Is Baptism Necessary For Salvation

[FullMontyM1 0]

The bolded is wrongJohn 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"Therefore we see that if you do not believe you are judged...You might want to reread all of John 3. You seem to exclude this from your bible. All who have not believe are judged as being from evil. Evil does not get into heaven.

The bolded portion is NOT wrong because to NOT BELIEVE you must be offered the opportunity TO BELIEVE. If you are NOT offered the opportunity TO BELIEVE then you never have the ability TO BELIEVE.All this verse says, is that if you have the opportunity TO BELIEVE and you choose NOT TO TAKE that opportunity, then you are "judged already."So...A) People who have not been offered the opportunity to believe are not governed by this statement;B) The definition of believing in Him is OPEN TO INTERPRETATION, does it mean being a Christian? Does it mean believing in Jesus but not going to Church? Do you have to be Baptised? Does it mean believing in the message Jesus brings? Does it mean A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I , J, K? There are countless interpretations of this verse. If you do not understand that there are differing interpretations of this verse, then you are not well-versed in 2000 years of Christian theology.Whenever WORDS are used to produce MEANING, those words are INVARIABLY subject to interpretation and the MEANING of those words collectively CAN NEVER be completely clear.Take the following statement:"My name is John."Alright. Which name?Is John his middle name? His last name? Or his first name?The most obvious interpretation is that John is his first name.But just because that is the most obvious interpretation, DOES NOT mean that it is the correct interpretation. To ASSUME that it is the correct interpretation is COMPLETE FOLLY, from a logical and philosophical standpoint.In the matter of interpreting verses from the Bible, the words we are interpreting are SO DRAMATICALLY less straight-forward than the simple statement, "My name is John."If we can't interpret, with absolute certainty, a statement as simple as "My name is John," how can you POSSIBLY claim to interpret with absolute certainty the words in the Bible?You will doubtless come back with the retort that these are the words of God and that you don't need anything extra, that they speak for themselves.You are wrong, they do not speak for themselves, they must be interpreted.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

The bolded portion is NOT wrong because to NOT BELIEVE you must be offered the opportunity TO BELIEVE. If you are NOT offered the opportunity TO BELIEVE then you never have the ability TO BELIEVE.All this verse says, is that if you have the opportunity TO BELIEVE and you choose NOT TO TAKE that opportunity, then you are "judged already."So...A) People who have not been offered the opportunity to believe are not governed by this statement;B) The definition of believing in Him is OPEN TO INTERPRETATION, does it mean being a Christian? Does it mean believing in Jesus but not going to Church? Do you have to be Baptised? Does it mean believing in the message Jesus brings? Does it mean A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I , J, K? There are countless interpretations of this verse. If you do not understand that there are differing interpretations of this verse, then you are not well-versed in 2000 years of Christian theology.Whenever WORDS are used to produce MEANING, those words are INVARIABLY subject to interpretation and the MEANING of those words collectively CAN NEVER be completely clear.Take the following statement:"My name is John."Alright. Which name?Is John his middle name? His last name? Or his first name?The most obvious interpretation is that John is his first name.But just because that is the most obvious interpretation, DOES NOT mean that it is the correct interpretation. To ASSUME that it is the correct interpretation is COMPLETE FOLLY, from a logical and philosophical standpoint.In the matter of interpreting verses from the Bible, the words we are interpreting are SO DRAMATICALLY less straight-forward than the simple statement, "My name is John."If we can't interpret, with absolute certainty, a statement as simple as "My name is John," how can you POSSIBLY claim to interpret with absolute certainty the words in the Bible?You will doubtless come back with the retort that these are the words of God and that you don't need anything extra, that they speak for themselves.You are wrong, they do not speak for themselves, they must be interpreted.Monty

all that you have just written is pointless. Why? John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son"So it comes down to this. You either believe or you dont. All your nonsense about " they have to be offered teh opportunity to believe" That is nonsense. All somebody has to do is start questioning their existance. Question why we are here. If you do not seek teh Lord he will judge you. Those people choose not to seek the Lord. All you can do is offer excuses:"the didnt have the opportunity""He was on an island" "He was a different religion" But using logic we can If[didnt have opportunity]-->then[did not believe]so we still go back to the fact that they didnt believe. You cannot get around it so please stop tryin. You make youself look foolish as you try to tiptoe around something you cant

[FullMontyM1 0]

All somebody has to do is start questioning their existance.

Thank you for making my original point so clear. Nothing you have said up until now supports what you are saying now, everything I have said up until now supports what you are saying now.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

Thank you for making my original point so clear. Nothing you have said up until now supports what you are saying now, everything I have said up until now supports what you are saying now.Monty

your original point? Your original point was that if they didnt know how can they be held accountable. You have not shown anything and this does not support that either. It supports that if the "seek the Lord" You are tryin to say what about those who do not seek and you have shown nothing. this really is getting boring. If you tried to debate this way on any other subject people would laugh you out of the building.

[FullMontyM1 0]

your original point? Your original point was that if they didnt know how can they be held accountable. You have not shown anything and this does not support that either. It supports that if the "seek the Lord" You are tryin to say what about those who do not seek and you have shown nothing. this really is getting boring. If you tried to debate this way on any other subject people would laugh you out of the building.

My original point was that it is possible that there are many paths to God. You denied this point. You have now agreed that there are possibly alternate paths to God, therefore, you have conceded the point.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

My original point was that it is possible that there are many paths to God. You denied this point. You have now agreed that there are possibly alternate paths to God, therefore, you have conceded the point.Monty

I conceded what? That God will come to those who seek Him? That has been my point from the startThe only way to heaven is by believing in the Son. There is no way around that. There are many ways to seek the Lord but only one way to heaven.

[FullMontyM1 0]

I conceded what? That God will come to those who seek Him? That has been my point from the startThe only way to heaven is by believing in the Son. There is no way around that. There are many ways to seek the Lord but only one way to heaven.

Either:You are trying to change what you have been arguing, in which case, there is no point in arguing with you; orYou do not understand what you are arguing, in which case, there is no point is arguing with you; orYou understand what you are arguing, and you are not trying to change what you are arguing, but you are trying to resort to hyperbole to deflect criticism of the weak points in your argument, in which case, there is no point in arguing with you.Either way, the end result is the same.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

Either:You are trying to change what you have been arguing, in which case, there is no point in arguing with you; orYou do not understand what you are arguing, in which case, there is no point is arguing with you; orYou understand what you are arguing, and you are not trying to change what you are arguing, but you are trying to resort to hyperbole to deflect criticism of the weak points in your argument, in which case, there is no point in arguing with you.Either way, the end result is the same.Monty

I have not changed my argument. I have not changed my statements I have not changed anything. From the start I have said "only way to the Father is through the Son"Lord will come to those who seek Him. You are the one tryin to avoid the fact that you cannot justify any otherway and you cannot. Only way to the Father is through the Son. Only way to righteousness is through the Son. End of story.

[KTW 0]

A common sense NO.

[FullMontyM1 0]

You're still being silly, Matt. Answer the questions I posed in the othe thread, if you want the dicussion to continue.Blanket statements and assertions of faith do not an argument make.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

You're still being silly, Matt. Answer the questions I posed in the othe thread, if you want the dicussion to continue.Blanket statements and assertions of faith do not an argument make.Monty

answered those...still waitin for you to explain how somebody who doesnt believe in Jesus can get into heaven?

[FullMontyM1 0]

answered those...still waitin for you to explain how somebody who doesnt believe in Jesus can get into heaven?

You claim that the only way for someone to get into Heaven is for them to believe in Jesus.Therefore, you must prove that this is true. I have, through a detailed examination of the evidence you provided, shown that you cannot prove this.That is all I was trying to do. I do not need to explain "how somebody who doesn't believe in Jesus can get into heaven." It's not my job, it's God's job.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

You claim that the only way for someone to get into Heaven is for them to believe in Jesus.Therefore, you must prove that this is true. I have, through a detailed examination of the evidence you provided, shown that you cannot prove this.That is all I was trying to do. I do not need to explain "how somebody who doesn't believe in Jesus can get into heaven." It's not my job, it's God's job.Monty

You have shown what? Nothing You have offered up evidence? NoYou have done nothing There is one way to the Father it is through the Son. SO if that is not true the bible is wrong. And since it isnt wrong you are wrong. WHy does it feel like im talkin to a 5th grader.

[FullMontyM1 0]

You have shown what? Nothing You have offered up evidence? NoYou have done nothing There is one way to the Father it is through the Son. SO if that is not true the bible is wrong. And since it isnt wrong you are wrong. WHy does it feel like im talkin to a 5th grader.

The irony in your post made the previous 70 posts all worthwhile.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

The irony in your post made the previous 70 posts all worthwhile.Monty

still waiting for you to show how someone else can get to heaven without knowing JesusJohn 14:6 "No one comes to the Father except through the Son"that is what you have to work with. Please show how you cannot know Jesus and get to heaven.

[FullMontyM1 0]

still waiting for you to show how someone else can get to heaven without knowing JesusJohn 14:6 "No one comes to the Father except through the Son"that is what you have to work with. Please show how you cannot know Jesus and get to heaven.

See my above post regarding why this is not the issue.Additionally, if it were the issue, then I would have the whole Bible to work with, along with 2000 years of theological writings, not just John 14:6Try againMonty

[Mattnxtc 0]

See my above post regarding why this is not the issue.Additionally, if it were the issue, then I would have the whole Bible to work with, along with 2000 years of theological writings, not just John 14:6Try againMonty

problem is this one verse crushes your entire view point. So yes no matter what you say you cannot get around it. "Only way to the Father is through the Son" You cannot get around it. Therefore you beliefs are false. Its really that simple. You can use the whole bible if you want. Will not help you get past John 14:6

[FullMontyM1 0]

problem is this one verse crushes your entire view point. So yes no matter what you say you cannot get around it. "Only way to the Father is through the Son" You cannot get around it. Therefore you beliefs are false. Its really that simple. You can use the whole bible if you want. Will not help you get past John 14:6

Your logic is ironclad, how did I not see it before!It doesn't matter how many times you throw crap against a wall, Matt. It's still a wall covered with crap.If you are content with basing your entire world-view around a single sentence (that is open to interpretation) from a Bible that contains literally thousands upon thousands of sentences, there isn't anything I can do about that.I've made my point to the rest of the readers on these forums. At this point, we are beating a dead horse. I would reccomend you relent in your mindless assault on these threads, or I -might- get a second wind .Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

Your logic is ironclad, how did I not see it before!It doesn't matter how many times you throw crap against a wall, Matt. It's still a wall covered with crap.If you are content with basing your entire world-view around a single sentence (that is open to interpretation) from a Bible that contains literally thousands upon thousands of sentences, there isn't anything I can do about that.I've made my point to the rest of the readers on these forums. At this point, we are beating a dead horse. I would reccomend you relent in your mindless assault on these threads, or I -might- get a second wind .Monty

Actually yes my logic is ironclad. It is not built on this verse but this verse makes it very clearNobody comes to the Father except trhough the Son. You are attempting to offer another way. You disagree with the bible. I will go ahead and stick to the bibleWhen you feel like offering up something of worth that you can actually justify please let me know

[FullMontyM1 0]

Actually yes my logic is ironclad. It is not built on this verse but this verse makes it very clearNobody comes to the Father except trhough the Son. You are attempting to offer another way. You disagree with the bible. I will go ahead and stick to the bibleWhen you feel like offering up something of worth that you can actually justify please let me know

Your replies have descended to the level of flaming, I hopy you are proud of yourself, flaming in the religion forums.I have offered ample evidence to support my point, and you have responded with unsubstantiated absolutes and non-answers.Monty

[KTW 0]

He is pulling your chain Monty. He can't be that wacked. That's the only explanation.

[FullMontyM1 0]

He is pulling your chain Monty. He can't be that wacked. That's the only explanation.

I hope so.Monty

[brvheart 1,752]

Is this thread still about baptism?

[Petoria 0]

Is this thread still about baptism?

Is any thread about the same thing it started out about after 50 posts in it?

[Mattnxtc 0]

Is this thread still about baptism?

No unfortunately it became about fullmonty giving unsupported beliefs. which is a shame