good tournament player

[Breaking Liberty 0]

Can anyone give me numbers on how often a solid tournament player should expect to cash in MTT's?

[timwakefield 68]

That depends on how many tables....obviously you would be cashing more on 2-table games than on 5-table games.Or did you mean large tourneys where about 10% of the field cashes?

[Breaking Liberty 0]

Yeah, large tournies.

[timwakefield 68]

Well again I don't really have an answer haha. It really depends...somebody could cash 40% of the time and make final table 1% of the time, but be doing far worse than somebody who cashes 10% of the time but also makes final table 3% of the time.Really the way to make money in tourneys is to make final tables. Otherwise you are usually making 1-4X your buy-in, but at final table you can make 100X or more of your buy in.

[blakheart 3]

I think it depends on a "good player" s style and goals. If you play a typical tight aggressive game -like a lot of people do - you should cash about 10% to 15% of the time (assuming a top 10% payout). The problem is unless you final table a couple you end up money behind. More loose aggressive players probably cash a little less but for bigger amounts, they tend to be more profitable in the long run. Pure math tells us that a typical player will cash about 10% of the time. I track dollars won versus entry fees more than cashes. That does 2 things, I focus more on trying to reach final tables rather than just cashing, and it helps when you run through a streak of 8 tournaments without a cash. Look at DN's results last year. He barely made it past the first day in most tournaments last year but still showed an overall profit in tournament play.In fact- Daniel winning a tournament in January will probably guarantee him a profitable year for 2006 without any other cashes, as opposed to the guys who just squeeked into the money.

[gobears 0]

I found this link thru one of our resident posters, Strategy.Interesting..I didn't think that the % of going broke was so high if you are strictly a tournament player.What do our math oriented posters think? (paging Copernicus...)http://community.livejournal.com/poker/446786.html

[Breaking Liberty 0]

Hmm.. So a loose aggressive style is better for tournies? I'm looking to take down the big score, not just sqeak into the money.Problem is I play a lot of low buy-in tournaments online for like $5 or $10 buy ins and it seems like I can never get anywhere unless I catch cards.I hardly ever try to make a move and the few times I do I bust out because some one is ALWAYS going to call me when I semi-bluff at pots.I flopped mid par with a gut shot today and tried to bluff the guy out cuz I knew he was weak and he called me with Top pair with a 3 kicker, in the bubble! It's like I loose my ability to push people around or pick the right time to make moves when I play online because there are no physical tells and ontop of that they are so loose.

[copernicus 0]

I found this link thru one of our resident posters, Strategy.Interesting..I didn't think that the % of going broke was so high if you are strictly a tournament player.What do our math oriented posters think? (paging Copernicus...)http://community.livejournal.com/poker/446786.html

Looks pretty reasonable.

[copernicus 0]

Hmm.. So a loose aggressive style is better for tournies? I'm looking to take down the big score, not just sqeak into the money.

LAG definitely gives you more ways to win IF you are great at post flop play and reading tells. As you note, that makes it a very tough road online, where it is very difficult to get enough of a read on players to overcome the negative implied odds inherent in loose pre-flop standards.As noted in the linked article, MMTTs can be like playing the lottery, and that fact has given me new appreciation for maniac play during low buy in rebuys. If you can quadruple the starting stack through a couple of big hands and an add-on you have quadrupled your chances of winning the first few spots compared to a freeze out. Lets say it takes 9 buy ins to do that. If my rudimentary memory of statistics is ok, the variance for buying into 9 freezeouts is 3x the variance of one freezout, and your mean return is 9x the mean return of a single freezout.In the rebuy scenario youve slightly less than quadrupled your ROI, but you have (I think) reduced your variance instead of tripling it. I'll have to play with some numbers and edit this once Im convinced you really reduce your variance, or at least dont triple it as in the freezout scenario.

[timwakefield 68]

Hmm.. So a loose aggressive style is better for tournies? I'm looking to take down the big score, not just sqeak into the money.Problem is I play a lot of low buy-in tournaments online for like $5 or $10 buy ins and it seems like I can never get anywhere unless I catch cards.I hardly ever try to make a move and the few times I do I bust out because some one is ALWAYS going to call me when I semi-bluff at pots.I flopped mid par with a gut shot today and tried to bluff the guy out cuz I knew he was weak and he called me with Top pair with a 3 kicker, in the bubble! It's like I loose my ability to push people around or pick the right time to make moves when I play online because there are no physical tells and ontop of that they are so loose.

Basically I think the best strategy is simply to take more risks in order to build a sizeable stack. Don't try to cash, try to win. You will lose more, but when you do win you will have a better chance to come in the top 5.

[shpaget 0]

There's another way to look at this:

As noted in the linked article, MMTTs can be like playing the lottery, and that fact has given me new appreciation for maniac play during low buy in rebuys.

I like rebuys for the way other people play maniacally.I cash in a good percentage of rebuys online, and in B&M casinos, but very rarely rebuy myself. In the last 5 rebuy tourneys I've been in at B&M casinos, I've won two, cashed another, and bubbled another on a bad beat. In none of those I rebought (I did add-on). The one where I finished early I did rebuy, and that tells me I just played like crap.In online rebuys I just buyin and addon, I don't rebuy, even though you're allowed to at the very beginning...like $1, $3, $5 tourneys at ultimate bet...I'll just buyin for 1500 chips, but not for the 2nd 1500. The last three I've entered I've made the final table twice (of 700+ players).I let other players increase the chip counts at my table, and then let them give those chips to me, through solid (not always tight) but very aggressive post-flop play.Although maniacal play does work for some people, I find you don't have to be the maniac...because though one or two or three maniacs may get to the cash and the final table, most give their chips to players like me, because they continue their maniacal play after the rebuy period ends.

[therrinn 0]

When we're discussing what style is better for tourneys, making the big cash, etc, I think that we often lose sight of the importance of adjusting your play based on how other people at the table are playing. Trying to outLAG the other LAG players at your table is probably not going to win you much over the long run other than a headache. In a large MTT you're going to have numerous different tables and people will be constantly moving in and out from them - you need to adjust your style accordingly. If they are playing super loose, you should tighten up, and vice versa.I feel like people lately have started to believe that there is one 'right' way to play these tournies. You need to train yourself to play in a variety of different styles well (this can mean some short term losses as you experiment with LAG, etc) so that you can mix up your game as the tournament and table conditions dictate.

[DougieG 0]

I agree the styles of those at your table is important, but in a 5 or 10 dollar multi, on stars perhaps? youre lookin at 1200 entrants. Only way to play is ULTRA LAG. I make a lot of moves, play a lot of pots early just like everyone else does. So therrinn I agree it matters what the styles are like at your table, but in general LAG is much better than TAG in a large field multi table tourney. If youre interested in playing something where TAG might work out better try smaller sites, Interpoker, UB, Absolute. Tourneys stay at a more..."manageable" size and it's a lot easier to do well without playing maniacally.