Is Baptism Necessary For Salvation

[Mattnxtc 0]

You can assume facts not in evidence, if you wish, but it's not going to do you much good.Let's start with John 14, same passage you quoted from:John 14:2 "In my Father's house there are many dwelling places." I read this pretty broadly, I know you don't.Jesus goes on to say, "I am the way..." as you quoted, as a direct response to Thomas, not as a general statement to all of humanity. His statement could be interpreted as you do. Or it could simply be an admonition to his Disciples to avoid false prophets they come across.John 14:21 "They who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me; and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them."This is blatantly clear. Jesus uses a what is called a conditional.Have My Commandments And Keep Them ----> Love JesusLove Jesus ----> Loved by God and JesusThere is no stipulation made, no prior conditional, that receipt of Jesus' commandments must be from Jesus or from Christians.1 Peter 4:16 "Therefore, let those suffering in accordance with God's will entrust themselves to a faithful Creator, while continuing to do good."Again, another broad encouragement to all people, not just those that have received the Gospel.John 15:12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."Does Jesus mean for this just to apply to "Christians?"The word "Christian" did not even exist when Jesus said this.John 17:20 "I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me though their word, that they may all be one."Does Jesus play semantics? Or by this statement does he mean that anyone that proclaims the good word, in the sense that God has been on the Earth and is a part of our lives, is part of the "one" he speaks of?We can go back and forth for a few weeks here I imagine.But, your statement that I "can't possibly understand the gospel even a little if you say this statement." Is horribly close-minded. And when you say this: "but according to the Bible... you are in serious jeopardy."All I have to say is:Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.I do not presume to be without sin, and neither should you.Be glad to talk with you at length about this, but don't presume I don't know what I am talking about and don't throw stones at me.Monty

Since this post came up as "defense" of montys beliefs i figured I would show how this belief does not actually line up with anythin in the bible

John 14:2 "In my Father's house there are many dwelling places." I read this pretty broadly, I know you don't.Jesus goes on to say, "I am the way..." as you quoted, as a direct response to Thomas, not as a general statement to all of humanity. His statement could be interpreted as you do. Or it could simply be an admonition to his Disciples to avoid false prophets they come across.

This could be correct if we take it on its own. Problem is we cant:John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. John 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. John 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." So we see that this clearly continues the theme. There is enough room for all BELIEVERS thats it. The others will not be there

John 14:21 "They who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me; and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them."This is blatantly clear. Jesus uses a what is called a conditional.Have My Commandments And Keep Them ----> Love JesusLove Jesus ----> Loved by God and JesusThere is no stipulation made, no prior conditional, that receipt of Jesus' commandments must be from Jesus or from Christians.

And this does nothing to help his beliefs. Why? B/c his belief is that you can get around not "knowing" Jesus. Except that we find even in this verse that we MUST know Jesus. There is no way around it. It continues the theme that Jesus is the ONLY way.

1 Peter 4:16 "Therefore, let those suffering in accordance with God's will entrust themselves to a faithful Creator, while continuing to do good."Again, another broad encouragement to all people, not just those that have received the Gospel.

Again. This just isnt even close to correct. Nobody can come to this conclusion if they actually read 1 Peter. For someone who claims to go to the greek, You didnt bother to even use a correct translation did you?NASB 1Peter 4:16 but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name. KJV - same thingYoull notice that it is not a broad encouragment to all people but to Christians. The word for Christian comes from the Greek word christianos which means "follow of Christ" So while you choose to misquote I will hold you to it that your verse which you provided (cant even figure out what text you used) is just another of yoru attempts to deceive Further 1 Peter is not written for everybody but for those who suffer in the name of Christ:1Peter 1:17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 1Peter 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 1Peter 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. Read those closely. If you think 1 Peter is an encouragement to all then you need to get your eyes checked. 1Pe 3:12 "FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS, AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER, BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL." Not very encouraging1Peter 2:21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 1Peter 2:22 WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; 1Peter 2:23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 1Peter 2:24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.again, not all inclusive but very exclusive to believers only. 1Peter 4:12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; 1Peter 4:13 but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation. Again, Not encouragement to all but to those who suffer for Christ. So 1 Peter is no where close to what you want it to be.

John 15:12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."Does Jesus mean for this just to apply to "Christians?"The word "Christian" did not even exist when Jesus said this.

Again what is the point of this? We are called to love all. When Jesus was on the cross did he curse those who were executing them? No He prayed for them. Just b/c Jesus is loving does not mean He isnt also just or do you forgetMatthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Just b/c you have love for somebody does not mean you let their sin slide by. Not according to Paul:Romans 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Romans 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; Romans 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; Romans 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. So it appears that God does not just freely forgive all but only those who believe in Jesus. So your interpretation is still not correct

John 17:20 "I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me though their word, that they may all be one."Does Jesus play semantics? Or by this statement does he mean that anyone that proclaims the good word, in the sense that God has been on the Earth and is a part of our lives, is part of the "one" he speaks of?

No and again we can go to Matthew 7Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew youSo again your "views" dont stand up to the rest of the bible. Gobears I believe I answered them all and showed how each one in fact does nothing to help him. If we are to believe what Monty says then the bible contradicts itself.

No, you don't. You provide scripture tainted and twisted by religous agenda, and so obviously spun it's borderline sickening. When a poster comes to you with a question about bears killing children, you throw out some bologna about studies showing that they were not children at all, which biblically is just not true- it's just an answer somebody else gave you to fool the masses. The hypothetical is so easy to answer from a christian point of view, and you can't pull it off. It's the simple that blows your mind because you deal in the convoluted- you have too, you have no choice. You can never accept what is front of you because your teachers are so busy telling you that what is in front of you is somehow not really what is actually there. You talk about preconceived notions but willingly work off of a source, built on and for preconceived notions. Faith is the evidence of things not seen- and in may cases the only case you can make for faith is you, who you were before and after. Thats what the true problem is- religion no longer is about change, because it's not of you, right? Saved by grace, right? Works don't matter right? Well, no, not really, because if you don't have works, well then you were not really saved, because if you were you would want to do works. O.k., good, so works do matter? Well, no, because nothing you do saves you, it's by Gods grace. You mean well, you really do I think and you try so hard to provide answers where there are none, proof where there is none, and what you fail to realize is that for some people it will never be. They cannot be persuaded. King Aggripa had Paul himself- and what was his answer? Almost. Do you really think you are going to do better when you try and tangle with Atheists, Agnostics and the like? We can't fight the good fight with logic- what we believe is not logical!! We know it to be true and we can see in other people and hopefully one day in oursleves what God can do, but it defies logic, it spits in the face of it. I guess what I am trying to say is that you try to hard to fight the unwinnable. I avoid atheist/agnostic threads for a reason- can't help em. They don't want it, and lack the ability to make the jump from seen to unseen. It doesn't make em bad people, truth is I enjoy all of there points of view and the way they get me to think on things is something that was lacking in my life for a long time, and I could try and tell them what that statement means but it would do no good- they lack the one thing that is neccesary, and that's faith, even the smallest bit of it. I cannot give them that, no matter how hard I try.

Actually my facts on the children is historical fact but you can choose to believe me or go look it up. Either way you will find im correct. And your right Lois, my pastor changes the greek text. He goes back in time and changes the greek so that he can "fool" us into believing him. You know the difference between me and you Lois. Is taht I dont read a translation and think its perfect, especially when we know that the KJV is full of holes. I dont pretend to know everything so instead I search the greek, I search the historical texts, i search church history and then I make my beliefs. You dont. You read one thing from 2000 years ago without historical context to it and u draw conclusions based on what you see today. You wont find anybody who would ever agree that what you do is correct. In fact most will laugh at what you do as being that of ignorance. Do i think it is a hassle to deal with agnostics? Of course. Do I get frustrated when people like monty add their beliefs to the bible? Of course. But I will continue to make sure that the correct gospel is out there. The one that the bible really teaches. NOt one that is made through adding personal beliefs. Lois your ignorance towards the NASB is pretty astounding though. I really think you are just afraid to admit that the NASB is the best version available in english. If you really want to be a scholar as you seem to want to be then I would suggest learning greek. Otherwise you will get no better translation than the NASB and that is a fact.

[Loismustdie 0]

Since this post came up as "defense" of montys beliefs i figured I would show how this belief does not actually line up with anythin in the bibleThis could be correct if we take it on its own. Problem is we cant:John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. John 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. John 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." So we see that this clearly continues the theme. There is enough room for all BELIEVERS thats it. The others will not be thereAnd this does nothing to help his beliefs. Why? B/c his belief is that you can get around not "knowing" Jesus. Except that we find even in this verse that we MUST know Jesus. There is no way around it. It continues the theme that Jesus is the ONLY way. Again. This just isnt even close to correct. Nobody can come to this conclusion if they actually read 1 Peter. For someone who claims to go to the greek, You didnt bother to even use a correct translation did you?NASB 1Peter 4:16 but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name. KJV - same thingYoull notice that it is not a broad encouragment to all people but to Christians. The word for Christian comes from the Greek word christianos which means "follow of Christ" So while you choose to misquote I will hold you to it that your verse which you provided (cant even figure out what text you used) is just another of yoru attempts to deceive Further 1 Peter is not written for everybody but for those who suffer in the name of Christ:1Peter 1:17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 1Peter 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 1Peter 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. Read those closely. If you think 1 Peter is an encouragement to all then you need to get your eyes checked. 1Pe 3:12 "FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS, AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER, BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL." Not very encouraging1Peter 2:21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 1Peter 2:22 WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; 1Peter 2:23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 1Peter 2:24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.again, not all inclusive but very exclusive to believers only. 1Peter 4:12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; 1Peter 4:13 but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation. Again, Not encouragement to all but to those who suffer for Christ. So 1 Peter is no where close to what you want it to be. Again what is the point of this? We are called to love all. When Jesus was on the cross did he curse those who were executing them? No He prayed for them. Just b/c Jesus is loving does not mean He isnt also just or do you forgetMatthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Just b/c you have love for somebody does not mean you let their sin slide by. Not according to Paul:Romans 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Romans 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; Romans 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; Romans 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. So it appears that God does not just freely forgive all but only those who believe in Jesus. So your interpretation is still not correctNo and again we can go to Matthew 7Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew youSo again your "views" dont stand up to the rest of the bible. Gobears I believe I answered them all and showed how each one in fact does nothing to help him. If we are to believe what Monty says then the bible contradicts itself.Actually my facts on the children is historical fact but you can choose to believe me or go look it up. Either way you will find im correct. And your right Lois, my pastor changes the greek text. He goes back in time and changes the greek so that he can "fool" us into believing him. You know the difference between me and you Lois. Is taht I dont read a translation and think its perfect, especially when we know that the KJV is full of holes. I dont pretend to know everything so instead I search the greek, I search the historical texts, i search church history and then I make my beliefs. You dont. You read one thing from 2000 years ago without historical context to it and u draw conclusions based on what you see today. You wont find anybody who would ever agree that what you do is correct. In fact most will laugh at what you do as being that of ignorance. Do i think it is a hassle to deal with agnostics? Of course. Do I get frustrated when people like monty add their beliefs to the bible? Of course. But I will continue to make sure that the correct gospel is out there. The one that the bible really teaches. NOt one that is made through adding personal beliefs. Lois your ignorance towards the NASB is pretty astounding though. I really think you are just afraid to admit that the NASB is the best version available in english. If you really want to be a scholar as you seem to want to be then I would suggest learning greek. Otherwise you will get no better translation than the NASB and that is a fact.

I highly doubt it was your pastor in particular, but defintiely those proceeding that felt the need to find a way to more neatly tell the lie. It's a fact.

Since this post came up as "defense" of montys beliefs i figured I would show how this belief does not actually line up with anythin in the bibleThis could be correct if we take it on its own. Problem is we cant:John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. John 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. John 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." So we see that this clearly continues the theme. There is enough room for all BELIEVERS thats it. The others will not be thereAnd this does nothing to help his beliefs. Why? B/c his belief is that you can get around not "knowing" Jesus. Except that we find even in this verse that we MUST know Jesus. There is no way around it. It continues the theme that Jesus is the ONLY way. Again. This just isnt even close to correct. Nobody can come to this conclusion if they actually read 1 Peter. For someone who claims to go to the greek, You didnt bother to even use a correct translation did you?NASB 1Peter 4:16 but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name. KJV - same thingYoull notice that it is not a broad encouragment to all people but to Christians. The word for Christian comes from the Greek word christianos which means "follow of Christ" So while you choose to misquote I will hold you to it that your verse which you provided (cant even figure out what text you used) is just another of yoru attempts to deceive Further 1 Peter is not written for everybody but for those who suffer in the name of Christ:1Peter 1:17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 1Peter 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 1Peter 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. Read those closely. If you think 1 Peter is an encouragement to all then you need to get your eyes checked. 1Pe 3:12 "FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS, AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER, BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL." Not very encouraging1Peter 2:21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 1Peter 2:22 WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; 1Peter 2:23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 1Peter 2:24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.again, not all inclusive but very exclusive to believers only. 1Peter 4:12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; 1Peter 4:13 but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation. Again, Not encouragement to all but to those who suffer for Christ. So 1 Peter is no where close to what you want it to be. Again what is the point of this? We are called to love all. When Jesus was on the cross did he curse those who were executing them? No He prayed for them. Just b/c Jesus is loving does not mean He isnt also just or do you forgetMatthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Just b/c you have love for somebody does not mean you let their sin slide by. Not according to Paul:Romans 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Romans 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; Romans 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; Romans 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. So it appears that God does not just freely forgive all but only those who believe in Jesus. So your interpretation is still not correctNo and again we can go to Matthew 7Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew youSo again your "views" dont stand up to the rest of the bible. Gobears I believe I answered them all and showed how each one in fact does nothing to help him. If we are to believe what Monty says then the bible contradicts itself.Actually my facts on the children is historical fact but you can choose to believe me or go look it up. Either way you will find im correct. And your right Lois, my pastor changes the greek text. He goes back in time and changes the greek so that he can "fool" us into believing him. You know the difference between me and you Lois. Is taht I dont read a translation and think its perfect, especially when we know that the KJV is full of holes. I dont pretend to know everything so instead I search the greek, I search the historical texts, i search church history and then I make my beliefs. You dont. You read one thing from 2000 years ago without historical context to it and u draw conclusions based on what you see today. You wont find anybody who would ever agree that what you do is correct. In fact most will laugh at what you do as being that of ignorance. Do i think it is a hassle to deal with agnostics? Of course. Do I get frustrated when people like monty add their beliefs to the bible? Of course. But I will continue to make sure that the correct gospel is out there. The one that the bible really teaches. NOt one that is made through adding personal beliefs. Lois your ignorance towards the NASB is pretty astounding though. I really think you are just afraid to admit that the NASB is the best version available in english. If you really want to be a scholar as you seem to want to be then I would suggest learning greek. Otherwise you will get no better translation than the NASB and that is a fact.

No, the difference between you and me is the pamphlet that told me to say a sinners prayer, I chunked it as soon as I realized that the things stated in tghere were not in the bible. You, took it, believed it, based your beliefs on it and then went on the journey of twisting the bible to make it fit, or at least blindly followed those doing the twisting.

[FullMontyM1 0]

Do I get frustrated when people like monty add their beliefs to the bible? Of course.

This is a ridiculous assertion. I have stated my position clearly. My position is that you are presuming the Bible says one thing, when it is clear that there are other possible interpretations.You are saying, "It must be A"I am saying, "It could be A or B"By necessity of definition, the more strict interpretation of the Bible REQUIRES more assumptions to be true.I am saying "we cannot presume that it must be A, because to presume that requires adding to the Bible."You are the one adding to the Bible, Matt, not I. You are, however, quite adept at accusing your opponents of doing exactly what it is that you are actually doing. It is an age-old, underhanded rhetorical device. Fortunately, for the readers of this thread, you have been clumsy in your execution of this device.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

This is a ridiculous assertion. I have stated my position clearly. My position is that you are presuming the Bible says one thing, when it is clear that there are other possible interpretations.You are saying, "It must be A"I am saying, "It could be A or B"By necessity of definition, the more strict interpretation of the Bible REQUIRES more assumptions to be true.I am saying "we cannot presume that it must be A, because to presume that requires adding to the Bible."You are the one adding to the Bible, Matt, not I. You are, however, quite adept at accusing your opponents of doing exactly what it is that you are actually doing. It is an age-old, underhanded rhetorical device. Fortunately, for the readers of this thread, you have been clumsy in your execution of this device.Monty

I know you love to use logic but seriously come on nowI say its A, I then show why it should be AYou say its A or B then fail to show why it could be A or BI clearly again show you why B isnt an option and what do you do?You resort to showing that you can do logic but still fail to support B. I hope that people noticed your failure to come up with biblical answers and instead resorting to tryin to fool them with your "knowledge". Funny how the bible tells christians thats exactly what to beware of

No, the difference between you and me is the pamphlet that told me to say a sinners prayer, I chunked it as soon as I realized that the things stated in tghere were not in the bible. You, took it, believed it, based your beliefs on it and then went on the journey of twisting the bible to make it fit, or at least blindly followed those doing the twisting.

What sinners phamplet? I take the bible for whta it is. It says were are saved by grace. That by believing in Jesus we are saved.

[FullMontyM1 0]

I know you love to use logic but seriously come on nowI say its A, I then show why it should be A

Key words, "should be."You can't show that it is 100%, positively A, you can only show that your belief that it is A is supported by certain pieces of evidence you have offered.I give the rejoinder that, while A is supported by some of the evidence, B is also supported by other pieces of evidence. I conlude then, that we can not say for certain whether A or B is the truth, and that it is open to interpretation.I don't dispute your right to interpret. I don't claim that you are wrong.I only claim that your interpretation is one of many.If you don't understand how my argument is less restrictive, and requires less addition (in fact none at all) to the Bible, then, as I have said many times before, there is little point in continuing this discussion.

You say its A or B then fail to show why it could be A or B

I don't have to prove that "it" is A or "it" is B, I only have to prove that you can't prove"it" is A.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

Key words, "should be."You can't show that it is 100%, positively A, you can only show that your belief that it is A is supported by certain pieces of evidence you have offered.I give the rejoinder that, while A is supported by some of the evidence, B is also supported by other pieces of evidence. I conlude then, that we can not say for certain whether A or B is the truth, and that it is open to interpretation.I don't dispute your right to interpret. I don't claim that you are wrong.I only claim that your interpretation is one of many.If you don't understand how my argument is less restrictive, and requires less addition (in fact none at all) to the Bible, then, as I have said many times before, there is little point in continuing this discussion.I don't have to prove that "it" is A or "it" is B, I only have to prove that you can't prove"it" is A.Monty

In this case ur B is not supported by anything and thats your problem...Though I believe Lois is wrong, at least he can piont to verses that can add to his case? ....you on the other hand are stuck saying well "we just dont know" You use a form of skepticism that is basically disregarded and now i see why. It is totally pointless to deal with this form of skepticism b/c short of God slappin u in the face you are going to believe whatever you want.

[FullMontyM1 0]

In this case ur B is not supported by anything and thats your problem...Though I believe Lois is wrong, at least he can piont to verses that can add to his case? ....you on the other hand are stuck saying well "we just dont know" You use a form of skepticism that is basically disregarded and now i see why. It is totally pointless to deal with this form of skepticism b/c short of God slappin u in the face you are going to believe whatever you want.

I did provide evidence supporting the possibility of B. The fact that you disagree with the evidence is totally irrelevant to whether or not it is evidence.Additionally, I am not claiming "we just don't know" and throwing up my hands, as you state in your post. I am saying "we can't know for certain, there are multiple possible interpretations, and it is of value to consider them all." That is a fundamentally different position from the one you erroneously attribute to me.I am not being a skeptic. A skeptic demands more evidence, after evidence has already been provided. You, sir, are the one being a skeptic. I am being open-minded and open to differing interpretations.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

I did provide evidence supporting the possibility of B. The fact that you disagree with the evidence is totally irrelevant to whether or not it is evidence.Additionally, I am not claiming "we just don't know" and throwing up my hands, as you state in your post. I am saying "we can't know for certain, there are multiple possible interpretations, and it is of value to consider them all." That is a fundamentally different position from the one you erroneously attribute to me.I am not being a skeptic. A skeptic demands more evidence, after evidence has already been provided. You, sir, are the one being a skeptic. I am being open-minded and open to differing interpretations.Monty

Theres the problem right there. You feel you provided support. I countered it with biblical passages to show that you cannot believe the bible and believe what you believe. So you are left with a few choices. Either you do not believe the bible or your beliefs are unbiblical. Your implore the same nonsense that is seen all to often today. Everybody feels christians shoudl have an "open mind". Why must a christian? b/c society tells us to? Thats where you fall, you try to please man and not God. Galatians 1:10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. You build your views on what society things shoudl be right. You can believe in option B if you want but it is not biblical and you cannot provide a verse that matches with the ENTIRE bible. Thats your problem. When you take a verse out of context you can get the bible to say lots of things. But when you take the entire bible into account your beliefs fall away.

[FullMontyM1 0]

Theres the problem right there. You feel you provided support. I countered it with biblical passages to show that you cannot believe the bible and believe what you believe. So you are left with a few choices. Either you do not believe the bible or your beliefs are unbiblical. Your implore the same nonsense that is seen all to often today. Everybody feels christians shoudl have an "open mind". Why must a christian? b/c society tells us to? Thats where you fall, you try to please man and not God. Galatians 1:10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. You build your views on what society things shoudl be right. You can believe in option B if you want but it is not biblical and you cannot provide a verse that matches with the ENTIRE bible. Thats your problem. When you take a verse out of context you can get the bible to say lots of things. But when you take the entire bible into account your beliefs fall away.

I'm not interersted in judging others people's beliefs. I do not base my views or beliefs on what society thinks should be right. I do base my beliefs on the understanding I have of God, in my heart. I speak honestly and truthfully. I -have- provided Biblical support for what I have argued for. The bolded portion of your quote is patent nonsense. It is also judgemental, and being judgemental goes against everything that I believe Christianity stands for.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

I'm not interersted in judging others people's beliefs. I do not base my views or beliefs on what society thinks should be right. I do base my beliefs on the understanding I have of God, in my heart. I speak honestly and truthfully. I -have- provided Biblical support for what I have argued for. The bolded portion of your quote is patent nonsense. It is also judgemental, and being judgemental goes against everything that I believe Christianity stands for.Monty

the bolded part is ironic b/c it also is not biblical. You have provided verses out of context that have been shown to not mean what you want them to believe. So no you do not have biblical support for your beliefsheck what you believe is the equivalent of me droppin a feather and a penny and saying gravity must not be constant b/c my one experiment says so. That seems to be your approach to the bible and it is disturbing.

[FullMontyM1 0]

the bolded part is ironic b/c it also is not biblical.

The Bible doesn't say "judge not, lest ye be judged?" Jesus doesn't warn to not judge others? What about the mote and the beam?I quoted like 10 different Bible verses/different versions of the same verse talking about judging people ealier in this thread.How can you claim part of the Christian message isn't a non-judgemental attitude?Christianity is not about feeling superior to others, or occupying a special, privileged place. It's not a private club or the suite on top of Mt. Olympus.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

The Bible doesn't say "judge not, lest ye be judged?" Jesus doesn't warn to not judge others? What about the mote and the beam?I quoted like 10 different Bible verses/different versions of the same verse talking about judging people ealier in this thread.How can you claim part of the Christian message isn't a non-judgemental attitude?Christianity is not about feeling superior to others, or occupying a special, privileged place. It's not a private club or the suite on top of Mt. Olympus.Monty

Correct christianity is not about feeling superior than others b/c we must realize that we arent better. But that has nothing to do with judging other christians. We are called to make sure other christians stay in line 1 Peter 4:15 " Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler;"and just as importantly:1Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 1Corinthians 5:13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES. Finally I turn to the entire book of Galatians. What is Galatians about? Paul wrote it in response to the Judiazers attempting to preach something not found in the bible. What did Paul do? he called them out on it and made it very clearly that it was wrong what they were doing. So please quit trying to compare apples and oranges. I am not judging you as a person but I am judging your beliefs which you try to pass off as christian beliefs which they are not. Your verses are great if you want to show that we shouldnt judge other people in terms of their actions. That is God's job. But you are wrong when you say that as a christian I am not called to make sure you teach a biblical message which so far you have not.

[FullMontyM1 0]

Correct christianity is not about feeling superior than others b/c we must realize that we arent better. But that has nothing to do with judging other christians. We are called to make sure other christians stay in line 1 Peter 4:15 " Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler;"and just as importantly:1Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 1Corinthians 5:13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES. Finally I turn to the entire book of Galatians. What is Galatians about? Paul wrote it in response to the Judiazers attempting to preach something not found in the bible. What did Paul do? he called them out on it and made it very clearly that it was wrong what they were doing. So please quit trying to compare apples and oranges. I am not judging you as a person but I am judging your beliefs which you try to pass off as christian beliefs which they are not. Your verses are great if you want to show that we shouldnt judge other people in terms of their actions. That is God's job. But you are wrong when you say that as a christian I am not called to make sure you teach a biblical message which so far you have not.

Your Peter verse regards individuals such as murderers and thieves. Don't be ridiculous.Your Corinthians verses are about PEOPLE PRACTICING INCEST - as I already pointed out further up in this threat.As for Galatians, I am NOT PREACHING ANYTHING, I am arguing that the PREACHING YOU ARE DOING is not necessarily the only interpretation of the Bible.Finally, I am not teaching a Biblical message. I am pointing out flaws in the Biblical message YOU ARE TEACHING. Monty

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Your Peter verse regards individuals such as murderers and thieves. Don't be ridiculous.Your Corinthians verses are about PEOPLE PRACTICING INCEST - as I already pointed out further up in this threat.As for Galatians, I am NOT PREACHING ANYTHING, I am arguing that the PREACHING YOU ARE DOING is not necessarily the only interpretation of the Bible.Finally, I am not teaching a Biblical message. I am pointing out flaws in the Biblical message YOU ARE TEACHING. Monty

Actually 1 Peter is a very broad going all the way down to somebody who is a "troublesome meddler" and an "evildoer". Those come from the greek words meaning a busy body and someone who does evil. So you are wrong on this one. But why woudl u want to say use the ENTIRE verse? Come on now, quit changing the bible. 1 Corinthians...we have been over this before. You seem to just disregard the verses dont you? 1Corinthians 5:11 "But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one."This is the verse directly in front of 1 Corinthians 5:12-13. I dont seem to see it being exclusive to incest do you?so you are wrong on this one too...You again narrowed down the verse to something specific when it is very general. Quit changing the bible.As for your last comment on Galatians. I love how you try to carefully choose your words. You are introducing what you believe the bible says but you arent preaching it or teaching it? So what are you doing? You are giving an opinion that you feel is correct b/c of what you think the bible says. What is that called? Hmmm....You are correct though...you are not teaching the bible b/c what you teach in now way lives up to what the bible says. I do have to ask monty...do you read the bible or just pull quotes from some source? You seem to not actually know what it says and when you continuously misquote the verses I have to wonder how much you do actually know?

[FullMontyM1 0]

Actually 1 Peter is a very broad going all the way down to somebody who is a "troublesome meddler" and an "evildoer". Those come from the greek words meaning a busy body and someone who does evil. So you are wrong on this one. But why woudl u want to say use the ENTIRE verse? Come on now, quit changing the bible. 1 Corinthians...we have been over this before. You seem to just disregard the verses dont you? 1Corinthians 5:11 "But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one."This is the verse directly in front of 1 Corinthians 5:12-13. I dont seem to see it being exclusive to incest do you?so you are wrong on this one too...You again narrowed down the verse to something specific when it is very general. Quit changing the bible.As for your last comment on Galatians. I love how you try to carefully choose your words. You are introducing what you believe the bible says but you arent preaching it or teaching it? So what are you doing? You are giving an opinion that you feel is correct b/c of what you think the bible says. What is that called? Hmmm....You are correct though...you are not teaching the bible b/c what you teach in now way lives up to what the bible says. I do have to ask monty...do you read the bible or just pull quotes from some source? You seem to not actually know what it says and when you continuously misquote the verses I have to wonder how much you do actually know?

Your most recent post is indicative of your whole strategy of debate. When you fail to succeed in dismantling the points of your opponent's argument, you attempt to discredit your opponent by accusing him of things that diminish his credibility.I have read/do read the Bible and I do understand what it says, at least so far as my interpretation goes. I do not believe that you understand what the Bible says, nor do I believe you have any clue as to how to interpret the Bible. I believe you have been instructed by other people on what to say.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

Your most recent post is indicative of your whole strategy of debate. When you fail to succeed in dismantling the points of your opponent's argument, you attempt to discredit your opponent by accusing him of things that diminish his credibility.I have read/do read the Bible and I do understand what it says, at least so far as my interpretation goes. I do not believe that you understand what the Bible says, nor do I believe you have any clue as to how to interpret the Bible. I believe you have been instructed by other people on what to say.Monty

I do not understand the bible? Then why is it that I am the one providing the biblical quotes? When did I fail at correcting you? I showed for each verse how are wrong and why. I have done more than enough to discredit your beliefs. Why is it that you say that 1 Corinthians is:

Your Corinthians verses are about PEOPLE PRACTICING INCEST - as I already pointed out further up in this threat.

when clearly that is not correct a Paul is talkin about people who: 1Corinthians 5:11 "But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one."Why does your version of 1 Peter:'

Your Peter verse regards individuals such as murderers and thieves. Don't be ridiculous.

exclude the busy bodys and evil doers? Why does your version of Galatians not match up with what Paul writes to them about? So no I am not excluding anything. More so I have called u on your "beliefs" and you choose to change the subject to tryin to say this and that when you realize your beliefs cannot hold up to scrutiny. I would think that somebody who is educated like yourself would fidn it troubling that your beliefs seem to contradict the bible.

[FullMontyM1 0]

You are exhausting, Matt. Absolutely exhausting. I have made my points a long, long, long time ago in this thread. There is no point in continuing this discussion. We've ranged from actually discussing things, to arguing over how the discussion was conducted, to the point we are at now, where I am not actually sure what we are arguing about.I -think- we are arguing about whether I am a "true believer" or someone who "reads the Bible," You are not qualified to make a determination on either of these points, and I will not lower myself to a discussion regarding them.If you want to discuss something that is of value to the rest of the readers of these fora, I would be glad to do so. But I would reccomend starting a new thread, as this one has reached a point of critical mass and is far too unwieldy to be of any use.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

You are exhausting, Matt. Absolutely exhausting. I have made my points a long, long, long time ago in this thread. There is no point in continuing this discussion. We've ranged from actually discussing things, to arguing over how the discussion was conducted, to the point we are at now, where I am not actually sure what we are arguing about.I -think- we are arguing about whether I am a "true believer" or someone who "reads the Bible," You are not qualified to make a determination on either of these points, and I will not lower myself to a discussion regarding them.If you want to discuss something that is of value to the rest of the readers of these fora, I would be glad to do so. But I would reccomend starting a new thread, as this one has reached a point of critical mass and is far too unwieldy to be of any use.Monty

No we are not arguing over whether you are a believer or not. We have been discussin whether your beliefs have any sort of justification. As I have continually shown you do not have any biblical justification for your beliefs other than when you misquote verses. You listed verses that "helped" your beliefs. I showed on each one where you were wrong and what they said. You continue to try to avoid admitting that you were wrong but thats alright anybody who has actually read the bible understands the reality of it. You came to your beliefs not based on the bible but on the notion of tryin to make everybody happy. That unfortunately isnt christianity. When you do want to explore the bible from a christian view please let me know. I would love to continue to answer your questions about the beliefs. But I ask that you please not bring unjustified beliefs to the forum. It just slows down everythingAnd the offer is still out there for everybody on the board. I already showed where Montys verses were out of context. But if I missed any or if you know of a post where he provided justification please repost it here. I am pretty sure that he did not offer any actual justification for his beliefs but I of course coudl be wrong. So the offer is out there to show just one time where montys beliefs had biblical backing for them.

[FullMontyM1 0]

No we are not arguing over whether you are a believer or not. We have been discussin whether your beliefs have any sort of justification. As I have continually shown you do not have any biblical justification for your beliefs other than when you misquote verses. You listed verses that "helped" your beliefs. I showed on each one where you were wrong and what they said. You continue to try to avoid admitting that you were wrong but thats alright anybody who has actually read the bible understands the reality of it. You came to your beliefs not based on the bible but on the notion of tryin to make everybody happy. That unfortunately isnt christianity. When you do want to explore the bible from a christian view please let me know. I would love to continue to answer your questions about the beliefs. But I ask that you please not bring unjustified beliefs to the forum. It just slows down everythingAnd the offer is still out there for everybody on the board. I already showed where Montys verses were out of context. But if I missed any or if you know of a post where he provided justification please repost it here. I am pretty sure that he did not offer any actual justification for his beliefs but I of course coudl be wrong. So the offer is out there to show just one time where montys beliefs had biblical backing for them.

As regards the bolded portion of your statement, I refer readers to the previous 7 million posts in this thread.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

This is a ridiculous assertion. I have stated my position clearly. My position is that you are presuming the Bible says one thing, when it is clear that there are other possible interpretations.You are saying, "It must be A"I am saying, "It could be A or B"By necessity of definition, the more strict interpretation of the Bible REQUIRES more assumptions to be true.I am saying "we cannot presume that it must be A, because to presume that requires adding to the Bible."You are the one adding to the Bible, Matt, not I. You are, however, quite adept at accusing your opponents of doing exactly what it is that you are actually doing. It is an age-old, underhanded rhetorical device. Fortunately, for the readers of this thread, you have been clumsy in your execution of this device.Monty

must we go around in circles or can you think up something new? I believe you posted this what 5 posts ago? The fact is thisYou cannot prove B, You cannot offer any evidence for B...all you do is offer the grand "what if B" And im sorry but what ifs dont have justification. Like I said, the offer is still out there...If anybody can find any evidence for "B" please provide it. You have what 10 pages or so to look through. I am confident that you will find nothing that supports "B" only the fact that monty really really wants it to also be B

[FullMontyM1 0]

must we go around in circles or can you think up something new? I believe you posted this what 5 posts ago? The fact is thisYou cannot prove B, You cannot offer any evidence for B...all you do is offer the grand "what if B" And im sorry but what ifs dont have justification. Like I said, the offer is still out there...If anybody can find any evidence for "B" please provide it. You have what 10 pages or so to look through. I am confident that you will find nothing that supports "B" only the fact that monty really really wants it to also be B

Ironically, the converse is true, Matt. You "really, really, really," want your POV to be the only correct POV.Unfortunately, you completely failed to establish that your interpretation is the only interpretation that can be made.On the other side, I definitively proved that there can be multiple interpretations to many verses from the Bible.My actions in doing so had -absolutely- nothing to do with desire for a certain outcome. Desire is not relevant in analysis. The only things relevant are the end results of the analytical and logical reasoning applied to the problem.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

Ironically, the converse is true, Matt. You "really, really, really," want your POV to be the only correct POV.Unfortunately, you completely failed to establish that your interpretation is the only interpretation that can be made.On the other side, I definitively proved that there can be multiple interpretations to many verses from the Bible.My actions in doing so had -absolutely- nothing to do with desire for a certain outcome. Desire is not relevant in analysis. The only things relevant are the end results of the analytical and logical reasoning applied to the problem.Monty

Yes there can be many interpretations of a lot of things when you take it out of context as you have done. Thats your main problem. You read each book/letter like it is an individual letter which it is not. The bible is one book and you dont treat it that way. Is my view 100% correct? who knows. is your view correct at all? So far no and so far I am still waiting to see any sort of evidence for it. So Ill continue to wait. You have 11 pages to look trhough to find just one peice of evidence. good luckOn a side, what is funny is that you do seem to have a concept of logic but no concept of epistemology. I would suggest taking a class or 2 on that and then you will understand why I continue to say you have no justification for yoru beliefs.

[FullMontyM1 0]

Yes there can be many interpretations of a lot of things when you take it out of context as you have done. Thats your main problem. You read each book/letter like it is an individual letter which it is not. The bible is one book and you dont treat it that way. Is my view 100% correct? who knows. is your view correct at all? So far no and so far I am still waiting to see any sort of evidence for it. So Ill continue to wait. You have 11 pages to look trhough to find just one peice of evidence. good luckOn a side, what is funny is that you do seem to have a concept of logic but no concept of epistemology. I would suggest taking a class or 2 on that and then you will understand why I continue to say you have no justification for yoru beliefs.

What you don't understand, Matt, is that I have never said that you have "no justification for your beliefs." You, on the other hand, have thrown out that particular bit of hyperbole at least 50 times in this thread.You suffer under a much higher burden of proof. You failed to meet that burden. I met my burden of proof. You have failed to provide adequate evidence to show that I "have no justification for my beliefs." I have provided justfication. You disagree with my justifications. Your disagreement does not eliminate the fact that I provided justifications.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

What you don't understand, Matt, is that I have never said that you have "no justification for your beliefs." You, on the other hand, have thrown out that particular bit of hyperbole at least 50 times in this thread.You suffer under a much higher burden of proof. You failed to meet that burden. I met my burden of proof. You have failed to provide adequate evidence to show that I "have no justification for my beliefs." I have provided justfication. You disagree with my justifications. Your disagreement does not eliminate the fact that I provided justifications.Monty

so then it should be very easy for you to show the justification. Your views seem to have made quite a few friends on here so you should have no problem showing your "justification" The problem is "justification" cant even stand up to the bible. Your views are contradicted by the bible so we are left assuming either you dont go by the bible or you feel the need to add to the bibleBut u say you have justification and im waiting to see it

[FullMontyM1 0]

so then it should be very easy for you to show the justification. Your views seem to have made quite a few friends on here so you should have no problem showing your "justification" The problem is "justification" cant even stand up to the bible. Your views are contradicted by the bible so we are left assuming either you dont go by the bible or you feel the need to add to the bibleBut u say you have justification and im waiting to see it

I've shown you justification in this thread already. You have chosen to respond with a) flawed logic; b ) straw man arguments; c) hyperbole; d) assumptions; e) flaming.I'm through with discussing this with you. I'm not going to go through the thread and copy+paste all of my posts again. Feel free to do it yourself, if you are interested in wasting your time. I am not interested in wasting my time.Monty