they are NOT Righteous.They do NOT tell us all of the categories people can be in that lead to being Righteous. You are falling into a common logical trap. The logical fallacy in your argument is understandable. Anyone who hasn't had some training in logic usually falls into it until someone helps them out.But what you are arguing is NOT supported by what you are quoting. It just plain isn't Matt.Monty

im sorry but you need to actually learn logic....you CANNOT BREAK up 1 thought into 3 to try to make your point(A = If you believe in heart Jesus is Lord) --->(b = you are righteous)(B= if you are righteous) ----> (You inherit the kingdom of God)YOU CANNOT BREAK UP A THOUGHT INTO THREE THOUGHTS. IT IS VERY CLEAR. STOP TRYIN TO CHANGE THE GOSPEL MONTY YOU JUST MAKE YOUSELF LOOK STUPID

[Nikki_N 17]

I think it comes down to whether you believe that "what the Church on Earth holds, so it is held in heaven". If your Church says you need to get baptized, get baptized. If not, don't.

Plenary Indulgence? Dogma was a good movie.

Speaking as one who has been baptized... I see it a seal of the covenant that we hold with God. God has communicated his love for us in the sacraments of the Word, prayer, and baptism. In this act of baptism, God's love and grace is conveyed to us, as his children. It is a visible demonstration of the inward love and devotion that we have for God and a confirmation for the believer that God affirms his love for us. To me, baptism is an important decision in the Christian life, however it is not a necessary means to salvation. Baptism cannot be a means to salvation, because then we would be adding our own works to the already perfected work that Christ performed on the cross and according the Bible we cannot save ourselves:"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do " (Eph. 2:8,9).

That's good stuff right there. I am baptized. Do I think it's required? I don't know exactly, but I know it was the right thing for me to do.

[FullMontyM1 0]

im sorry but you need to actually learn logic....you CANNOT BREAK up 1 thought into 3 to try to make your point(A = If you believe in heart Jesus is Lord) --->(b = you are righteous)(B= if you are righteous) ----> (You inherit the kingdom of God)YOU CANNOT BREAK UP A THOUGHT INTO THREE THOUGHTS. IT IS VERY CLEAR. STOP TRYIN TO CHANGE THE GOSPEL MONTY YOU JUST MAKE YOUSELF LOOK STUPID

I don't know what you are talking or shouting about?!I took the verses -you- provided and broke them into their logical constiuents. If you can't follow this (and I thought I made it pretty clear), it is certainly not my fault.IF [You can't follow this] -----> THEN [it is NOT my fault]Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

I don't know what you are talking or shouting about?!I took the verses -you- provided and broke them into their logical constiuents. If you can't follow this (and I thought I made it pretty clear), it is certainly not my fault.IF [You can't follow this] -----> THEN [it is NOT my fault]Monty

No b/c you are tryin to break 1 concept into 3 b/c without it your theory falls apart. you are tryin to break up 9 & 10 to be in 3 different parts and they are not different. They are one in the same. Paul is merely saying this is the action you do. It is all centered on the belief that Jesus is Lord. Paul then goes on to explain why you would believe Jesus is Lord. So your silly little example with the 3 animals is nonsense. All 3 make up the subset of animal, but all 3 are valid without each other. You cannot acheive salvation without all 3 of these. If you want to break the verse up do it this way..dont make up thingsit should be (A&B)--->Cyou see? A&B isnt an either or...both are a must. So why you try to break them up you are making a huge huge mistake. If you want to get real technical it shoudl be just A--->C b/c a&b cannot stand alone and get you to Cso again its:If you believe in your heart Jesus is Lord ---->righteousIf you are righteous ---> inherit Gods kingdomYour problem is you cannot produce a logical statement that says anybody who does not believe in Jesus is saved. In fact there is only one other way to get into the kingdom of God. And that is to be righteous and I am positive nobody on this earth is righteous. Therefore you cannot procede from righteous ---> inherit the kingdom of Godsince only the righteous can inherit the kingdom of God you are going to have to produce a verse that says somebody who is not righteous nor a believer can get in and there are none of those available to you...what a shame

IF[Confess and Believe] -----> THEN [Righteous]IF[believes with the heart] -----> THEN[Righteous]IF[believe in Jesus] ----> THEN[Rigtheous]

This is not corret how you have it. You tried to break down believe into 3 options merely b/c you have to attempt something to make it fit...You redefine believe 3 times when in fact the 2nd and 3rd option are all the same as believe. Quit tryin to change the bible

[FullMontyM1 0]

No b/c you are tryin to break 1 concept into 3 b/c without it your theory falls apart.

Matt, you obviously can't follow the logic in my posts. Whether those concepts are OR or AND conditionals IT DOESN'T MATTER.Let's anaylyze the verses presuming that righteousness is dependent on all of these pre-conditions we have listed (even though that is not the plain reading of the verses quoted).IF[Confess and Believe] AND [believes with the heart] AND [believe in Jesus] OR IF[inherit kingdom of God] -----> THEN [Righteous]The contrapositive of this:IF[NOT Righteous] ------>THEN [Does NOT inherit kingdom of God] OR [Does NOT Confess and Believe] OR [Does NOT Believe with the heart] OR [Does NOT Believe in Jesus]That doesn't change anything regarding the categories of people that aren't included in these conditionals.This says that:#1) If you are not righteous, then you definetly ARE NOT certain things; and #2) If you definetly ARE certain things, then you definetly ARE rigtheous.This is no way establishes the ONLY pre-conditions for rigtheousness or the inheritting of the kingdom of God. These verses establish PRE-CONDITIONS that when met produce CONDITIONS. These verses do NOT establish that there are no other PRE-CONDITIONS that will also produce the CONDITIONS we are discussing.That's all it says Matt, if you cannot understand this, we cannot continue this discussion. A basic understanding of logical construction and grammar is necessary for any debate.

I am positive nobody on this earth is righteous.

Are you God? How are you positive of this?

since only the righteous can inherit the kingdom of God you are going to have to produce a verse that says somebody who is not righteous nor a believer can get in and there are none of those available to you...what a shame

No I do not have to produce any such thing. You have to produce a Bible verse that says the THE ONLY WAY TO BE RIGHTEOUS is to be Christian. You have failed to do so, and you will continue to fail to do so. Jesus' conversation with Thomas in John 14 is not sufficient to prove your point.Monty

[brvheart 1,752]

Are you God? How are you positive of this?

Because he believes something that you do not... that the Bible is the inerrant word of God.Romans 3:23... For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.Romans 6:23... For the wages of SIN is death, but the gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord.

[FullMontyM1 0]

Because he believes something that you do not... that the Bible is the inerrant word of God.Romans 3:23... For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.Romans 6:23... For the wages of SIN is death, but the gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord.

Believing the Bible and being positive of something only God has knowledge or control over are two completely different things.Could God make someone righteous right now?If you believe in God, the answer is obviously yes.If God made someone rigtheous right now, would you know it?Doubtful.If you can't say yes to the last question 100% of the time, then you can't be positive of your previous statement.Either you are claiming some level of omnipresence for yourself, or you are denying the omnipotence of God... which is it? I lean towards the former for you guys.Btw, you guys and your judgmental attitudes, I think you're going to find something very ironic when you get to the Gates of Heaven, as well.You're going to find Jesus there, and you're going to find a lot of people you didn't expect to be there. You're going to find that you were wrong sometimes, and that you used Jesus' name to denigrate others. It will be okay, because Jesus forgives. But you stating that I don't believe in the Bible is the height of judgmental hypocrisy. Mth 71 "Don't judge, so that you won't be judged.2 For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you.3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but don't consider the beam that is in your own eye?4 Or how will you tell your brother,'Let me remove the speck from your eye;' and behold, the beam is in your own eye?5 You hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye.And another version:1 "Stop judging, that you may not be judged. 2 For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. 3 Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove that splinter from your eye,' while the wooden beam is in your eye? 5 You hypocrite, 3 remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye. And a few other versions of the most-applicable and key verse:And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? (ASV)And why do you take note of the grain of dust in your brother's eye, but take no note of the bit of wood which is in your eye? (BBE)But why lookest thou on the mote that is in the eye of thy brother, but observest not the beam that is in thine eye? (DBY)And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? (KJV)And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thy own eye? (WBS)And why do you look at the splinter in your brother's eye, and not notice the beam which is in your own eye? (WEY)And why dost thou behold the mote that 'is' in thy brother's eye, and the beam that 'is' in thine own eye dost not consider? (YLT)τι δε βλεπεις το καρφος το εν τω οφθαλμω του αδελφου σου την δε εν τω σω οφθαλμω δοκον ου κατανοεις (Lexicon)τι δε βλεπεις το καρφος το εν τω οφθαλμω του αδελφου σου την δε εν τω σω οφθαλμω δοκον ου κατανοεις (Textus Receptus)τι δε βλεπεις το καρφος το εν τω οφθαλμω του αδελφου σου την δε εν τω σω οφθαλμω δοκον ου κατανοεις (westcott- hort)Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

Matt, you obviously can't follow the logic in my posts. Whether those concepts are OR or AND conditionals IT DOESN'T MATTER.Let's anaylyze the verses presuming that righteousness is dependent on all of these pre-conditions we have listed (even though that is not the plain reading of the verses quoted).IF[Confess and Believe] AND [believes with the heart] AND [believe in Jesus] OR IF[inherit kingdom of God] -----> THEN [Righteous]The contrapositive of this:IF[NOT Righteous] ------>THEN [Does NOT inherit kingdom of God] OR [Does NOT Confess and Believe] OR [Does NOT Believe with the heart] OR [Does NOT Believe in Jesus]That doesn't change anything regarding the categories of people that aren't included in these conditionals.This says that:#1) If you are not righteous, then you definetly ARE NOT certain things; and #2) If you definetly ARE certain things, then you definetly ARE rigtheous.This is no way establishes the ONLY pre-conditions for rigtheousness or the inheritting of the kingdom of God. These verses establish PRE-CONDITIONS that when met produce CONDITIONS. These verses do NOT establish that there are no other PRE-CONDITIONS that will also produce the CONDITIONS we are discussing.That's all it says Matt, if you cannot understand this, we cannot continue this discussion. A basic understanding of logical construction and grammar is necessary for any debate. Are you God? How are you positive of this?No I do not have to produce any such thing. You have to produce a Bible verse that says the THE ONLY WAY TO BE RIGHTEOUS is to be Christian. You have failed to do so, and you will continue to fail to do so. Jesus' conversation with Thomas in John 14 is not sufficient to prove your point.Monty

can i follow your logic? no b/c its in correct....if you go back to your "logic" you redefined believe 3 times!!!!!!!!!! do you not see that? If it was considered B you changed it 3 times!!!!!!!! thats not logic thats you tryin to make something of nothing. It said confess and believe...then you redefined believe twice which is just plain stupid. If you want to do it your way confess and believe in the first post means nothing. Why? b/c just believing in something doesnt save you. You must believe THAT JESUS IS LORD. therefore when you put believe there by itself it is pointless b/c you put an undefined variable. So your "logic" is pointless and every teacher you talk to would laugh at you for that. YOU CANNOT REDEFINE SOMETHING 3 TIMES AND TRY TO SAY ITS CORRECT... THATS JUST COMMON SENSE

Are you God? How are you positive of this?

Romans 3:23 "ALL MEN HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD"Thats how I know...nice try.

[FullMontyM1 0]

can i follow your logic? no b/c its in correct....if you go back to your "logic" you redefined believe 3 times!!!!!!!!!! do you not see that? If it was considered B you changed it 3 times!!!!!!!! thats not logic thats you tryin to make something of nothing. It said confess and believe...then you redefined believe twice which is just plain stupid. If you want to do it your way confess and believe in the first post means nothing. Why? b/c just believing in something doesnt save you. You must believe THAT JESUS IS LORD. therefore when you put believe there by itself it is pointless b/c you put an undefined variable. So your "logic" is pointless and every teacher you talk to would laugh at you for that. YOU CANNOT REDEFINE SOMETHING 3 TIMES AND TRY TO SAY ITS CORRECT... THATS JUST COMMON SENSE

I am not redefining anything Matt, I am using short-hand abbreviated phrases in the logical statements so that I don't have to retype the entire verses everytime I say:A ---> BI could start by saying verse A = "this" and substitute letters like that (A) and (B) for the verses, but there is no way you could follow it then if you are having trouble following it now.

Romans 3:23 "ALL MEN HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD"Thats how I know...nice try.

Is God all-powerful? If God is all-powerful then God is not bound to abide by a statement in the Bible. If God is not bound to abide by a statement in the Bible, then God can make that statement inaccurate whenever God wants. Unless you know everything that God has ever done, then you cannot know what you claim to know. If you can't see this, then I am done discussing things with you because you aren't even listening, you're just shouting "I'm right, I'm right, You're wrong, I'm right." And talking with someone doing that is, I am sorry, a waste of time.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

I am not redefining anything Matt, I am using short-hand abbreviated phrases in the logical statements so that I don't have to retype the entire verses everytime I say:A ---> BI could start by saying verse A = "this" and substitute letters like that (A) and (B) for the verses, but there is no way you could follow it then if you are having trouble following it now. Is God all-powerful? If God is all-powerful then God is not bound to abide by a statement in the Bible. If God is not bound to abide by a statement in the Bible, then God can make that statement inaccurate whenever God wants. Unless you know everything that God has ever done, then you cannot know what you claim to know. If you can't see this, then I am done discussing things with you because you aren't even listening, you're just shouting "I'm right, I'm right, You're wrong, I'm right." And talking with someone doing that is, I am sorry, a waste of time.Monty

Um..when you actually start using logic then we can talk...you of course have to define your variables you want to use...Your messed up "logic" isnt correct b/c you dont define belief, you dont define confess....I can confess and believe a lot of things but that doesnt make me righteous does it? No but you dont actually seem to think about what you writeYour second part is just stupid. Yes God is bound by His word!!!! Otherwise He would be a liar!!!!What would be the point of keepin His commandments if there was another way into heaven? your problem is you live in a world of ignorance. If somebody from a remote tribe comes to the US and murders somebody are we just going to let him go saying "he just didnt know our rules" Of course not. Your reasoning continues to fall apart. I also question your ability to even understand philosophy which I am going to be starting another post on in a sec

[Farnan 0]

Um..when you actually start using logic then we can talk...you of course have to define your variables you want to use...Your messed up "logic" isnt correct b/c you dont define belief, you dont define confess....I can confess and believe a lot of things but that doesnt make me righteous does it? No but you dont actually seem to think about what you writeYour second part is just stupid. Yes God is bound by His word!!!! Otherwise He would be a liar!!!!What would be the point of keepin His commandments if there was another way into heaven? your problem is you live in a world of ignorance. If somebody from a remote tribe comes to the US and murders somebody are we just going to let him go saying "he just didnt know our rules" Of course not. Your reasoning continues to fall apart. I also question your ability to even understand philosophy which I am going to be starting another post on in a sec

Priceless. I cannot decide if you just don't understand the logic he's explained to you---or that you're so set in your beliefs that you're purposefully confusing yourself in an effort to maintain your views as being absolutely correct. I think this is the primary problem i have with organized religion---people have such hard set views that they believe is 100% correct and is the word of God with anyone who questioning it being incorrect or not worthy of heaven.And on top of it--you accuse HIM of using messed up logic, call HIM stupid and unable to understand philosophy. I doubt you've ever taken a logic class in your life--let alone taught one. You use common logical fallacies and when confronted about it--you ignore it and keep on your merry way, willfully ignorant of your twisted logic.You don't have to agree with his ultimate conclusions--but he makes valid, logical points. In fact, Monty happens to be the first person i've ever witnessed that has ever been able to rationally discuss the bible.

[FullMontyM1 0]

Um..when you actually start using logic then we can talk...you of course have to define your variables you want to use...Your messed up "logic" isnt correct b/c you dont define belief, you dont define confess....I can confess and believe a lot of things but that doesnt make me righteous does it? No but you dont actually seem to think about what you write

Matt, you're the guy who thinks "if you don't sign up for my team" automatically and logically concludes to "you're not on my team."The logical constructions I have used in my posts are sound. The logical constructions you have used in your posts are not sound.I don't need to define "confess" or "believe," because I am using the definition the Bible uses. I am not altering the words or their meaning, I am inputing portions of the Bible into conditionals in order to show you what those portions of the Bible are ACTUALLY SAYING.

Your second part is just stupid. Yes God is bound by His word!!!! Otherwise He would be a liar!!!!

God is either a) bound by his word, or b ) all-powerful/omnipotent.Which one is it? Is God all-powerful, or is God bound by his word? If God is bound by his word, who or what binds him?

What would be the point of keepin His commandments if there was another way into heaven?

This statement, I think, illustrates what you are afraid is true. You are afraid that if there are alternate paths to Heaven other than being a Christian, then your beliefs as a Christian are called into doubt, that you have chosen unwisely, that being a Christian isn't necessary.I've tried telling you that those fears of yours are unfounded.Just because there are two ways to get to a place, does not mean that taking one way is not taking the "right" way, both ways may be the "right" way to get there. Most people have a very hard time understanding the potential of duality, so your fears are understandable.

your problem is you live in a world of ignorance. If somebody from a remote tribe comes to the US and murders somebody are we just going to let him go saying "he just didnt know our rules" Of course not. Your reasoning continues to fall apart.

This analogy has absolutely no substance. I don't understand how it even relates to what we are talking about. Monty

[Canada 0]

Monty 15 - Matt 0Oh and by the way, first to 10 wins

[Mattnxtc 0]

Matt, you're the guy who thinks "if you don't sign up for my team" automatically and logically concludes to "you're not on my team."The logical constructions I have used in my posts are sound. The logical constructions you have used in your posts are not sound.I don't need to define "confess" or "believe," because I am using the definition the Bible uses. I am not altering the words or their meaning, I am inputing portions of the Bible into conditionals in order to show you what those portions of the Bible are ACTUALLY SAYING.

What definition are you using? b/c definately not the biblical use. You use confess and belief but then dont define them...then you define belief 2 more times and try to say that are 3 things. THAT DOESNT WORK. You cant keep redefining something merely to make your thesis work. It is useless. So if you dont sign up for my team what can we conclude? Your not on my team...can I get a duh?

God is either a) bound by his word, or b ) all-powerful/omnipotent.Which one is it? Is God all-powerful, or is God bound by his word? If God is bound by his word, who or what binds him?

So your definition of God is that He can go back on His word whenever he wants? That He can "bend" the rules whenever He wants? Yeah that doesnt sound like somebody who is all knowing. Do you see how your contradict yourself? If God is all knowing, If God exists outside of time then HE KNOWS THE PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE. What you are tryin to imply is that God makes mistakes and He so He changes the rules to help othes. Do you not see a problem with this? You are tryin to say God's plan isnt perfect and that He needs to change it.

This statement, I think, illustrates what you are afraid is true. You are afraid that if there are alternate paths to Heaven other than being a Christian, then your beliefs as a Christian are called into doubt, that you have chosen unwisely, that being a Christian isn't necessary.I've tried telling you that those fears of yours are unfounded.Just because there are two ways to get to a place, does not mean that taking one way is not taking the "right" way, both ways may be the "right" way to get there. Most people have a very hard time understanding the potential of duality, so your fears are understandable.

Very Very wrong. There is 1 other way to get to heaven fullmonty and I have said it over and over. All you need to do is be righteous. And as I said before, the day you show me just one person that is righteous I will admit I am wrong. But until then Ill stick with what the bible says when it says "all men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" So should we add this to the list? You show us a righteous person? THat is the only other way to get to heaven. You are tryin to add to the bible in order to add another way. Please provide biblical evidence that would suggest there is another way to heaven? Just one verse is all I ask for.

This analogy has absolutely no substance. I don't understand how it even relates to what we are talking about.

What do you mean you dont understand? This is the argument you have been tryin to make. That if somebody has not heard of God, how can they be condemned to hell? Where as in my analogy, The remote tribesman had not heard that murder is bad so should he not be sent to jail? Same concept. Ignorance is not an excuse and you are attempting to make it one.

Monty 15 - Matt 0Oh and by the way, first to 10 wins

right. And Monty has provided anythign of value? He cant justify his own beliefs. All he can do is attempt to use logic (which he does very badly) and attempt to add to the bible verses that arent there. But hey if thats what you need to do to "win" then im glad I am losing.

[FullMontyM1 0]

What definition are you using? b/c definately not the biblical use. You use confess and belief but then dont define them...then you define belief 2 more times and try to say that are 3 things. THAT DOESNT WORK. You cant keep redefining something merely to make your thesis work. It is useless.

I've already addressed this bizarre and muddled claim. I will not waste time doing so again.

So if you dont sign up for my team what can we conclude? Your not on my team...can I get a duh?

You can get a "duh," yes. However the "duh" is that you have completely mangled logic by making this assertion. I can provide examples of how someone gets on "my team" without "signing up for my team" if you need them.

So your definition of God is that He can go back on His word whenever he wants? That He can "bend" the rules whenever He wants? Yeah that doesnt sound like somebody who is all knowing. Do you see how your contradict yourself? If God is all knowing, If God exists outside of time then HE KNOWS THE PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE. What you are tryin to imply is that God makes mistakes and He so He changes the rules to help othes. Do you not see a problem with this? You are tryin to say God's plan isnt perfect and that He needs to change it.

I am saying that a God that is omnipotent can not be bound by anything. A God that is omnipotent and omnipresent can not make a mistake. Such a God is perfect, and can do anything God wants or deems necessary. In fact, speaking of "doing" or "wants" or "deems" or "bound" or "lying" or "mistakes" is a completely pointless exercise in anthropomorphizing God. None of these concepts apply. Thus my initial point: Your claim that you are positive that there is no righteous person on the Earth is total conjecture. There is absolutely no way for you to be positive of this claim.

That if somebody has not heard of God, how can they be condemned to hell? Where as in my analogy, The remote tribesman had not heard that murder is bad so should he not be sent to jail? Same concept. Ignorance is not an excuse and you are attempting to make it one.

I never claimed that God would save and protect murderers or people with no moral code, or a total disregard for morality. So clearly, this analogy does not hold. You are presuming that God's law is only written down in one form. This is a presumption that you cannot substantiate or prove. IF God's law is found in more than one form, then people will not be ignorant of God's law if they are not ignorant of one of it's multiple forms. If they are not ignorant of God's law, through one of several forms, then they obviously can't claim ignorance of the law. This is another reason why your counter-argument fails.

And Monty has provided anythign of value? He cant justify his own beliefs. All he can do is attempt to use logic (which he does very badly) and attempt to add to the bible verses that arent there. But hey if thats what you need to do to "win" then im glad I am losing.

Add Bible verses that aren't there? Please provide quotes from my posts to substantiate this reckless, untrue claim. I have quoted the Bible extensively in response to you, both in verbatim verses and in short-hand response. I have also addressed, in detail, those verses of the Bible that you claim provide support for your antique views on God and spirituality.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

I am saying that a God that is omnipotent can not be bound by anything. A God that is omnipotent and omnipresent can not make a mistake. Such a God is perfect, and can do anything God wants or deems necessary. In fact, speaking of "doing" or "wants" or "deems" or "bound" or "lying" or "mistakes" is a completely pointless exercise in anthropomorphizing God. None of these concepts apply. Thus my initial point: Your claim that you are positive that there is no righteous person on the Earth is total conjecture. There is absolutely no way for you to be positive of this claim.

This is actually wrong. God is bound by the fact that He cannot commit sin. And to go back on your word would be sin wouldnt you think?

I never claimed that God would save and protect murderers or people with no moral code, or a total disregard for morality. So clearly, this analogy does not hold. You are presuming that God's law is only written down in one form. This is a presumption that you cannot substantiate or prove. IF God's law is found in more than one form, then people will not be ignorant of God's law if they are not ignorant of one of it's multiple forms. If they are not ignorant of God's law, through one of several forms, then they obviously can't claim ignorance of the law. This is another reason why your counter-argument fails.

all sin is equal in the eyes of God is it not? The analogy fits for a person who steals, lies, takes Gods name in vain, lusts, and so forth. Are all still sins and all are not forgiven b/c of ignorance

Add Bible verses that aren't there? Please provide quotes from my posts to substantiate this reckless, untrue claim. I have quoted the Bible extensively in response to you, both in verbatim verses and in short-hand response. I have also addressed, in detail, those verses of the Bible that you claim provide support for your antique views on God and

YOu have misquoted John 14:6 and that was only after it was quoted to you. Otherwise you have not provided any verse that supports the idea that somebody who doesnt know God can be saved. SO unless you can show me somebody who is righteous, I would say you are wrong...imagine that